Training and Licensing

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I will repost part of what I posted in post #43....
From the USCG.....

"As to whether or not a particular vessel is responsible for the damage it creates is a question of law and fact that is best left to the Courts. For more information, contact your local Marine Patrol or State Boating Law Administrator."

Pretty much what USCG Sector Columbia River told me, so I called the Sheff office. In turn they arrested him.

 

[OldDan1943]

Similarly if you have an aid to navigation (radar, AIS, VHF, Hailer etc.) and you have it off so not using it when involved in a collision you are considered at least partially at fault.
Or if you don’t keep an adequate watch.
Or you don’t fly a anchor ball and are struck you are partially liable.
Examples abound. Some awareness of admiralty law is worthwhile. Liability can be shared. Any deviation from best practices incurs liability.

Generally speaking, the maritime court will always distribute the blame to all parties involve.
Basically, the only way you can avoid getting percentage of the blame is to, not be there at the time of the incident.

 

[Hippocampus]

Find much wisdom in post #55. Think most people are decent folks. I’m more Rousseau then Hobbes. But still think there are true egocentric jerks out there and it’s them that are responsible for the truly dangerous behavior. Licensure won’t change that. The decent people will educate themselves as to safe boating. The jerks will ignore what they’ve been taught.

 

[BandB]

Band,


What licensing do we now have in FL?

Not technically a license.

In order to operate a motorboat of ten (10) horsepower or greater, Florida law requires anyone who was born on or after Jan. 1, 1988 to successfully complete an approved boating safety course and obtain a Boating Safety Education Identification Card issued by the FWC.

Florida does not have a "boating license." The Boating Safety Education Identification Card is proof of successful completion of the educational requirements and is valid for life.​

Here's the course.

https://www.boat-ed.com/florida/?ca...DVABM0LLHP9rWTwq7OaqW8b_qs6giQthoCIwwQAvD_BwE

 

[jgwinks]

Quite a few states have that. They started with the youth certificate, 12-16 years, and expand the upper limit every year. Eventually they'll have everyone. A lot less traumatic than requiring everyone to get a cert all at once. USCGAux, USPS, and commercial schools couldn't handle that kind of demand.

 

[Lollygag1]

We are part of the USCGAux and teach a safe boating course. Anyone born after 1985 is supposed to take it but there is no enforcement especially for PWC. I enjoy teaching the new boaters and did the course myself when we got into boating.

 

[jgwinks]

Generally speaking, the maritime court will always distribute the blame to all parties involve.
Basically, the only way you can avoid getting percentage of the blame is to, not be there at the time of the incident.

Pretty much the way it works. On the street, some one runs a red light and hits you, they get all the blame. On the water, YOU LET THEM RUN THE RED LIGHT and you get half the blame. Might not be fair in all cases, but it's the law. That's the difference between "Right of Way" and "Stand On/Give Way". Want to open that discussion again?

 

[OldDan1943]

Pretty much the way it works. On the street, some one runs a red light and hits you, they get all the blame. On the water, YOU LET THEM RUN THE RED LIGHT and you get half the blame. Might not be fair in all cases, but it's the law. That's the difference between "Right of Way" and "Stand On/Give Way". Want to open that discussion again?

And our choices are;
A. which is the best anchor
B. what makes it a trawler
C. historic maritime court decisions that seem unfair

 

[BandB]

Pretty much the way it works. On the street, some one runs a red light and hits you, they get all the blame. On the water, YOU LET THEM RUN THE RED LIGHT and you get half the blame. Might not be fair in all cases, but it's the law. That's the difference between "Right of Way" and "Stand On/Give Way". Want to open that discussion again?

I would say 90% of all maritime collisions both parties deserve some blame. There is a burden of avoiding the accident. We see that less often on the roads but failure to stop or slow to avoid an accident is chargeable there as well and courts often split the responsibility in the civil cases.

 

[jgwinks]

I would say 90% of all maritime collisions both parties deserve some blame. There is a burden of avoiding the accident. We see that less often on the roads but failure to stop or slow to avoid an accident is chargeable there as well and courts often split the responsibility in the civil cases.

On the street if you said you saw him coming but kept going anyway because you had the green light, you'd be charged. So don't say that. On the water not seeing him coming is a violation in itself. (Proper lookout) Stand on vessel must take action if the give way doesn't. Maybe all you have time for is to sound five short on the whistle, but you must at least do that.

 

[Hippocampus]

Was told of a case where jet skier was slaloming through a mooring field at high speed and hit a moored boat in the middle of the field. He broke his neck. Admiralty court assigned blame to the moored boat due to absence of flying the appropriate day signal. Now come on how did this contribute to this event? This was no accident but rather antisocial, stupid behavior by the PWC operator. However, after hearing this we do fly a black ball.

 

[OldDan1943]

If we have gone through driver's ed and have a vehicle license does not mean we dont do dumb stuff, on purpose.
Remember the days when we used to think, "I am a teenager, I am invincible."? Most of us survived.

 

[steve Dublin]

The Basic course helps

https://www.boat-ed.com/boating_law/



In the USA, 36 states have taken the important step of mandating some form of educational requirements for operating a boat or PWC on state waters.

As a holder of a USCG 100 ton Masters License and a former instructor at Chapman's Sea School and the USCG-Aux, I agree that even the Basic course helps. While teaching sound signals, I would often get the complaint from the class that no-one else out there knows those signals. My standard response was: Perhaps, but if you give them 5 short blasts of your air horn at least you've got their attention and they are no longer watching the wet T-shirt contest on shore.
Cheers Steve Dublin

 

[psneeld]

AT LEAST 5 short blasts per the rules.... I feel that continuing, more boaters start paying attention when your whistle blowing nears continuous....

 

[Hippocampus]

Over time have had conversations with insurance brokers, marine professionals and other cruisers about just this subject. Some things become clear.
In all the assessments of claims made and deaths there are certain subsets more at risk.
There are more deaths the smaller the boat. This holds true even when reported per capita. It’s not due to there being more small boats.
There are more claims the faster the boat. One would think the larger boats crossing oceans would have higher claims made but it’s the faster coastal boats. Similarly there are more total losses and deaths per capita coastal then near shore,then offshore, then voyaging. Counterintuitively it seems from what I can gather it’s probably safer to cross oceans then to put equal miles coastal or near shore. Guess with modern weather routing and the good qualities of recreational boats having the risk of collision or grounding lowered explains this.
I know from experience to be much more nervous around PWC, small open boats , trailer boats or center consoles than larger craft. The one exception is charter boats. Know to expect the unexpected. Find either from experience (best), courses (second) or reading someone in a cruiser is more likely to be cognizant of colregs and follow them. Look at the population on this site. Think it would be most rare anyone reading this post would be impolite or engaged in dangerous behavior. Licensing us would make little difference. Perhaps licensure aimed at the subset who produces the risk and is at risk might help. An alternative would be via insurance. Without a power squadron course (or equivalent) and passing a test you can’t get insurance. Without insurance you can’t get state registration. Without a state sticker you can’t use a ramp or get fuel. Premiums rise or fall depending your boating history.only liability insurance would be required. In short a system quite similar to other motor vehicles. Documented vessels not requiring state registration would not be included but could be dealt with via a different mechanism.

 

[backinblue]

After 4 years of cruising the East Coast, Bahamas and Caribbean I am a strong supporter of mandatory training and licensing of boat operators.

The reason are listed below and are a combination of ignorance and rudeness. It seems many boaters leave common sense and courtesy at the docks when they begin boating.

1. Many center consoles, heavily engined, love to blast through anchorages snd mooring fields disregarding wakes, occasional swimmers and small dinghies that may be underway.

2. Many recreational fishing boats claim right of way anchoring inside marked channels. Some insist they take right of way precedent because they are trolling.

3. Many “party boats” play loud music in anchorages and mooring fields with associated drinking and yelling until wee hours oblivious to others.

4. Many small power boaters love to zig and zag at high speed in close proximity to other boats leaving their intentions unknown. Seems that right of way rules and good judgement fail them.

5. Many boaters do not actually monitor their marine radios even though they are sprouting VHF antennas.

6. Too many dinghies run through mooring fields and anchorages at high speed at night and without lights.

As a general rule I stay off the ICW and away from other popular recreational boating locations on weekends and holidays where it seems like a dangerous free for all.

I am sure others could add to this list. The problem is the issues identified are not uncommon which is a major concern. In fact with the growing popularity of boating during the pandemic these concerns may be trending.

While nobody is without an occasional error or lapse of judgement, I would solicit other forum member views.

Most would agree with all of your points. The problem is that licensing won't fix them, just like licensing car drivers doesn't prevent anyone from breaking the laws. Many of your points are true and common sense but may not even be covered in a boating class.

 

[psneeld]

http://www.boatingmag.com/boatingsafety/dont-become-recreational-boating-fatality-statistic

That was a slight uptick from the three years from 2013 to 2015, but continued a trend: fatalities in each year since 2012 have been lower than in most years from 1997 to 2011. (The biggest improvements have been in motorized boats.) Accident and injury rates have declined too.

From what I have read, the decreases have been attributed to several factors...but mostly the requirement by states to obtain a safe boating certificate. The start in NJ was initially to reduce PWC accidents that were out of control. Because the requirement seemed to be effective, it became mandatory for all boat operators.

 

[backinblue]

I live in CT and a Coast Guard safety course and certificate have been a requirement for as long as I can remember. I just assumed it was the same in most states, but apparently not.

 

[garychurch]

Hippocampus...Good well thought out and cogent response. Thank you.

 

[OldDan1943]

Also, I think all states have established a minimum age for operation PWC.

 

[Blissboat]

Ignorant boaters are like fertilizer - when widely dispersed, the risks are low. Too much in one place, and conditions can become explosive, especially when you add fuel. That's one reason why regulating recreational boaters at the state level makes more sense than a federal standard and federal enforcement.

During my fifty-plus years on the waters, recreational boating has grown immensely. In my state of Florida, anyone with a checkbook or credit card can instantly become a boater. The result is an increasing percentage of boaters who are inexperienced. An inexperienced boater is very likely an ignorant boater.

Stupidity is incurable, but ignorance can be fixed. That's what mandatory boater education and licensing is for. Fifty years ago, I was against it. Now I am all for it, and not just because I've changed. The world has changed.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

boating class and required AIS (transceiver) for every vessel with a motor?

How far do we go?

 

[High Wire]

Online testing for anything is a sad joke. There is nothing stopping the exam taker from being coached to the correct answer choice other than his/her own honor. Someone else can sign in and take the entire exam for that matter. NJ requires a proctored exam for the Boating Safety Certificate BUT accepts other states certificates that allow online testing.

 

[Hippocampus]

Agree. It’s kind of like the lower levels of US captain. Self attested and no practicum. On rare occasions have hired US captains. They made some of the worst crew and wouldn’t hire one to serve as an actual captain unless there was other credentials or recommendations to strongly support that decision.Please note I’m not talking about commercial licenses actually used for commercial purposes or stwc. I have the utmost respect for those mariners. Rather the hobbyist or person who does an occasional delivery. Some are excellent. Some not so much. They’re having a captains license isn’t helpful in distinguishing between the two. On the the other hand having a “yacht master” is meaningful. An actual practicum. Someone watching you and making you show you’re competent in the real world.

Until there’s fully autonomous vehicles think a road test is a good idea. Think,some variation isn’t a bad idea if licensing is going to be done for boats. Remember taking boating courses on the computer. They included parts which simulated crossings, chart and instrument reading. Even that would serve.

 

[Shrew]

I live in CT and a Coast Guard safety course and certificate have been a requirement for as long as I can remember. I just assumed it was the same in most states, but apparently not.

NOPE. Just an NASBLA exam with a passing score of 80% or higher. While a course is recommended, it is not required unless you fail the exam. The exam CAN be a USCG Aux or US Power Squadron course, but they are not required.
The recommendation is that course meet NASBLA standards and approval.

https://portal.ct.gov/DEEP/Boating/Certification/How-to-get-a-certificate-to-operate

https://portal.ct.gov/DEEP/Boating/Education/Boating-Classes2

 

[backinblue]

NOPE. Just an NASBLA exam with a passing score of 80% or higher. While a course is recommended, it is not required unless you fail the exam. The exam CAN be a USCG Aux or US Power Squadron course, but they are not required.
The recommendation is that course meet NASBLA standards and approval.

https://portal.ct.gov/DEEP/Boating/Certification/How-to-get-a-certificate-to-operate

https://portal.ct.gov/DEEP/Boating/Education/Boating-Classes2

Hmmm, when I read the link you posted it says you must attend an 8-hour course. See following FAQs:

How long is the basic boating course?
The boating course is an eight-hour course.

What are the basic boating course requirements?
You must attend all eight-hours and pass the proctored exam. You must score eighty percent (80%) or higher to get a diploma. The DEEP taught boating course is combined with the personal watercraft course and leads to a Certificate of Personal Watercraft Operation (CPWO).

 

[na232]

Amen to that.

 

[na232]

When I was sailing into Government Cut in Miami, motoryachts (super yachts) were screaming past me and throwing huge wakes on me. These yachts were captained by professional captains. They are licensed. It's not the license that helps stop this, it's common courtesy.

 

[backinblue]

When I was sailing into Government Cut in Miami, motoryachts (super yachts) were screaming past me and throwing huge wakes on me. These yachts were captained by professional captains. They are licensed. It's not the license that helps stop this, it's common courtesy.

Agreed, it's similar to what I said in an earlier post.

 

[cardinaltlee]

I am a licensed commercial pilot. All pilots have to have an FAA issued license and 99% of them are very careful and will not risk losing that license. We would have fewer problems if all people that operated a boat had to have extensive training to receive a license. We would eliminate those people that were not willing to spend the time and money to be a licensed boat operator and the people that have a license would work harder to keep it.