Training and Licensing

[OldDan1943]

6 Jan - 2021
Miami

https://www.local10.com/news/local/...ing-following-boat-crash-near-crandon-marina/

 

[NCheaven]

Thanks for so many great comments on this important subject!

I concur with most training and enforcement suggestions. Certainly 100% of boaters, sail and motorized, including PWs, should be required to take the ABC offered by numerous associations. On line should qualify on a temporary basis until the COVID matter is solved. Classroom training is the minimum requirement after that. New boat owners in command with HP in excess of 100 hp should have boat handling certification
from USPS, USCGA or state wildlife commission, unless the new owners can document at least 25 hours of helmsmanship experience, with 2 witness attestations licensed boat owners. Boat dealers would find it advantageous to assist in providing helmsmanship experience opportunities. Obviously, this is a weak control, but hopefully most boat operators who provide that experience to the prospective new owner would feel some obligation to be honest about that. Providing false statements would make them liable for injuries and damage.

The key to this is the Insurance Companies! Their influence can help accomplish this goal. It is the Insurance Companies who can require the documentation before issuing a policy, or before the insurance coverage period begins.

Why do I feel that this is important? Heading up the Neuse River on a sunny day, a trawler perhaps 50' LOA and I were positioned for a port to port pass, with my having shoal water 1/4 mile to starboard. The oncoming trawler started drifting his heading toward my line. I got on 16 to hail, no response. as we closed, I got on my horn to signal port to port. No response. Radio and horn again. Every time he shifted his heading toward me, I fell off my heading to reestablish parallel headings, and he would again pinch toward my heading. Doing the "avoid a collision" thing in ample time, by ample margin to accommodate the non-compliant large trawler, and we passed port to port at a safe margin, but I had come 30 degrees off of heading to make this a safe passing. Of interest, I did not see anyone at the helm, wondering if he had set waypoints to bring him around the shoal heading toward the Bay River entrance. Or maybe he was having fun with the big boat/smaller boat principle, hoping that the other captain was on the ball. Anyway, that's perhaps where turning to see the name of the other boat, snapping a picture, as some of you have advised, may have been appropriate.

Requiring the ABC course for all new sail and power boat owners, certification by 2 boat owners that a new owner has had 25 hours of helmsmanship experience, all before an insurer provides coverage, is my recommendation for improving safety on the water for all of us - including the new owners!

As always, TF friends, feedback is welcome!

 

[psneeld]

Certification by 2 boat owners? and their qualification for knowing even the basics?

 

[backinblue]

Thanks for so many great comments on this important subject!

I concur with most training and enforcement suggestions. Certainly 100% of boaters, sail and motorized, including PWs, should be required to take the ABC offered by numerous associations. On line should qualify on a temporary basis until the COVID matter is solved. Classroom training is the minimum requirement after that. New boat owners in command with HP in excess of 100 hp should have boat handling certification
from USPS, USCGA or state wildlife commission, unless the new owners can document at least 25 hours of helmsmanship experience, with 2 witness attestations licensed boat owners. Boat dealers would find it advantageous to assist in providing helmsmanship experience opportunities. Obviously, this is a weak control, but hopefully most boat operators who provide that experience to the prospective new owner would feel some obligation to be honest about that. Providing false statements would make them liable for injuries and damage.

The key to this is the Insurance Companies! Their influence can help accomplish this goal. It is the Insurance Companies who can require the documentation before issuing a policy, or before the insurance coverage period begins.

Why do I feel that this is important? Heading up the Neuse River on a sunny day, a trawler perhaps 50' LOA and I were positioned for a port to port pass, with my having shoal water 1/4 mile to starboard. The oncoming trawler started drifting his heading toward my line. I got on 16 to hail, no response. as we closed, I got on my horn to signal port to port. No response. Radio and horn again. Every time he shifted his heading toward me, I fell off my heading to reestablish parallel headings, and he would again pinch toward my heading. Doing the "avoid a collision" thing in ample time, by ample margin to accommodate the non-compliant large trawler, and we passed port to port at a safe margin, but I had come 30 degrees off of heading to make this a safe passing. Of interest, I did not see anyone at the helm, wondering if he had set waypoints to bring him around the shoal heading toward the Bay River entrance. Or maybe he was having fun with the big boat/smaller boat principle, hoping that the other captain was on the ball. Anyway, that's perhaps where turning to see the name of the other boat, snapping a picture, as some of you have advised, may have been appropriate.

Requiring the ABC course for all new sail and power boat owners, certification by 2 boat owners that a new owner has had 25 hours of helmsmanship experience, all before an insurer provides coverage, is my recommendation for improving safety on the water for all of us - including the new owners!

As always, TF friends, feedback is welcome!

How would you suggest certifying hours of helmsmanship? That sounds excessive and difficult to manage.

 

[OldDan1943]

The helmsman can have all the training in the world but the difficult part is getting him to follow the rules.

 

[esheufelt]

So if you were king, god, emperor what would you do?

Seem like pretty much everything in this thread is true to some extent and i really have to say that i'm with the folks that don't think you can license sense or courtesy.


So seriously what would work, in planes you will lose you license and not be allowed to fly if you cross too many lines so my guess is that truly clueless pilots don't last long one way or the other.


It seems like education is a start, I excuse beginners that don't know they are doing something wrong or risky and no matter how much class time you have the real world is more complicated. "Experience is the teacher that gives the test before the lesson." I still make mistakes after 60,000 miles offshore.


My general bitch is that everyone is focused on their rights but there's hardly any talk of responsibility. And that applies to almost every dimension of life anymore. We're all like oppositional defiant children. Most of the issue in the original post were examples of people operating within their rights but with complete disregard for others rights. Speeders in posted zones being an exception. We're conditioned from day one to defend our personal rights and rarely even exposed to the idea that sometimes our exercise of our rights infringes on someones else's other rights.



End of rant.



So anyway, what might actually make a difference? Probably several answers needed because there a different kind of issues?



Maybe a big brother/apprentice type system where an inexperienced boater can team up with an experienced one who can share rules, seamanship and courtesy.

 

[NCheaven]

"certification"

Yup, it's a slippery effort at trying to make sure that the first time power boater has someone with boating experience give him some guided time behind the helm. I would like to see better suggestions about how to not only accomplish the ABC course completion, which I believe is required in NC now, but to have hands on helmsmanship instruction, too. I owned 3 sailboats, a coastal fishing boat, a ski boat, was a former sailboat racer and cruiser, Fleet Captain of a yacht club, canoe guy, went to Trawlerfest, took the ABC course in the 1970s, etc., but still had the seller's broker give me two hours behind the helm of my new to me trawler, docking practice, etc., before I headed out on the delivery cruise with the seller.

As they say, "you don't know what you don't know", and I wanted some help finding out what I didn't know. Granted, I tend to manage risk (former Chief Credit Officer in a large bank, risk management consultant in retirement....), but I learned a lot in the short practice session with the yacht broker, having never piloted an inboard diesel before. Seemed like a good idea to me. Also met with the seller's mechanic for an hour on board a few days before taking command, had him do a few things.....

What I want to avoid is the first time boat owner having no experience at the helm, being excited and confused on his first few days on the water, putting him, his guests and other boaters at risk. So, let's have some suggestions on how to do that. TF is all about constructive feedback, so bring it! Maybe an extended USPS video on small boat handling should be accompany every state or USCG registration, or as an add on to the ABC course. But, you TF people can come up with better ideas than that......

 

[psneeld]

People have careers ....full time jobs trying to make boating safer. In decades, so far the best programs have been nothing more than annual slogans, the boating safety certificate program and helping legislators pass laws after some bad accident or crusade by a distraught parent. I think it's because all the other great suggestions have such major drawbacks, they just never come to pass.


On problem...is what is a major annoyance to boaters is often not really all that dangerous (otherwise there would be more accidents/injuries/deaths)....to the point that stricter laws/enforcement/licensing might bubble to the top.


Also....it's not just new boaters....old timers are often bad or ignorant of rules and courtesies.



After15 years of teaching boating safety and some less time captain's licensing....a lot of old salts I came across really were deficient....not always dangerous....but many struggled with classroom stuff. A bit suprising...is often the guy had years of boating experience and yet the spouse did better on the exam despite harly any experience.

 

[backinblue]

Yup, it's a slippery effort at trying to make sure that the first time power boater has someone with boating experience give him some guided time behind the helm. I would like to see better suggestions about how to not only accomplish the ABC course completion, which I believe is required in NC now, but to have hands on helmsmanship instruction, too. I owned 3 sailboats, a coastal fishing boat, a ski boat, was a former sailboat racer and cruiser, Fleet Captain of a yacht club, canoe guy, went to Trawlerfest, took the ABC course in the 1970s, etc., but still had the seller's broker give me two hours behind the helm of my new to me trawler, docking practice, etc., before I headed out on the delivery cruise with the seller.

As they say, "you don't know what you don't know", and I wanted some help finding out what I didn't know. Granted, I tend to manage risk (former Chief Credit Officer in a large bank, risk management consultant in retirement....), but I learned a lot in the short practice session with the yacht broker, having never piloted an inboard diesel before. Seemed like a good idea to me. Also met with the seller's mechanic for an hour on board a few days before taking command, had him do a few things.....

What I want to avoid is the first time boat owner having no experience at the helm, being excited and confused on his first few days on the water, putting him, his guests and other boaters at risk. So, let's have some suggestions on how to do that. TF is all about constructive feedback, so bring it! Maybe an extended USPS video on small boat handling should be accompany every state or USCG registration, or as an add on to the ABC course. But, you TF people can come up with better ideas than that......

What you did with your latest purchase makes perfect sense and I would hope most buyers would do something similar if they can. The problem is when you try to make this the law and try to find practical ways to do this with anything from a jetski to 50' trawler.

 

[mvweebles]

Graphic from 2019 USCG Recreational Boating Statistics (released June 2020). Note the bottom section on causes of accidents. Not sure how increased training would improve the outcomes. Keep drunks off the water and keep speed within limits and you've solved about half the problem. Of course, there is already ample enforcement - training would have minimal effect.

Link to entire report is HERE

 

[psneeld]

Operator inexperience is almost 2X alcohol (which I know statistically has been reported in various degrees of relevance at the federal level)...so training only has minimal effect?


True it depends on what type of training....but to dismiss it when the example of statistics clearly indicates otherwise? (don't worry, I don't believe most statistical analysis anyway )

 

[backinblue]

Operator inexperience is almost 2X alcohol (which I know statistically has been reported in various degrees of relevance at the federal level)...so training only has minimal effect?


True it depends on what type of training....but to dismiss it when the example of statistics clearly indicates otherwise? (don't worry, I don't believe most statistical analysis anyway )

You could have lots of training and still little experience.

 

[PPandE]

The redneck lake that I grew up boating on in Tennessee had an accepted practice of anchored boats would target rude passersby with beer bottles. If a boat causing a wake passed within range, he was fair game. I think they then shot the bottles to make them sink. I wonder if they still do that?

 

[backinblue]

Horns are used regularly where I am along with associated yelling and screaming and hand gestures. I actually think that the majority of boaters are not intentionally being inconsiderate, most just seem to be unaware.

 

[Xsbank]

There are plenty of courses available out there and it's a very good chalk line: those who avail themselves of the courses and training are generally responsible; those who don't, aren't.

I believe in training, I used to have to do recurrent, simulator and a flight test, (and a medical) every 6 months. I had to do a minimum of 6 take-offs and landings in the same time and I could have a random FAA inspector or TC inspector in the cockpit or a company check pilot at anytime. Plus random drug testing and alcohol testing.

Make it simple, no license no passengers, or much higher insurance. Insurance should go down over the years, not up. With experience, fewer claims.

Why aren't we retesting drivers? Drivers kill more than guns in Chicago do.

Morons abound and many feel they have the right to "freedom," which they sort of do until they call for help. Then let them be "free."

I use video and a very loud horn and if really necessary, 911 to control moron boaters. Video and document all that you can for proof.

We stopped to render assistance to a broken-down boat, it was about 25', had 4 small kids on board, all the adults were drooling drunk and nobody had life jackets. We towed them to a safe dock and blew the whistle on them. Like I said, morons.

 

[DaveGibson]

Really?

Training and licensing will not change anything.

pete

Fines do. Along with associated loss of license and insurance (both should be mandatory). For those of you who claim they don't work, consider how wild our highways would be without them.

Training and licensing would change everything.

 

[OldDan1943]

Fines do. Along with associated loss of license and insurance (both should be mandatory). For those of you who claim they don't work, consider how wild our highways would be without them.

Training and licensing would change everything.

Sorry but, a certain segment of society do not have a driver's license nor any insurance for their cars and trucks. Eventually you may discover that, I hope not.

 

[mvweebles]

Operator inexperience is almost 2X alcohol (which I know statistically has been reported in various degrees of relevance at the federal level)...so training only has minimal effect?

True it depends on what type of training....but to dismiss it when the example of statistics clearly indicates otherwise? (don't worry, I don't believe most statistical analysis anyway )

You are correct - it was an over-reach. Roughly speaking, 20% of the reported accidents are due to operator inexperience and arguably some form of education would assist. But, circling back to the OP's list of nuisance grievances, I'd wager that 50% of those are influenced by alcohol usage......the rest fit into the category of "Can't fix stupid."

Given your background as a towboat operator, I'd be interested in your perspective as you've had a front-row seat not just in the bleachers, but as a stretcher-bearer to haul injured players off the field.

Peter

 

[gc9773]

You have a very simplistic concept of insurance, liability and the real legal system in the US as opposed to the legal system taught in American schools. The written contract or agreement means noting in today's lawless society. PM me and I'd be happy to fill you in. I have spent hundreds of thousand of dollars preparing the "catch all" documents and then having to defending myself from baseless law suits which were ultimately settled for pennies over what it cost me in lawyers' fees.

I agree with 100%, and you are correct, I have very little legal experience, and am trying to keep it that way ..

 

[CaptTom]

After15 years of teaching boating safety and some less time captain's licensing....a lot of old salts I came across really were deficient....not always dangerous....but many struggled with classroom stuff. A bit suprising...is often the guy had years of boating experience and yet the spouse did better on the exam despite harly any experience.

This has been my experience, too. I once had an old salt from Gloucester, MA in my class. Figured he'd be able to teach me WAY more than I could ever teach him. He got so much out of the class that he sent his entire crew up to the next class. Experience is great, but a bit of formal training can be helpful, too.

Fines do. Along with associated loss of license and insurance (both should be mandatory). For those of you who claim they don't work, consider how wild our highways would be without them.

Training and licensing would change everything.

I agree that enforcement and fines would change everything. When the state Marine Patrol ramped up enforcement of the no wake under bridges rules, everyone started slowing down under bridges.

It turns out water cops are just like highway cops. They don't really enforce ALL the rules, just that one speeding rule. And like on the highway, they don't enforce it to the letter. If someone briefly slows from full plane to plowing mode as they're passing under the bridge, they're not ticketed. Never mind that the law is 150' on either side of the bridge, or that headway speed is specifically defined NOT to include plowing and throwing a larger wake than when on plane.

You get exactly what you enforce.

Licensing? That's just a revenue stream for the state. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[psneeld]

You are correct - it was an over-reach. Roughly speaking, 20% of the reported accidents are due to operator inexperience and arguably some form of education would assist. But, circling back to the OP's list of nuisance grievances, I'd wager that 50% of those are influenced by alcohol usage......the rest fit into the category of "Can't fix stupid."

Given your background as a towboat operator, I'd be interested in your perspective as you've had a front-row seat not just in the bleachers, but as a stretcher-bearer to haul injured players off the field.

Peter

My perspective is a little of everything that has been said...


My conclusion is that while the water is full of ignorant (educational) and arrogant (personality) boaters, it's not all that dangerous between boats compared to what boaters do to themselves.


Sure there are accidents and deaths...but there is in every endeavor in life. People have heart attacks during sex...I hope we don't have to have too many studies and regulations of that! All the suggestions above have some merit, but hard to implement or enforce.


So until the accident/death rate becomes intolerable....I don't see much of a reduction because as been posted....unlicensed boaters will still operate, arrogant aholes will continue to act that way, drinkers ignore DUI/BUI laws, etc......


As far as alcohol goes....both my professional government training as a senior safety officer and a "on the water" guy....it's a lot less of an issue that people make. Look at how many drink in this country versus the actual incidents compared to incidents that don't involve alcohol. Too many incidents linked might have occurred whether alcohol was present or not. Sure there are the core ones...but I have had plenty of training/experience that proves otherwise.

 

[gc9773]

To add a little perspective concerning pilots, even private pilots typically spend six months to a year and roughly ten to fifteen thousand dollars getting that entry level certificate. Even if they are flying a $25,000 piper cherokee or cessna 150 they seem to be much more courteous as well as protective of their certificates. Just sayin'.

Yes, you are correct in that, flying, even on private basis is an expensive and intensive endeavor. Medical certificates, insurance, hangar fees, etc. And I know very little about it save for my interactions with folks who are private pilots.

I wonder if part of this has a historical/sociological/psychological component. Consider this, people have been traversing water for THOUSANDS of years, from the earliest dugout canoe to a modern cargo ship replete with an integrated bridge and automatic navigation systems.

In other words, collectively, any group of people has SOME experience with boating or the maritime industry provided they resided near some body of water.

Aviation is a VERY young technology or form of transport, having been around for what, 100 years?

And it typically is an EXPENSIVE endeavor, requiring difficult or expensive to manufacture components, specialized facilities to operate from, not to mention the infrastructure necessary to allow safe operation. And people generally don't like the idea of things falling out of the sky on them...

Not to mention the differences in operation. The average trawler here runs at what, 7 - 20 knots, whereas an aircraft runs at 100- 500 knots??? If an engine goes down on your trawler, you call for a tow or effect repairs if possible. If an engine goes out on your Cessna, start looking for a location to effect an emergency landing...

Heavy tailed systems, the process reaches a point of maximum expansion and either diversifies or is forced through a filter...

We have licensing regulations for vehicles and drivers, and look at how many issues are associated with that.

There is no "Perfect World" or "Utopia". It seems to me that dealing with the occasional issue is a small price to pay to enjoy the freedom of being on the water.

One typically sees increased regulation as a response to a perceived threat to public safety, which is usually a function of the media and feedback associated with effecting control.

Ideally, you are small enough that you don't get looked at very hard by the powers that be. I would be concerned with increased regulation being imposed upon the boating community.

In my experience, when you get what you want, sometimes you wish you had asked otherwise. Not to mention the unintended consequences associated with tinkering with an existing system...

 

[OldDan1943]

On my boat, per alcohol; No drinking underway. Wait till we get tied up at a dock or anchored for the night.
I do not want to rely on a drunk, for help in an emergency situation.

 

[psneeld]

On my boat, per alcohol; No drinking underway. Wait till we get tied up at a dock or anchored for the night.
I do not want to rely on a drunk, for help in an emergency situation.

Having a drink and being intoxicated/drunk are 2 different things...the absolute worst thinking is comparing people who do have a drink or two (who are are still more responsible than many) with abusers.....the discussion at this point loses all credibility.


To me zero tolerance smacks of zero responsibility.....but I hope we can just let the conversation get back to the topic as I know there are strong supporters on both sides.

 

[mvweebles]

My conclusion is that while the water is full of ignorant (educational) and arrogant (personality) boaters, it's not all that dangerous between boats compared to what boaters do to themselves.

When I was googling finding the USCG boating stats I cited, I came across a BoatUS set of statistics that bears-out psneeld's statement that the occurrence of accident with boaters is relatively low compared to the number of boats out there - and it's improving each year. Unlike driving a car, there are a lot of ways to injure yourself on a boat through simple inattention. Classic example is every sailor knows someone who lost a bit of finger to a sail-winch or an anchor-winch gypsy (power and sail).

Although expired, I proudly held a 100T USCG Masters ticket when I was delivering. I learned so much studying for the exam - I had no idea all the stuff I didn't know. I'm tempted to do it again for no other reason than a refresher - a 10+ year hiatus in boating has me rusty on many things. But it would be for personal reasons.

I just don't know how forced education would solve the OP's grievances. Heck, I'm not even sure the OP's grievances are legit - I'm sure I've done a couple things that I thought nothing of doing that some other boater felt was an outrageous and ignorant violation of protocol or rules (if so, 99% likely it was a sailor casting aspersions......sorry, it's in their nature). Given the amount of time I've spent on the water, one or two of them were probably right - I screwed-up. But not sure it's an actionable offense.

Peter

 

[DaveGibson]

Sorry but, a certain segment of society do not have a driver's license nor any insurance for their cars and trucks. Eventually you may discover that, I hope not.

People that drive without a license and insurance go to jail here in NY. While you will always have scofflaws, it catches up with them. I wrote a parking ticket scofflaw computer program for a city in Massachusetts. One guy had 1,800 parking tickets. With a way to track them down, the scofflaws paid the tickets and fines or went to jail. That is a deterrent. The same would work with boats.

 

[backinblue]

When I was googling finding the USCG boating stats I cited, I came across a BoatUS set of statistics that bears-out psneeld's statement that the occurrence of accident with boaters is relatively low compared to the number of boats out there - and it's improving each year. Unlike driving a car, there are a lot of ways to injure yourself on a boat through simple inattention. Classic example is every sailor knows someone who lost a bit of finger to a sail-winch or an anchor-winch gypsy (power and sail).

Although expired, I proudly held a 100T USCG Masters ticket when I was delivering. I learned so much studying for the exam - I had no idea all the stuff I didn't know. I'm tempted to do it again for no other reason than a refresher - a 10+ year hiatus in boating has me rusty on many things. But it would be for personal reasons.

I just don't know how forced education would solve the OP's grievances. Heck, I'm not even sure the OP's grievances are legit - I'm sure I've done a couple things that I thought nothing of doing that some other boater felt was an outrageous and ignorant violation of protocol or rules (if so, 99% likely it was a sailor casting aspersions......sorry, it's in their nature). Given the amount of time I've spent on the water, one or two of them were probably right - I screwed-up. But not sure it's an actionable offense.

Peter

I agree with your thinking. As I said earlier, some boaters are not idiots, they are probably just unaware. I've been guilty myself of disturbing others with a wake even though I was not in a no-wake zone. I've learned to be more aware of others around me that might be affected by my wake, rather than just following the rules and signs.

 

[DaveGibson]

I agree with your thinking. As I said earlier, some boaters are not idiots, they are probably just unaware. I've been guilty myself of disturbing others with a wake even though I was not in a no-wake zone. I've learned to be more aware of others around me that might be affected by my wake, rather than just following the rules and signs.

There does not need to be any signs for no wake zones. No wake is a Coast Guard regulation, and you are responsible for your wake whether there is a sign or not.

But I'll tell you what is a pain. Traveling down the ICW with all of the docks lining many sections. It gets frustrating traveling at a no wake speed for mile after miles, especially when you have long distances to cover between marinas (I needed marinas so I could walk my dogs).

I would sometimes arrive at marinas after hours with no dock hands to help my wife and me dock our 46' 50,000 pound trawler. Thankfully, I am a docking wizard and even taught docking in a sailing school, so I was good. But a newbie would be in trouble.

 

[backinblue]

I am aware that I am responsible for my wake. My point is that you could unintentionally disturb others, not because you are an arrogant jerk. Sometimes there are docks or smaller boats quite a bit distant from where I am traveling in an area with no speed limit. I've learned to be more vigilant of those situations and slow down accordingly.

 

[psneeld]

There does not need to be any signs for no wake zones. No wake is a Coast Guard regulation, and you are responsible for your wake whether there is a sign or not.

But I'll tell you what is a pain. Traveling down the ICW with all of the docks lining many sections. It gets frustrating traveling at a no wake speed for mile after miles, especially when you have long distances to cover between marinas (I needed marinas so I could walk my dogs).

I would sometimes arrive at marinas after hours with no dock hands to help my wife and me dock our 46' 50,000 pound trawler. Thankfully, I am a docking wizard and even taught docking in a sailing school, so I was good. But a newbie would be in trouble.

Actually it's not a USCG regulation that I can find except for vessels over 1600 ton. It's usually state or local.


The federal law is negligent operation and wake damage can be an included issue...but getting the USCG to respond to wake issues is usually not successful in my experience.


Somewhat explained better around post #43.