Will the Titanic claim a few more?

[Mako]

"Yes it was touristy, and yes, they probably added it for for theatrical effect, but contrived or not, I'll never forget that morning."

I bet you remember it for the rest of your years. Several words come to mind... creepy, solemn, humbling. Just knowing that you're crossing over the Titanic probably quiets the entire boat. It would be interesting to fit sonar/depth sounder with that range and sail over the ship.

 

[NaClyDog]

Well folks... this may be it...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671907901542211584

"A debris field was discovered within the search area by an ROV near the Titanic. Experts within the unified command are evaluating the information."

 

[AlaskaProf]

Suggests a quick and merciful end.

In all the talk of oxygen, I've heard no mention of four days of hypothermia.

 

[OldDan1943]

Side note: Total of 96 hours of air and oxygen. Now divided that by the 5 occupants…. Not much time.
Implosion would be quick and perhaps a better way to go.

 

[psneeld]

Side note: Total of 96 hours of air and oxygen. Now divided that by the 5 occupants…. Not much time.
Implosion would be quick and perhaps a better way to go.

I think the news (while thin at best technical wise) meant 96 hours for each aboard, not 96 total...could be wrong but the timeline seems to support 4 days survival for all occupants assuming that is a hard number and all lasted all 4 days.

 

[NaClyDog]

Titanic sub live updates: Landing frame and rear cover of sub found, says friend of passengers - BBC News


"A landing frame and a rear cover from the submersible" have been found, friend and expert David Mearns tells the BBC.

 

[Action]

Unfortunately, it appears the worst has occurred for this dive. And the Titanic has 5 more souls that have been lost.

 

[Hippocampus]

Corporate owner of vessel said they are lost according to NYT.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Titanic sub live updates: Landing frame and rear cover of sub found, says friend of passengers - BBC News


"A landing frame and a rear cover from the submersible" have been found, friend and expert David Mearns tells the BBC.

And both pressure bulkheads. Likely the cylinder shattered. Probably insufficient time to say, "What..."

 

[Nick14]

Just reported in the New York Times:

"Missing Titanic Sub Experienced 'Catastrophic implosion'"

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/0...6987&user_id=e109c44ba6abb60accbca271d27edc52

"A remote-controlled vehicle located debris from the Titan submersible, including its tail cone, on the ocean floor, about 1,600 feet from the bow of the Titanic. The debris is consistent with a catastrophic implosion of the vessel,” Admiral Mauger said.

 

[psneeld]

Good point. I hadn't thought of SOSUS. But would they tell us if they did know?

Just read these headlines on my news feeds....


FOX News
US Navy detected Titan sub implosion with top secret acoustic system day vessel went missing

The official said the Navy’s top secret acoustic detection system picked sounds that were consistent with either an explosion or an implosion near where the Titan was found on Thursday.

"While not definitive, this information was immediately shared with the Incident Commander to assist with the ongoing search and rescue mission," the official said in a statement to Fox News Digital.

 

[AlaskaProf]

I understand why it would have been kept secret, but what is served by revealing it now?
It's an expensive secret, especially if you're not going to keep it a secret.

Seems like the event command could have announced something like, "we have reason to believe the sub is disabled in the last known position and are rushing the necessary assets to that location."

 

[SteveK]

I understand why it would have been kept secret, but what is served by revealing it now?

Perhaps a way of saying we knew but until they got eyes on the wreck a search continued keeping hope alive. Had they revealed this immediately, then what would have happened?

 

[Comodave]

Perhaps a way of saying we knew but until they got eyes on the wreck a search continued keeping hope alive. Had they revealed this immediately, then what would have happened?

Agree. Until they determined with certainty that the submersible had sunk they didn’t want to say anything.

 

[mvweebles]

I read Psneeld's Post #101 differently - the technology the Navy used was secret, not the findings. Was a couple days ago that the noises were disclosed, though no further description was offered.

From the most recent NYT reporting:

On Sunday, a secret U.S. network of acoustic sensors picked up indications of a possible implosion in the vicinity of the submersible around the time communications with it were lost, a senior Navy official disclosed on Thursday. The search continued because there was no immediate confirmation that the Titan had met a disastrous end, according to a second senior Navy official. Both officials spoke anonymously to discuss operational details.

Also, would note that while the acoustic sensors picked-up the sound; the submersible was not reported missing for several hours. Communications between it and the mother ship had been lost in the past only to be re-established. It was many hours before the Mother Ship alerted the Coast Guard. Connecting all the dots likely took at least a day or two.

Peter

 

[dannc]

I read Psneeld's Post #101 differently - the technology the Navy used was secret, not the findings. Was a couple days ago that the noises were disclosed, though no further description was offered.

From the most recent NYT reporting:

On Sunday, a secret U.S. network of acoustic sensors picked up indications of a possible implosion in the vicinity of the submersible around the time communications with it were lost, a senior Navy official disclosed on Thursday. The search continued because there was no immediate confirmation that the Titan had met a disastrous end, according to a second senior Navy official. Both officials spoke anonymously to discuss operational details.

Also, would note that while the acoustic sensors picked-up the sound; the submersible was not reported missing for several hours. Communications between it and the mother ship had been lost in the past only to be re-established. It was many hours before the Mother Ship alerted the Coast Guard. Connecting all the dots likely took at least a day or two.

Peter

Yeah, connecting the dots took some time.

However, stating that the sensor network picked up the implosion of a itty, bitty vessel does indicate the sensitivity of the sensors.

This was not an implosion like the Scorpion or Thresher. One would think that keeping the capability of the sensors secret would be a good thing...

Later,
Dan

 

[OldDan1943]

Perhaps I know, perhaps I dont know. I cannot comment further.

 

[mvweebles]

Here's a NYT podcast (no subscription required)- 30-min interview of a fellow knowledgeable in deep submersible vehicles, a colleague of the Frenchman who died after many trips to the Titanic. I was struck by his "best case scenario." That the submersible became entangled with the wreckage of Titanic and might possible be freed by rescuers. Slim odds for a best-case.

Podcast was recorded late yesterday and released this morning, just a few hours before the announcement.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...GEtZmZiOC00OGMyLWI3YmQtNTUwYWM3MzZiZTQ2?ep=14

Peter

 

[tiltrider1]

Yeah, connecting the dots took some time.

However, stating that the sensor network picked up the implosion of a itty, bitty vessel does indicate the sensitivity of the sensors.

This was not an implosion like the Scorpion or Thresher. One would think that keeping the capability of the sensors secret would be a good thing...

Later,
Dan

I believe the navy is very sensitive to disclosing the amount of time it takes them to recognize Sound events. If they advertised the amount of time it takes to recognize a sound event the enemy would know how much time they have between making a noise and being discovered.

I do not believe things work in real time. Add to this, if the navy knew in real time what had happened, they knew there was no emergency, everything else that happened was good training.

 

[dannc]

Just noticed that the Wall Street Journal had a report on the USN sensor network an hour or so ago. I think it is behind a paywall, https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-na...-implosion-days-ago-6844cb12?mod=hp_lead_pos1

A top secret military acoustic detection system designed to spot enemy submarines first heard what the U.S. Navy suspected was the Titan submersible implosion hours after the submersible began its voyage, officials involved in the search said.

The Navy began listening for the Titan almost as soon as the sub lost communications, according to a U.S. defense official. Shortly after the submersible’s disappearance Sunday, the U.S. system detected what it suspected was the sound of an implosion near the debris site discovered Thursday and reported its findings to the Coast Guard commander on site, U.S. defense officials said.

While the Navy couldn’t say definitively the sound came from the Titan, the discovery played a role in narrowing the scope of the search for the vessel before its debris was discovered Thursday, the officials said.

“The U.S. Navy conducted an analysis of acoustic data and detected an anomaly consistent with an implosion or explosion in the general vicinity of where the Titan submersible was operating when communications were lost,” a senior U.S. Navy official told The Wall Street Journal in a statement. “While not definitive, this information was immediately shared with the Incident Commander to assist with the ongoing search and rescue mission.”

Searchers found debris from the submersible roughly 1,600 feet from the bow of the Titanic wreckage, the U.S. Coast Guard said. Canadian, U.S. and French ships were part of the search.

The Coast Guard didn’t immediately respond to requests for comment about what information it received and how it was used.

Throughout the search, rescue crews detected several types of noises, U.S. and Canadian officials said, including the one suspected of being the sub’s implosion. An underwater implosion is the sudden collapse of a submarine when the tremendous pressure of the seawater overpowers the pressure inside the vessel and crushes it.

Officials leading the search also said they heard sounds similar to knocking from the vessel, but said they couldn’t conclude the noises came from the Titan.

It was unclear what other factors narrowed the search area, which eventually grew to twice the size of Connecticut. But a U.S. defense official said “the analysis of the acoustic data was a significant factor in scoping the search area, and thereby enabling the assets on scene to locate the degree of the debris field.”

“It looks that the Titan imploded on Sunday on its way down to the Titanic shortly after contact was lost at a depth of around 9,000 feet,” a person with direct knowledge of the matter said.

Later,
Dan

 

[AlaskaProf]

Yeah, connecting the dots took some time.

However, stating that the sensor network picked up the implosion of a itty, bitty vessel does indicate the sensitivity of the sensors.

This was not an implosion like the Scorpion or Thresher. One would think that keeping the capability of the sensors secret would be a good thing...

Later,
Dan

.
Yes. and it may well be that the Navy was faced with a Hobson's Choice: how to reveal without revealing.

I certainly have no need to criticize thousands of people mobilized by their humanity, but there were two responses available from the outset:


1. We are going to the rescue of a downed submarine at a (nearly) known location, ala Squalus.

2. We are searching an area the size of Massachusetts for a 22 foot boat with no freeboard.

The people in charge made what they thought to be a sound decision, but it was a very expensive choice.

 

[psneeld]

Even with the alert from the Navy, I ciuld see the incident commander setting up 2 search areas.

One surface, one subsurface. Some articles seem to be intermixing the two and their timelines which is confusing.

 

[Mako]

This type of tourism is beyond what would be called "adventure tourism." It is dangerous and the companies which operate in it are generally extremely safety-conscious. Almost paranoid.

I work for a company in a similar business, and Harding was our past client. It's all the talk at the office about what happened and the reportedly deficient safety standards of that OceanGate company.

Not sure what the repercussions will be from this event. Perhaps even more robust surveillance of equipment, NDT, safety checks, etc. Hopefully it will weed out the smaller more cavalier operators, especially those which are not well-funded enough to ensure safe operations.

 

[Simi 60]

Let that sink in.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Not to mention they fired their guy who had safety concerns.

 

[Mako]

Back to post #68, imagine how that guy is feeling. It's humbling when you realize you could have been one of the victims.

 

[Mako]

10's of thousands of dollars spent responding to the capsized boat on the left. Tens of millions to the one on the right. Not sure how to defend that. Probably a conversation better left to the academics.

 

[BruceK]

So the sub was defective, and there was no straightforward way to retrieve/rescue it at the anticipated depth. High risk activity. Hope the pax all knew that.
Will it ever be known what failed, why,and how?

 

[soin2la]

So the sub was defective, and there was no straightforward way to retrieve/rescue it at the anticipated depth. High risk activity. Hope the pax all knew that.
Will it ever be known what failed, why,and how?

I keep thinking of your typical 19 year old and their ability to filter the 'high risk activity." Sometimes they do stuff to prove something to thier dad, or themseles.

Pity the mom, who lost a husband and a son. Was she in favor? Another answer we will never know.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Will it ever be known what failed, why,and how?

Yes and no. I don't claim to any engineering knowledge, but much of the criticism, including years before this "incident" center on the use of untested carbon fiber for the body of the craft. Given that both of the metallic bulkheads survived, the attention must be focused there. That may be all we will ever know, but it seems an indictment of the (deceased) head of the firm. His epitaph may well read: "certification inhibits innovation."