Shipping On Freighter Contract Questions

[lwarden]

Question for those of you who have done shipments of yachts on transport ships such as Seven Star, United, DYT etc.

In reading through the contract it appears they assume absolutely no liability at all. The contract I received from one of the shippers is very much for CYA of the shipper and gives no protection to the yacht owner at all. If they drop the boat out of the slings the slings it's on the owner. If they don't lash it down or set the supports correctly and the boat gets damaged, it's on the owner. Etc, etc.

Are you expected to assume all the liability for this? In all my years in business I have never seen such a lopsided contract.

Am I missing something, or am I just that naive?

I appreciate any input from others who have done this form of transport as it's all new to me and pretty unsettling.

Thanks,

 

[Comodave]

I have not done it, but that is what I have read. You have to get special insurance so that you are covered, they take no liability at all, even if they are grossly negligent.

 

[BandB]

Nearest contract is those movers use where the assume no liability other than their $0.60 per pound or so. Basically they both tell you the same thing and that is to get insurance, lots of it, all you can. In terms of damage, you must look at the combination of the contract and your insurance and decide if you feel protected.

Then there is one other risk that you need some protection on, especially on shippers other than Seven Star and DYT, and that is the situation of them failing to pay the shipper. Seven Star and DYT usually use their own vessels. United and others don't own vessels. United's predecessor was Yacht Path and they failed to pay shippers so the boats were arrested and to get the boat released owners had to pay the second time.

 

[lwarden]

Thanks for the replies, next call appears to be with my insurance broker. Glad to hear that at least this is normal for the industry. It’s a complicated process, especially with Covid and having to bring the boat from Anacortes to Canada and getting down to Mexico to pick it up.

Wish me luck....

 

[Comodave]

There is another thread going now that the poster talks about different ways to move your boat across country. He talks about shipping on a freighter. Do a search and watch his video. Good info.

 

[guy with a boat]

I moved my boat this way and your interpretation of the contract is correct. When I was shopping for a carrier, I requested the proposed contract along with the quote. I reviewed contracts from 3 sources and they were all terrible and completely one-sided. I work with contracts of every type in my business and these shipper contracts were among the worst I have ever seen.

They are entirely in favor of the shipper. If one of the deck crew cuts your boat loose and pushes it over the side in the middle of the ocean, they are literally not liable per their contract. The system relies on the insurance carrier taking on most of the responsibility (less the deductible). They shipper typically provides the coverage through a third-party insurance company. While it is possible to replace or supplement the coverage with outside insurance, I think most go with the provided coverage.Typical deductible is 1% of the value of the boat, so you still have some risk if things go south.
When you get quotes, pay attention to the insurance terms that they include in pricing. I got one quote that included insurance with a 1/2% deductible and the others were 1%.

BandB’s point about the risk of the shipper defaulting is a good one. The risk is probably low with the major players, but it is not zero and the downside is big.

One last thought regarding the liability issue. If you have minor (but significant) damage, which is a common occurrence, your only leverage is the shipper’s desire to maintain a respectable reputation. Even though the contract doesn’t require the shipper to help or pay for damage, they sometimes will as a PR effort so they don’t scare away future customers.

I really didn’t like the process at all just because it is so one-sided in the shipper’s favor. Substantial schedule delays are to be expected and minor damage to your boat is common. In our case, it was the least bad of our options so we went ahead with it. The boat ended up where it needed to be and our minor damage was corrected after many weeks. I would only ship a boat again if there were no other viable options.

 

[BandB]

I moved my boat this way and your interpretation of the contract is correct. When I was shopping for a carrier, I requested the proposed contract along with the quote. I reviewed contracts from 3 sources and they were all terrible and completely one-sided. I work with contracts of every type in my business and these shipper contracts were among the worst I have ever seen.

They are entirely in favor of the shipper. If one of the deck crew cuts your boat loose and pushes it over the side in the middle of the ocean, they are literally not liable per their contract. The system relies on the insurance carrier taking on most of the responsibility (less the deductible). They shipper typically provides the coverage through a third-party insurance company. While it is possible to replace or supplement the coverage with outside insurance, I think most go with the provided coverage.Typical deductible is 1% of the value of the boat, so you still have some risk if things go south.
When you get quotes, pay attention to the insurance terms that they include in pricing. I got one quote that included insurance with a 1/2% deductible and the others were 1%.

BandB’s point about the risk of the shipper defaulting is a good one. The risk is probably low with the major players, but it is not zero and the downside is big.

One last thought regarding the liability issue. If you have minor (but significant) damage, which is a common occurrence, your only leverage is the shipper’s desire to maintain a respectable reputation. Even though the contract doesn’t require the shipper to help or pay for damage, they sometimes will as a PR effort so they don’t scare away future customers.

I really didn’t like the process at all just because it is so one-sided in the shipper’s favor. Substantial schedule delays are to be expected and minor damage to your boat is common. In our case, it was the least bad of our options so we went ahead with it. The boat ended up where it needed to be and our minor damage was corrected after many weeks. I would only ship a boat again if there were no other viable options.

There are two very different levels of performance. Seven Star and DYT, owned by Seven Star perform relatively close to schedule and they are decent to deal with. They also make it clear that the insurance is necessary and put it on 90% of their contracts.

Many of the others are months late and occasionally don't make the trip at all. Worse situation is your boat only makes it part way. Again, from my knowledge and experience, Seven Star and DYT perform best.

That is with one exception. Many builders have long standing relationships with their own carriers who do an excellent job and have long term business riding on it. However, these are specific carriers for those builders from those locations, so likely not available to most people. They are also not really boat carriers as such but the builders do an excellent job of building a cradle and the boat ships on that. If your boat is going on deck of a freighter, cradles built just for your boat are, in my opinion, much better than stands being improvised on deck.

 

[Bradenvlp]

OP - I’m not sure what you are buying but are you moving a boat from Anacortes to the West coat of Mexico or San Diego? Lots of very good delivery captains happy to make that delivery on her own bottom. I’d much prefer that route over a freighter for west coast transport.

 

[BandB]

OP - I’m not sure what you are buying but are you moving a boat from Anacortes to the West coat of Mexico or San Diego? Lots of very good delivery captains happy to make that delivery on her own bottom. I’d much prefer that route over a freighter for west coast transport.

Would help to know what kind of boat and from and to where.

 

[Mr. Blu]

I used three times Starclass Yacht Transport to ship my boats to and from the Netherlands to Croatia. Twice a President 385 Sundeck and the last time a Beneteau ST 52. Starr Class provided an insurance which covered all the possibles issues. The journey went very smoothly with no problems. The schedule is nearly as tight as the Dutch railways. Even in the Covid-19 period in Croatia the local agent provided a licensed skipper who transported the motoryacht from the marina to the carrier. First time was a bit exciting because it was all new to me.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Sevenstar is in the Splieltof Group. Due to the size of that group and their experience I would put their default risk very low. In addition to the insurance / damage concerns raised by other posters is the schedule working under Covid restrictions. You will make full payment in advance of the shipment, if you miss the load out date you will still be out the full amount. Under the best of circumstances the schedule is fluid. My experience was 4 days laying Rotterdam, this was after many weeks of the departure port and date shifting. Then 2 weeks in West Palm Beach Fl, the boat had to be offloaded from the 1st ship and loaded onto the next. And finally 4 days in Victoria BC as the transport ship lay at anchor before moving to Ogden Pt to unload. Once load / unload date and time are committed you will be on short notice standby to move or receive the boat. In my experience the shortest time was 6 hrs, the longest 36 hrs. Covid with border restrictions and quarantine adds to that challenge. I would consider hiring a professional delivery captain who has worked out the border crossing wrinkles on the Anacortes to Vancover end. If you can get into Mx well in advance of the ship's arrival you can easily do that end yourself.

 

[woolf]

That is exactly what we are seeing, as we discuss shipping options from Europe to the PNW:

First you have to navigate the various local EU travel restrictions to make it in time to your loading port
Then you have to trans-ship in FL, which can mean a 24h to 3 weeks stopover – the boat handled by a local agency, as the EU owner plus crew is not allowed into the US at this time
In Victoria BC you have to again work with an agency, because even if you are allowed into CAN, there is a mandatory 14 day quarantine

Peters & May appears to be a very reputable shipping company as well, used by high profile yachts and regatta events for decades.

We have put our PNW cruising plans on hold for the time being, as even the delivery via North Atlantic route, as originally planned, is closed for pleasure cruisers at this time.

 

[Hippocampus]

Shipped my boat from St. Lucia to Newport RI with seven seas due to covid. As part of initial arrangements took the the liability contract they suggested. Also contacted my usual insurance (Concepts Special Risk). Had a owners operated contract with them. Then due to being 2000nm away from my boat incurred two additional expenses. One for a captain and one crew to be available and sail the boat to the ship. Second to insure them separately for that and any time they spent on the ship or being transported off the ship back to land. Your third additional expense is arranging clearance at both ends. You hire shipping brokers for that and some are rip off artists so shop around.
On the other end I took acceptance of my boat. That meant the ships shore boat picked me at the Hinckley yard (needed permission for that beforehand) and took me to the ship. Getting on the ship was scary. You climb up rickety boarding stairs and better not be scared of heights or movement. Then you crawl through a maze of obstacles (don’t wear good clothes) to finally climb up another really rickety ladder to get on your boat. Eventually they put slings around your boat and crane you off. You’re inches from a huge heavy steel structure so better hope your engine(s) start up. We had the tanks filled before loading and changed out filters. Then you’d better have good small boat handling skills to get away if there’s any sea running.
Was also told by friends to wax the boat before leaving. Apparently you can get a lot of soot and salt. We had no soot but an amazing amount of salt. Finally told to act like you were going on passage and really secure things.
All in all it was a weird experience. $25k for seven seas and shipping insurance.Another $2k for the other stuff. But now told got off cheap with St.Lucia labor costs v elsewhere and a bit of negotiating. Boat had no injuries. But a bit stressful as the ship left 2 days earlier than scheduled as they wanted to get ahead of a hurricane. Then sat in Ft.Lauderdale. But delivery date was spot on.
I would have no reluctance to do it again if stuck like we were due to covid. Give seven seas +1.

 

[lwarden]

I moved my boat this way and your interpretation of the contract is correct. When I was shopping for a carrier, I requested the proposed contract along with the quote. I reviewed contracts from 3 sources and they were all terrible and completely one-sided. I work with contracts of every type in my business and these shipper contracts were among the worst I have ever seen.

They are entirely in favor of the shipper. If one of the deck crew cuts your boat loose and pushes it over the side in the middle of the ocean, they are literally not liable per their contract. The system relies on the insurance carrier taking on most of the responsibility (less the deductible). They shipper typically provides the coverage through a third-party insurance company. While it is possible to replace or supplement the coverage with outside insurance, I think most go with the provided coverage.Typical deductible is 1% of the value of the boat, so you still have some risk if things go south.
When you get quotes, pay attention to the insurance terms that they include in pricing. I got one quote that included insurance with a 1/2% deductible and the others were 1%.

BandB’s point about the risk of the shipper defaulting is a good one. The risk is probably low with the major players, but it is not zero and the downside is big.

One last thought regarding the liability issue. If you have minor (but significant) damage, which is a common occurrence, your only leverage is the shipper’s desire to maintain a respectable reputation. Even though the contract doesn’t require the shipper to help or pay for damage, they sometimes will as a PR effort so they don’t scare away future customers.

I really didn’t like the process at all just because it is so one-sided in the shipper’s favor. Substantial schedule delays are to be expected and minor damage to your boat is common. In our case, it was the least bad of our options so we went ahead with it. The boat ended up where it needed to be and our minor damage was corrected after many weeks. I would only ship a boat again if there were no other viable options.

Thanks for the reply, very helpful.

OP - I’m not sure what you are buying but are you moving a boat from Anacortes to the West coat of Mexico or San Diego? Lots of very good delivery captains happy to make that delivery on her own bottom. I’d much prefer that route over a freighter for west coast transport.

Would help to know what kind of boat and from and to where.

This is my Lindell 36 shown in my avitar. I have a quote from Sevenstar which is very reasonable, maybe only a few thousand more than the cost of hiring a delivery captain, crew and factoring in all costs. I also would prefer not to run the boat that long and along such a forbidding coast when it's still not fully tested. It's a solid boat and I'm sure cane make it OK, but it is a little on the small side for such a journey. I've put on 100 hours so far and things seem good, but I still planned to factor in $2,000 along the trip for unknown repairs. Then plan for a few days layover for bad weather and things add up. For a few thousand more it seems better to ship it, especially this time of year with unpredictable weather. Trucking quote was $19K since they need to go through Nevada due to height. Sevenstar quote was $12K plus $1,200 for the cross-border captain shuttle. I figured bringing it on it's own bottom to Santa Barbara to be around $10K, maybe a little less if things go well. I would plan to wait till spring if bringing it down on it's own bottom and with Covid restrictions and the cold weather this means I won't be able to use the boat for months (it's winterized at the moment). Weather in San Diego is beautiful and we could be boating most weekends. Life is short and I'm not a patient man.....

Sevenstar is in the Splieltof Group. Due to the size of that group and their experience I would put their default risk very low. In addition to the insurance / damage concerns raised by other posters is the schedule working under Covid restrictions. You will make full payment in advance of the shipment, if you miss the load out date you will still be out the full amount. Under the best of circumstances the schedule is fluid. My experience was 4 days laying Rotterdam, this was after many weeks of the departure port and date shifting. Then 2 weeks in West Palm Beach Fl, the boat had to be offloaded from the 1st ship and loaded onto the next. And finally 4 days in Victoria BC as the transport ship lay at anchor before moving to Ogden Pt to unload. Once load / unload date and time are committed you will be on short notice standby to move or receive the boat. In my experience the shortest time was 6 hrs, the longest 36 hrs. Covid with border restrictions and quarantine adds to that challenge. I would consider hiring a professional delivery captain who has worked out the border crossing wrinkles on the Anacortes to Vancover end. If you can get into Mx well in advance of the ship's arrival you can easily do that end yourself.

I have a US delivery captain lined up and he has a Canadian captain he coordinates with. The US captain takes the boat to Victoria and docks it at a marina, he then goes straight to the airport and flies home. The Canadian captain takes the boat to the ship when called for. They have done this routine many times over the past months so it seems to be well sorted.

 

[Hippocampus]

Finally would mention. I fart dust but am reasonably fit. If you’re not hire some hands to take delivery. I had two salty friends with me so didn’t need to hire anyone. But having 3 was worthwhile.

 

[lwarden]

Finally would mention. I fart dust but am reasonably fit. If you’re not hire some hands to take delivery. I had two salty friends with me so didn’t need to hire anyone. But having 3 was worthwhile.

I would love to do it and have friends who have offered to join but unfortunately I don't have the time.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Hippocampus in post #13 gives a great overview. I will note that my experience with Sevenstar is they didn't want me on the ships. I was taken off the boat by shore boat after the slings were in place and I had the boat secured. Similar on the other end. I was delivered to the boat by shore boat. I did need to get aboard in Fl but getting permission was a challenge. It was as dirty and challenging as Hippocampus says.

Have extra keys made and on hand. The FL to Victoria BC load master wanted keys on his ship. Your delivery caps will need keys too. Make sure your boat is ready to be quickly secured at load out and quickly started up at launch. Any time of day, any weather. Remember Sevenstar tolerates no delays caused by you or your hired caps and crew.

While I state concerns and list delays I have only good things to say about Sevenstar's load masters, rigging crews and ship's crew. What they do in short order is very impressive.

 

[boatpoker]

I'm involved in one right now thats heading towards a $400k claim.
it's shaping up to be an ugly fight.

 

[BandB]

And part of the United group which succeeded bankrupt Yacht Path is now operating as a new company, Cross Chartering Yacht Transport. The history goes on and on. Are the successor companies different?

 

[Ken E.]

I shipped on Yacht Path about 20 years ago, from Ensenada to Nanaimo BC fortunately before they collapsed and the boats on board held hostage. The insurance issues have been covered above, but a practical concern is that your boat will probably be covered by heavy salt scale and diesel soot at its destination like mine was. A cover or shrink wrap would be a good plan and is what I'd do next time around.

 

[lwarden]

The insurance is included in the price from Sevenstar, I've received the policy details from the broker. Need to set aside some time tonight to go over it, lots of fine print. It covers from "hook to hook" which means once it's in the sling till it comes out of it at the end it's covered by the policy.

 

[Hippocampus]

Most of the 7 sea have their stacks at the back so soot isn’t a problem. Ask to see a picture of the ship that’s carrying you boat.
PB is spot on about the keys. It was a PIA to make weird keys for the companionway so gave one set to ships captain and had my private captain hide the other set where we prearranged over the phone.
Don’t think they will let you use a cover. If it blows off they would not like it.

 

[mvweebles]

Re: yacht protection while being shipped. I posed the question to this forum a few months ago. I expected some form of shrink wrap as recommendation - it was not. Consensus was use a high quality wax prior to departure and high pressure spray at other end to remove.

Peter

 

[lwarden]

Ship is Sevenstar's own Mv Diamantgracht. Fairly new ship, stack at the back and I presume has pretty clean emissions.

Looks like this is going to happen, I'm looking forward to having the boat in San Diego although we loved the PNW.

 

[Insequent]

I shipped from Vancouver BC to Brisbane Australia 7 years ago. I used Aurora, a local agent, who handles a lot of pleasure boat shipping including Riviera from here to America. They were great.

At the Vancouver end they sub-contracted Peters & May. I took the boat to the ship, hiring a guy from the nearby marina to tag along in a small aluminium boat. He assisted me with sling positioning, and then took me back to the marina afterwards. No one was on board my boat as it was lifted onto the ship, a very sensible safety protocol IMO. Sling damage to the rubrail on starboard side during loading was a $10k insurance claim after arrival in Brisbane. The sling simply stretched a little and gripped the rail rather than sliding over it.

The ship was a Swire Group general freight vessel. At that time they had a scheduled monthly freight run from Canada/USA west coast (about 5 ports of call) to Brisbane & Tauranga (NZ). By the time it got to Australia it had quite an assortment of deck cargo. Another boat beside mine, a mining dump truck, a large RV and various other oddities. They required that I have not more than 200 litres of fuel in my tanks, manageable but it took some planning. They indicated that they would remove any larger quantity , at my expense. In the event no-one checked, but I did have to make a written declaration about the fuel on board. To ensure entry to Australia was straightforward I had the boat lifted and pressure washed in Vancouver a day before loading onto the ship. I also made sure there was no foodstuffs of any kind on board.

The boat was lifted onto a custom cradle on board the ship in Vancouver. I locked the boat before stepping off it, and unlocked it when boarding in Brisbane. No-one requested keys. A friend running a tug & barge in Los Angeles sent me a pic with my boat being unloaded into the water while they accessed a deck hatch on the ship. Not sure at how many ports that happened, but picking up the cradle, while the boat was secured in the cradle, was pretty easy for them. Their deck cranes threw off dollops of grease from their crane's cables, but that was not too difficult to clean.

In Brisbane it was an in-water delivery. A friend in a trailer boat brought me alongside my boat once it was in the water. Once again, no-one allowed on the boat while it was picked up and lowered to the water. The insurance claims assessor was denied port access (customs controlled area) before my boat was unloaded, and came along to the marina I was in a few days later to check out the damage, and got the ball rolling for claim settlement and repair. Both went quickly and without any issues.

Overall the process was not too stressful. But note shipping rates fluctuate wildly according to global freight demand. My rate when I did ship was 50% of the rate I was quoted a year before I did actually ship, so a refit in Port Townsend and cruising in BC worked well for me.

 

[Al Bartlett]

I shipped my OA 50 from Port Everglades to Vancouver BC in 2013. I had to buy special shipping insurance to cover my vessel while it was being transported. I had to pay the company (yachtpath) that arranged with Grieg Star Shipping for the transport, up front. Yacht path went bankrupt while my vessel was enroute, and Grieg Star shipping placed a lien on my boat so it was seized when it arrived in Vancouver. I had to pay just about the full amount again to get the boat released. Lots of vessel owners were caught by Yachtpath’s bankruptcy. Short of a full audit on a shipping brokers books I am not sure how to reduce this risk. The ship operators do not require payment in advance as they have possession of the goods. Probably the safest way to go is to use a dedicated yacht shipping company that has its own ships ie Dockwise. They were not serving the West Coast at the time otherwise I would have gone there.

 

[lwarden]

I shipped my OA 50 from Port Everglades to Vancouver BC in 2013. I had to buy special shipping insurance to cover my vessel while it was being transported. I had to pay the company (yachtpath) that arranged with Grieg Star Shipping for the transport, up front. Yacht path went bankrupt while my vessel was enroute, and Grieg Star shipping placed a lien on my boat so it was seized when it arrived in Vancouver. I had to pay just about the full amount again to get the boat released. Lots of vessel owners were caught by Yachtpath’s bankruptcy. Short of a full audit on a shipping brokers books I am not sure how to reduce this risk. The ship operators do not require payment in advance as they have possession of the goods. Probably the safest way to go is to use a dedicated yacht shipping company that has its own ships ie Dockwise. They were not serving the West Coast at the time otherwise I would have gone there.

I understand this has happened to quite a few boats and owners in the past. I think this just happened recently to a load of boats when another shipper went belly up.
Unfortunately it doesn't look like my boat is going to be shipped this month, they didn't have enough boats to make it work. Hopefully next month but I'm having my doubts. Starting to think my boat may be stuck there till the spring....

 

[ProMaritime]

Typical in the boat and the airplane business. There is a pirate a minute out there.

 

[Todd2]

I know this post does not directly apply to 99% of the board members here, but thought some may still find it interesting:


I checked into this a couple of years back. I wanted to ship my boat, on it's trailer, from the US to Europe and travel the canals, etc. This involves traveling inside the ship (not on deck) with other RVs, busses, trailers, cars, trucks, construction equipment, semis, small boats, etc., etc. I'd get pre-approval to tow my boat behind my truck on the docks to the ship. A forklift with a hitch ball would roll it on and park it, and the trailer would be strapped down to the floor. One advantage was that my boat is not exposed to the constant salt spray like the yachts on deck. The shipping price was not all that bad, but the insurance was as much as the shipping - effectively doubling the price. It's still doable, so it remains on my bucket list (but I'll need to retire early, first).


Todd

 

[boatpoker]

The shipping price was not all that bad, but the insurance was as much as the shipping - effectively doubling the price.

Clearly the underwriters know something the average shipping customer does not.