Training and Licensing

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This is a very interesting thread. There have been, in my humble opinion, a lot of valid points made on both sides of the licensing issue that I agree with. for example:
I often felt like the trip down the ICW was one of the most dangerous legs of a blue water cruise.
I've been "attacked" by what I consider the equivalent of a motorcycle gang on PWCs while making landfall at Government Cut.
I've had to dodge numerous charted catamarans in the BVIs who' crew didn't seem to know the first thing about sailing.
And yes the Coast Guard and Fish and Wildlife are seriously underfunded for enforcement (although I have been boarded several times by the USCG while flying the quarantine flag)
I do have to take issue with the critique of the value of the USCG licensing.
The USCG cannot afford to take a check ride with every applicant. So they structure their exam questions in a manner so that the applicant must actually know the material in order to pass. At the very least, a holder of even a 6 pack or 50ton knows:
The rules
How to read a chart
How to navigate by "dead reckoning if his electronics fail
Basic meteorology & curtesy afloat
Obviously, the license is no silver bullet. Just look at the recent duckboat incident But it is certainly worthwhile.
I no longer teach at a sea-school, so "I have no dog in this fight".
Cheers Steve Dublin
 
Steve- this is want I know. In 35+ years have used paid crew 4 times (all US certified captains). Have had many more serve as unpaid crew as they needed days at sea or transport. They have been nearly universally been the worse crew ever. One was a closet drunk and after being waked by a VLCC mid ocean lost so much faith in him he was taken off the watch rotation. Another gave me constant back talk after our weather router told us to slow down and divert in order to miss out on 50-60kts winds and associated seas. We did divert and hoved too for 7 days then had a safe and gentle transit. But he was a constant thorn and tried his best to ferment trouble in the other crew ( my wife and a friend). On one trip week before leaving genset failed. Didn’t need it for passage but wanted to have it and an awesome post boat show deal was offered on a Northern Lights. So had it installed at Hinckley. Then weather closed down so we were running late. Crew explained their limitations time wise. Weather remained closed so delayed another 3 days and still got whacked crossing Jersey coast. Crew lefted in Norfolk. I wanted to go to Antigua. Hired two licensed captains to help me through the ditch to Oriental. Both were total idiots. Scratched up my stainless under the roller to windlass. Ripped off my MOM-8. Banged up my interior. I couldn’t let them stand watch alone. Sleepless transit trying to prevent them from breaking stuff. Total jerks.
I have tens of thousands of ocean miles and tens of thousands of coastal. I’ve captained and crewed on all different types of boats. People get into trouble due to
Number One EGO
Two lack of experience leading to anxiety and poor decision making.
Three ignorance.
I’d rather have a totally inexperienced lady who will listen and follow instructions as stated as crew than a US captain.
I’d rather have someone with a good attitude, a sense of humor, and commonsense than assume seaman like behavior as a result of courses taken.
I continue to view anything under a 100T as totally worthless and rather see a yacht master or actual recreational or commercial experience. Some of my best crew as been commercial. A gentleman who ran fire boats in NY harbor. Another out of Woods Hole Oceanographic. Another a ex navy ring knocker. But completely disappointed that licensure says anything about competence except in very select circumstances.
 
I have the same opinions of doctors and judges...... the VERY few I have met are scary.


And but for a few, their ego carries over to their boating.


..........................:)facepalm:)................................
 
psneeld said:
Actually it's not a USCG regulation that I can find except for vessels over 1600 ton. It's usually state or local.


The federal law is negligent operation and wake damage can be an included issue...but getting the USCG to respond to wake issues is usually not successful in my experience.


Somewhat explained better around post #43.
Click to expand...

Most of the ICW is also not a no wake zone. Don't ignore some responsibility on the part of those who build docks on the ICW. As psneeld states, wakes are generally state and municipal issues.

Now, I think there's another option toward improving the safety of boating. Note I say "improving" not totally making it safe. I strongly feel we should have mandatory liability insurance on all boats, just as most states have it on cars. Yes, I know we still have uninsured motorists, but that's another issue that should be addressed. We all have to pay for uninsured motorists as we would for uninsured boaters, but whether we realize or not, we're actually paying on our policies already to make up for those without insurance. Insurers do assess risks of individual policyholders and they can also do so based on non boating information such as criminal records and driving records.
 
based on articles and legislation...North Carolina...(which includes a lot of waterways) seems a little peeved at homeowners that erect "non-official" no wake zones. So there is some mentality that never creating a wake is not a religious commandment.
 
Sea miles

Hippocampus said:
Steve- this is want I know. In 35+ years have used paid crew 4 times
Click to expand...
etc.

With tens of thousands of sea miles (count again) why in the world would you hire a captain? Quite honestly, with a basic knowledge of tides and currents, wind, right of way, and the ability to read charts, anyone with even intermediate knowledge can do the ditch.
 
DaveGibson said:
etc.

With tens of thousands of sea miles (count again) why in the world would you hire a captain? Quite honestly, with a basic knowledge of tides and currents, wind, right of way, and the ability to read charts, anyone with even intermediate knowledge can do the ditch.
Click to expand...

People run aground doing the ICW every day, people with plenty of seatime. I think it shows wisdom on Hippocampus' part to use a captain for unfamiliar areas and types of navigation. It's like using pilots in ports which commercial captains often must do. We had plenty of captain experience with us when we cruised Alaska, but we found the use of a local captain/pilot to be of immense benefit to us.

Precaution is always of value. When we do hit the ICW, we will often check with tow captains to get the most current local knowledge. Could we go without it? Of course, but it sure is nice to get information on shoaling that is new within the past couple of days and not yet on any advisories.
 
Hi Lee (Hippocampus)
It sounds like you are in the sailboat delivery business. I will admit that the Sail Endorsement on a USCG ticket is pretty meaningless. It just shows you recognize some nomenclature. It in no way, shape or form means that you would make a good hand on a "thorny path" delivery to the Caribbean where you are often sailing close hauled while pounding through 6 foot seas. You are in a niche business with special requirements. I spent most of my spare time (for about 40 years) racing and cruising sailboats so I can empathize.
It was my observation that most sea-school attendees were kids that wanted to work daddy's Sportfish or Vets with boats and some GI bill time to use up. Most had very few hours and practically no blue-water hours. But the course served their purpose well.
Like Dave, I wondered why, with your experience, you even looked for licensed captains
I always found it easy to find good hands that wanted to sail south (sailing back was easy).
 
I taught captains licensing for 5 years up through 100 ton masters and towing.


While I agree most had little to no blue water experience...probably near half were not kids. Many were guys retiring and looking to run small charters or get a part time job as supplemental retirement.


Most had spent most of their life on the water....they had lots of boat handling experience but little "professional level" awarness of rules, Navaids, survival, etc......
 
Alcohol on board

I concur with Old Dan 1943 - My “orientation” pages for guests states no alcohol until docked for the night. My principal thought is balance. It takes just a little alcohol to affect balance, and combining that with wind, waves and wakes incrementally increase the risks of MOB, a fall from the steering station down steps to the galley or head, or fly bridge ladder. Slightly beyond that is failure to identify a kayak before dawn or heading into the glare of a brilliant sunset, mishandling docking in a crosswind, etc. So, that’s my choice on my boat. Part of that choice is serving as an Expert Witness in litigation and a thorough understanding of legal concepts of “Due Care”, “risk mitigation”, and “disclosure”. Having a policy, disclosing risks, mitigating risks, and exercising demonstrable due care are gifts of love/friendship to guests, and liability management.

Orientation also identifies who is responsible for fixing a clogged head due to too much paper....
 
When I was delivering, my contract stated no alcohol aboard. Period. It proved a good choice. One of my earliest Nordhavn deliveries was with an older couple who had cruised the south pacific 30 years prior in a sailboat and wanted to recapture the experience. Turns out he was a total alcoholic and went into DTs on the trip so I had to drop him in San Francisco. Had there been alcohol aboard, I don't think it would have gone well. In hindsight, I'm surprised he didn't hide some aboard, but he thought it was a wise idea and respected me for it.

Interestingly, a couple weeks after I'm done, I get a call from Dan Streech, president of PAE. He's a bit sheepish wondering how the trip went since he hadn't heard from me. I apologized profusely for not catching him up, but I hoped on to another delivery almost immediately after dripping the boat in PNW

Turns out the drunk guy was a huge pita throughout the build and commissioning process. The commissioning yard in SoCal banned him from their grounds, and would stop working on the boat the moment he crossed the entrance. The PAE commissioning guys didn't fare much better

PAE had a few delivery captains they uses regularly. They didn't want to burn a bridge with them with a difficult/impossible customer, so they tossed the new guy (me) a bone. The delivery went well, I did fine with the couple, and PAE were impressed. It really launched my delivery career.

I've said it before, I've been super lucky. Who would think that bumping into a drunk would be a lucky thing.

Peter
 
Been very lucky with crew in general. Times I’ve resorted to paid crew were for the usual reasons. The ICW experience was due to time limitations of my passage crew. We expected to leave from Newport and than next stop Antigua but weather intervened. I was able to get the boat to Antigua eventually but to make that happen it was safer and better to leave from Oriental. I’m a big believer in “schedules kill”. I won’t get on a boat as crew nor captain a boat if I feel pushed by schedules to do something I feel is unsafe. Another occasion was a expected crew got sick so bailed on very short notice. A close friend who is a professional captain recommended someone he knew who was on the same island we were leaving from so I took him. I won’t leave short handed. Want at least 3 and feel four is better in case one doesn’t work out or get ill or injured. Things I’ve learned. You are not that important. Life goes on just fine in your absence. No reason to be pushed by demands external to the boat. Experience is the real teacher but you or someone else could be doing something wrong or not the best way for decades without knowing it. Always be open to learning. For that to happen put your ego away. You find great wisdom in the most unexpected places.
I think MDs make lousy pilots and won’t fly with colleagues. Don’t want to auger in. But find other than the occasional surgeon they’re fine on a boat. Find engineers and tradesmen are usually just fine as well. My preference is ex navy or commercial in general. Usually have tried to always take a newbie. Think the more people who get passionate about blue water the better. Try very hard to mix current and past careers. Makes for more interesting conversations if people have different backgrounds and you learn new stuff. Will never take a married couple unless they’re close friends of ours. Makes for an us and them which has no place on a boat.
Still, it’s rare to need crew but insurance often requires it. Used to single. Now realize it’s just unsafe and should be avoided regardless that it’s basically being a thing of the past due to insurance. Totally happy being mom and pop with occasional live lumber. Think that’s the best. That’s one of the reasons we want the smallest boat that serves our program.
 
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At the risk of hijacking this thread...
I'm a Newb - certifiable.
I ran a bass boat with my dad in my teens. Took and passed my ASA 101 a decade or so ago.
I'm not an idiot (many would argue!). On land I'm the guy in the far right lane, doing the speed limit, and my lane change indicator is a compulsory action.
I'll be taking the local (Washington State) boating safety course, but I'm looking for advice on what to do next.
We'll have a 42 trawler in December and the main use will be a liveaboard.
That being said, I'd like the education to be run her through the Puget Sound safely.
Suggestions (other threads I missed?)
'preceiate it.
 
SeaStarDream said:
At the risk of hijacking this thread...
I'm a Newb - certifiable.
I ran a bass boat with my dad in my teens. Took and passed my ASA 101 a decade or so ago.
I'm not an idiot (many would argue!). On land I'm the guy in the far right lane, doing the speed limit, and my lane change indicator is a compulsory action.
I'll be taking the local (Washington State) boating safety course, but I'm looking for advice on what to do next.
We'll have a 42 trawler in December and the main use will be a liveaboard.
That being said, I'd like the education to be run her through the Puget Sound safely.
Suggestions (other threads I missed?)
'preceiate it.
Click to expand...

It's been 15+ years since I've bumped into Linda Lewis (she and I overlapped at TrawlerFest before PMM aquired). But she is a very good instructor. If you have a spouse who is interested in learning too, schedule a separate lesson for them. I promise, best to keep you separate for a while.

https://www.privateboatinginstruction.com/

Congrats on your new boat and lifestyle.

Peter
 
The US Power Squadron offers boating courses as we as in person courses at Trawler Fest. I would suggest you take advantage of Captain Courses offered by the Mariners Learning System.

While these are all good from operating rules and regulations the real boating challenge operating a 40’+ Trawler is learning your unique boat systems from HVAC to water makers to plumbing to engines to electrical and electronics.

If you don’t know how these system work you cannot diagnose problems and cannot repair them since boat maintenance and repair is a major issue with live aboard boats.
 
USCG Aux Boating Skills and Seamanship
Then Basic Coastal Navigation course then Advanced Coastal Navigation course.
 
I'm not as familiar with USCG Aux courses but know the USPS (now) ABC curriculum and courses very well.
The ABC courses are very well done and although taught by volunteers they usually are experienced and knowledgeable.
I'd say join a local ABC Chapter and you will quickly expand your network of experienced boaters with common interests.
You can look at the ABC education offerings online but there are many including boat handling, navigation, engine maintenance, electronics and weather. Many (not all) chapters are expanding their education to include on the water component as well as class room. With the technology toay and Covid many have also offered remote classes as well.
 
Bacchus said:
I'm not as familiar with USCG Aux courses but know the USPS (now) ABC curriculum and courses very well.
The ABC courses are very well done and although taught by volunteers they usually are experienced and knowledgeable.
I'd say join a local ABC Chapter and you will quickly expand your network of experienced boaters with common interests.
You can look at the ABC education offerings online but there are many including boat handling, navigation, engine maintenance, electronics and weather. Many (not all) chapters are expanding their education to include on the water component as well as class room. With the technology toay and Covid many have also offered remote classes as well.
Click to expand...


ABC has been pretty good, but seems like it's going down hill. One of the local chapters here in St. Pete has closed and another, the membership is dwindling and no one gets out on the water! So, not much training, excepting some classroom stuff.
 
Seevee said:
ABC has been pretty good, but seems like it's going down hill. One of the local chapters here in St. Pete has closed and another, the membership is dwindling and no one gets out on the water! So, not much training, excepting some classroom stuff.
Click to expand...
Agree... membership has been declining just like every other club / organization. We've seen consolidations of squadrons / clubs and thankfully ours has been successful at maintaining steady membership.
The other part of the equation is very few members arevwilling to step up and take the helm... most want to N take courses but fewer interested in becoming instructors or filling leadership positions for a few years. Doing on the water traing had been a big plus for us. We actually did it " off the books" before it was even permitted and others have seen the success and anxious to copy it. There are some hurdles to overcome to be covered by insurance but they are manageable.
 
Continue to believe licenses will do nothing to increase safety but enforcement with associated fines would help. As a prior boater said “it’s all about the money honey”. Fines and incarceration if bodily injury occurs would effect the culture of the egocentric low fliers. That has impacted driving behavior to some extent. Unfortunately even there the enforcement of DUA is quite spotty both in catching individuals and not insisting upon incarceration for repetitive violations or those resulting in bodily harm or death. Tort actions however have an additional effect as well as impact upon insurancability. Think you will always have irresponsible tort proof people but only with enforcement and suit liability will behavior change. To that end given how thin LEO is a cellphone or other video should suffice as evidence. Such videos could be submitted to law enforcement. Then they decide if they should monitor that area more closely to direct and personally collect evidence of infractions or if there’s strong enough evidence collected by non law enforcement folks indict on that evidence alone. Penalties could included lose of driving privileges, seizure of vessels, fines and incarceration. Virtually all drivers are licensed. Effect of licensing has little impact on violations. Risk of fines, financial penalties, lose of privileges and incarceration does.
 
Many boaters were surprised to learn, driving a boat under the influence of alcohol goes on your auto driver's license too
 
OldDan1943 said:
Many boaters were surprised to learn, driving a boat under the influence of alcohol goes on your auto driver's license too
Click to expand...

Depends on the state.

In Chattanooga, TN, Riverbend Festival is a huge festival. It's held on Lake Nickajack, but most boaters are on Lake Chickamauga. After a day at the festival many were drunk and they had to lock back to Chickamauga. Local law enforcement was waiting and mad hundreds of arrests. Breathalyzer and hauling them off. This was around 1990 or so from what I was told. However, there was one problem. No TN law applicable to boating on the water and breathalyzer. All cases tossed, but law changed by the next year.

Growing up and being very good friends with all the game wardens on our lake in NC, an interesting observation they made and I observed. The majority they were arresting for DUI on the water, already were without driver's licenses due to DUI's on land. Oddly, at that time, a road DUI didn't prevent operation of a boat. It may now. But the threat to driver's licenses was meaningless. Now, jail held greater meaning. It seems if you're drunk and your thought process is such that you're still going to drive though, then the threat of losing your license never really crosses your mind and most boating arrests I saw were far over the limit. There were some so high that they had to wait and retest to get them within the range of their equipment and some at levels that conventional wisdom falsely believed you would die.
 
In some states there is no open container law on boats, so drinking while driving is not illegal, just BWI.

The USCG would have no authority....at least last I heard.
 
psneeld said:
In some states there is no open container law on boats, so drinking while driving is not illegal, just BWI.

The USCG would have no authority....at least last I heard.
Click to expand...

Perhaps they can detain you until LEO show up???
 
OldDan1943 said:
Perhaps they can detain you until LEO show up???
Click to expand...

Even then, if not BWI and no local or state open container law, what law have you broken?

In NJ, even in a car it is a $200 fine last I heard, nothing more.
 
psneeld said:
Even then, if not BWI and no local or state open container law, what law have you broken?

In NJ, even in a car it is a $200 fine last I heard, nothing more.
Click to expand...

Plus points
 
OldDan1943 said:
Plus points
Click to expand...

No points as it is not a vehicle violation....it's just an open container not on private property.

Believe me, I had to know the laws as a USCG guy and a private drinking boater. :D

Not to say yesterday they changed the law.
 
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How did we change from DUI to open container?

And we do a lousy job in most states on handling DUI's. Many repeated convictions, then no license and then convictions of driving without a license. A few states are more serious. Just like driving without license and driving without insurance.

I knew a girl years ago from another state (wouldn't have had license in NC) and she had three speeding tickets within the previous 18 months, all for speeds over 85 mph (I think one around 90, one around 110 and one over 130). She said she just let her lawyer deal with them and paid whatever it cost. I was appalled.

I find it funny sometimes as we talk about better regulating boating, since we do just a lousy job of handling driving on our roads.
 
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