Ray McCormack Sunseeker 54 delivery to Hawaii currently underway

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In most cases and for most people, a trip like this becomes a great learning experience. Unfortunately, Captain Ray seems immune to such learning opportunities. I suspect he will continue on believing he did nothing wrong, boats will continue to be damaged, and eventually unfortunately, someone will get hurt or killed.
 
Fuel bladders and on deck tankage are not uncommon and provide distance insurance. The December 2015 issue of Ocean Navigator discussed in intersting detail how is has been done on several Nordhavn (46, 47 52 and 62) globe trotters. James Hamilton on his N52 carried about 1,000 gallons in two bladder locations, one on the Portuguese bridge and the other in the cockpit.

I've seen 10-12 drums in the cockpit of a larger Nordhavn. The reasons included the ability to cruise faster or to leave the rhumb line to avoid storms. Check out Star's blog for their use of several totes mounted in the cockpit of their Northern Marine.

Ray is fair game IMHO but not the sensible and well thought out use of additional on deck fuel storage whether in totes, drums or bladders. A dinghy garage can be a decent location too and being a bit lower than on deck has some +s and -s.
 
sunchaser said:
Ray is fair game IMHO but not the sensible and well thought out use of additional on deck fuel storage whether in totes, drums or bladders. A dinghy garage can be a decent location too and being a bit lower than on deck has some +s and -s.
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You have reason to feel confident that this skipper's employment of bladders was "sensible and well thought out." I have no idea whether that's true. Not having seen the boat, I'm refraining from piling-on too much about the captain. But my comment about the use of bladders in this case was because they did turn out to be problematic - just one of the things about the saga that fails to inspire confidence.
 
sunchaser said:
Fuel bladders and on deck tankage are not uncommon and provide distance insurance. The December 2015 issue of Ocean Navigator discussed in intersting detail how is has been done on several Nordhavn (46, 47 52 and 62) globe trotters. James Hamilton on his N52 carried about 1,000 gallons in two bladder locations, one on the Portuguese bridge and the other in the cockpit.

I've seen 10-12 drums in the cockpit of a larger Nordhavn. The reasons included the ability to cruise faster or to leave the rhumb line to avoid storms. Check out Star's blog for their use of several totes mounted in the cockpit of their Northern Marine.

Ray is fair game IMHO but not the sensible and well thought out use of additional on deck fuel storage whether in totes, drums or bladders. A dinghy garage can be a decent location too and being a bit lower than on deck has some +s and -s.
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Agreed, it is never without some risk and complication but nothing inherently unsafe if done well. I'm still unclear on just what access Ray had to the engine room with the dinghy garage full, as they were unable to remedy the leaking hose clamp that let a claimed 300(IIRC?) gallons of water into the engine room on their first attempt, without unloading the fuel into a tote at the boat ramp.

James has some good writeups on MV Dirona's planning and execution, I'll link a couple but there is a lot more on their site:

https://mvdirona.com/2017/04/fuel-option-value-speed-safety/
https://mvdirona.com/2019/03/deck-fuel-and-vessel-stability/
 
Blissboat said:
You have reason to feel confident that this skipper's employment of bladders was "sensible and well thought out." I have no idea whether that's true. Not having seen the boat, I'm refraining from piling-on too much about the captain. But my comment about the use of bladders in this case was because they did turn out to be problematic - just one of the things about the saga that fails to inspire confidence.
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Sorry for the confusion. I did not mean to say or imply Ray’s bladders or drums were well thought out. I’ve no idea what Ray did in this regard.
 
Sunchaser once again brings forward some excellent examples of responsible use of fuel bladders and why an otherwise well found yacht would use them. I also agree that the toy garage is likely an excellent location. The beef I have in this example is of the 2300 gals of diesel the boat carried, 1800 was in bladders and barrels --- over 75% of the fuel. Also keep in mind that this invariably hindered access to the engines (recall, on Attempt #1, a hose clamp disintegrated and they returned to the dock and had to offload the fuel to make the repair).

Ray said his learning experience was to stay away from cheap bladders, especially those with seams. In other words, he blames the bladders, not anything he did or didn't do. This is a common refrain from him - he went so far as to say that Boat Bum Gal would have sank whether he was aboard or not. Any responsibility on his part was due to a bug in Coastal Explorer because it wasn't showing his track line. He also blames the autopilot for an unexpected and undetected 30-degree course change which is ridiculous. By his telling, following the 30-foot depth line around a rocky, poorly charted headland named "Kelp Point" at 1am is responsible seamanship.

I have no inherent concern with carrying extra fuel. But there are obviously limits. Ray was way over the line.

Peter
 
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Bladders can certainly leak, even from reputable manufacturers. For my first offshore trip as skipper (NZ to Tonga, about a 1000nm) our 36'sailboat had a 60l diesel tank. That seemed a bit light so I ordered a 100l bladder, custom built in NZ to fit under a quarter berth. I was nervous about any diesel leaking in the accommodation area so as a test I filled it up and left it on the workshop floor. When I got back there was a puddle of diesel under it. We used 20l jerry jugs instead with no issues.
For extended range for the trip around NZ on Ahi we found a 500l from Turtle Pac (Australia) that was small enough to fit on the cockpit floor and still allow access to the engine room hatches. Any potential spillage straight out through the rear of the open cockpit (there wasn't any).
Turtle Pac drop them from planes, so build quality is pretty good.
https://www.turtlepac.com/slide-video-shows/drop-drum-2/
 
Blissboat said:
Not to veer off-topic too far here, but the discussion of fuel bladders for a long ocean passage in a small boat makes me think about the possible chain of failures...
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When Dirona(Hamiltons) crossed the Atlantic they used bladders. One or two bladders where in the cockpit...

They were traveling across the north Atlantic and got hit by a storm which put water in the cockpit. Normally, this was not an issue...

But with the bladder(s) in the cockpit, the water was at a higher level than usual because of the volume of space taken up by the bladder(s). They also had problem with opening the cockpit door. I can't remember if they could not get out or it was just difficult to open the door... Maybe it was with the high water in the cockpit, due to the bladders, opening the door would have let in water. :confused: Anywho the bladders caused an issue with the door...

The boarding seas were putting water at a higher level in the cockpit due to the bladders, water stared to fill the engine room and Dirona started setting off alarms. :eek: Course this all happened early in the morning. :facepalm:

The problem turned to be a pipe that was in a cockpit locker than was and inch or two above the cockpit deck. The pipe was used for cable access from engine room to the cockpit locker. The pipe was not water proof and the bladders displaced water at a higher level than usual in the cockpit locker which allowed water in to the engine room...

James was able to plug up the pipe and slow down water ingress and the bilge pumps removed the water but I seem to remember they had issues with a bilge pump that had to be resolved but maybe my memory is wrong on that point.

So, the use of the bladders caused engine room flooding in an unexpected way and very well could have caused the loss of the boat and crew if a few more links in the chain of events had occurred. The sea found a build failure in the boat, a weakness that had never been in a problem in the past, but a weakness exposed by the bladder(s).

One thinks the bladders will cause stability, and maybe spill issues, but bladders causing flooding would have not been on my risk list.:nonono:
 
Dan
According to James Hamilton Category A CE ratings were "met" even with 1,000 gallons of deck fuel in bladders on board. One of his 2019 blogs covered stability and fuel burn in typical JH well thought out detail.
 
I had to chuckle a bit ago this. Via Sailing Anarchy, here is a screenshot off Capt Rays Facebook where someone asked him if the Coast Guard charges when they tow.

In typical self incriminating fashion, Ray answers that they don't but there is an administrative process if they tow a boat too often.......but he has never been fined because he's always on a different boat.

Peter
 

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mvweebles said:
I had to chuckle a bit ago this. Via Sailing Anarchy, here is a screenshot off Capt Rays Facebook where someone asked him if the Coast Guard charges when they tow.

In typical self incriminating fashion, Ray answers that they don't but there is an administrative process if they tow a boat too often.......but he has never been fined because he's always on a different boat.

Peter
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He is correct on USCG procedures.

Not commenting on his competency as to why he needs so many tows.
 
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I'm really amazed McCormick actually piped up on the SA thread. I think he is going to regret that interaction and possible self-incriminating things he said. I'm on a few forums, and a couple that get spicy at times, but he has been pretty much eviscerated over there.

One other thing that nags me about the Sunseeker delivery to HI. I cannot imagine taking a boat offshore where engine access was not possible due to a fuel bladder in the way. That would be a hard pass for me.
 
Blissboat said:
Not to veer off-topic too far here, but the discussion of fuel bladders for a long ocean passage in a small boat makes me think about the possible chain of failures. The risks were not solely about the failure of the bladders themselves, but about the repeated g-force loading on the surrounding decks, stringers, bulkheads and hull sides. Cockpits and internal compartments are designed to stay rigid and remain attached with the normal weight of passengers, crew and associated gear. A 200 gallon (for example) bladder full of diesel weighs approx. 1420#. Statistically, that equals the weight of 7.8 American adults.

Consider that gravitational weight, in one location, accelerating and decelerating repeatedly every few moments for days on end as the vessel moves up, down and sideways through waves and swells. .
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Years ago i used haul over the road raw and processed dairy products always scaled out at 80,000 with 50 thousand of product in whats called a smooth bore tank which is a non baffeled tank and is standard food grade to prevent bacteria in corners .

50 thousand can be anywhere from 4000 to 6200 gallons of product depending on if it was raw milk, processed milk or heavy creme, regardless the tanks maxed right around 7500 gallons of capacity so there was excess room for expansion and unfortunately Surge.

So to get to my point, dealing with the surge of a non baffeled liquid In a contained area is a Monster that has its own mind like you can not believe.

I can't imagine having a partially full bladder slamming around in a contained area on a boat much less a stateroom.

As far as the barrels, they appeared rather haphazardly placed in the cockpit with minimal securement as what would there be to secure them to in the cockpit?

I'm curious if they went back to sea with access to the engine room blocked by fuel storage and if it was, for how many days .

I can't believe any insurance company would find an underwriter to take on this voyage, I'm sure they just shoved off insurance be damned .
 
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I recall a post signature which talked of problem solving the right way, the wrong way, and the way some guy got away with. Which sounds like Mr. McCormack.
Un (or under)restrained fuel bladders obstructing ER access is a huge no no, but I suspect Mr. McCormack has a wry sense of humor, he knows he got it there, and isn`t much bothered by the commentary.
Oscar Wilde said the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.McCormack seems on solid ground there.
 
We got a full rider for our Bermuda races. Not available for these trips?
 
Osprey69 said:
We got a full rider for our Bermuda races. Not available for these trips?
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It can be prohibitively expensive for a low budget cruiser on an older boat spending extended periods outside the US.
 
“Don’t gamble more than you can afford to loose”
Thanks, Dad!
 
marcs said:
Liability only is my understanding, which isn't uncommon on boats / trips like this one.
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Good way of putting it. She was uninsured for the loss. Likely had liability insurance but not hull insurance.

I still cannot get over Rays track along the rocks. And his statement that the boat would have been lost whether he was aboard or not. Over 100 boats entered Turtle Bay within 24 hours of BBG. Only one had an incident of any kind.

Peter
 
Yeah, and the auto pilot thing.

Autopilot is for long haul over open water, not coming in to port.
 
Delta Riverat said:
Yeah, and the auto pilot thing.

Autopilot is for long haul over open water, not coming in to port.
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I'm amazed by his rationalizations. "'tis better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."
 
To me, managing an autopilot properly can be a bigger plus than a minus.

It really does depend, but staying on the track you want while searching desperately for the correct marks to me is a really good thing rather than having to hand steer while looking for marks and drifting out of the channel/safe water.

But like any new helmsman, it's gotta be supervised at least somewhat.

I believe a lot of experienced, shorthanded skippers use autopilot in a lot of situations.
 
psneeld said:
To me, managing an autopilot properly can be a bigger plus than a minus.

It really does depend, but staying on the track you want while searching desperately for the correct marks to me is a really good thing rather than having to hand steer while looking for marks and drifting out of the channel/safe water.

But like any new helmsman, it's gotta be supervised at least somewhat.

I believe a lot of experienced, shorthanded skippers use autopilot in a lot of situations.
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I agree - I use an autopilot a lot where precision steering is important. Especially when navigating to a waypoint vs a bearing, the course will compensate for wind of current. Although there was almost a full moon that clear night (I was anchored in Turtle Bay), having the AP steering in the dark would be helpful. Issue was decision to dance with rocks.

30-degree course change is a lot and it's impossible for that to go undetected as Ray claims. If it happened, was likely something like "Dodge" button was accidentally pushed. But even if it did happen, the cause of the accident was the plotted course along the 30-foot line was incredibly wreckless. Ray might as well blame the Nicholson sailboat, a respected build for its day, for not having a double hull.

Screenshot is my plotted approach to Turtle Bay with Rays course sketched in. Cutting the corner probably saves 20 mins or so but at obvious risk.
This is a essentially the identical course the other +100 Ha Ha boats plotted. Including Sandra Barnes, the owner of Boat Bum Gal who unfortunately deferred to Capt Rays credentials and experience of having been to Turtle Bay several times before.

The autopilot has nothing to do with accident. Even more ludicrous is Rays statement that BBG was in such poor condition that it would have sunk whether he was aboard or not Extremely poor judgement caused this. By his own initial account a couple days after the accident, he owns the decisions that led directly to the loss of BBG.

Peter
 

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psneeld said:
To me, managing an autopilot properly can be a bigger plus than a minus.

It really does depend, but staying on the track you want while searching desperately for the correct marks to me is a really good thing rather than having to hand steer while looking for marks and drifting out of the channel/safe water.

But like any new helmsman, it's gotta be supervised at least somewhat.

I believe a lot of experienced, shorthanded skippers use autopilot in a lot of situations.
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Agree. We went through a fog event, recently, no landmarks visible, I couldn't hand-steer for squat. AP got us through that...

Assumes the AP is actually working properly, of course.

-Chris
 
I'm really curious if the instances of the autopilot acting erratically on Boat Bum Girl was simply the AP correcting for cross track error. If not adjusted properly, my system can really startle me when operating in Navigation mode when it reaches my cross-track limit and makes a course adjustment to return to the rum line. A similar maneuver under sail would be of greater alarm and potentially cause a crash tack or accidental gybe, this of course would fall under user error and failure to understand the autopilot.

I find my autopilot does a better job of avoiding distraction and holding a course than I do especially with limited visual references. Something as simple a navigating into a channel of lighted marks, the autopilot does a better job of maintaining the course when following a channel of flashing lighted marks.
 
In the dark with minimal visual reference, I agree, an autopilot will generally out-steer a human. And if hand steering, you're not going to be nearly as focused on what's around you, as you end up putting a reasonable amount of focus on the compass and chartplotter XTE indication to keep your steering inputs calibrated and avoid drifting off course.
 
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