What will the Marina War mean to you?

[backinblue]

Many of those stores became Ace and were still single privately owner. Then the owner either built another store or sold to someone with more.

Not really the case where I am. I think Ace and Tractor Supply are more prevalent down south. Where I live it's mostly HD or Lowes and not much else. When I was younger there were small but great h/w stores in most towns but they are gone now and not because they turned into Ace.

 

[rslifkin]

Not really the case where I am. I think Ace and Tractor Supply are more prevalent down south. Where I live it's mostly HD or Lowes and not much else. When I was younger there were small but great h/w stores in most towns but they are gone now and not because they turned into Ace.

We've got Tractor Supply up north as well. They stick more to areas with farming and generally more rural areas.

 

[BandB]

Not really the case where I am. I think Ace and Tractor Supply are more prevalent down south. Where I live it's mostly HD or Lowes and not much else. When I was younger there were small but great h/w stores in most towns but they are gone now and not because they turned into Ace.

I did a quick look at stores in your area. The independent stores remaining are all so small. We've found a hardware store needs to be at least 10,000 sq ft and preferable size is 15,000. In highly populated areas, there are exceptions down to 6,000 sq ft. In your area, West and Langdon looked interesting, but one I really found exciting to look at, old time store all the way, was Barnum in Bridgeport. Great reviews too. If you've never checked Barnum out, I would suggest it's as near as you can come to what you're talking about. Check it out.

 

[guy with a boat]

The problem isn’t that young people don’t want a business, they just don’t want a business that is marginally profitable. Its hard to justify working 60 hrs a week for wages. Build a business that is highly profitable and you will find lots of buyers of all ages. Too many family businesses aren’t profitable enough to justify the investment, sacrifices and hours as compared to alternatives.

 

[BandB]

The problem isn’t that young people don’t want a business, they just don’t want a business that is marginally profitable. Its hard to justify working 60 hrs a week for wages. Build a business that is highly profitable and you will find lots of buyers of all ages. Too many family businesses aren’t profitable enough to justify the investment, sacrifices and hours as compared to alternatives.

Too many small businesses, especially single location businesses, don't make enough to provide both reasonable compensation for hours worked and a return on investment. I've seen persons working 60 hours a week managing their store and earning $75,000 a year. Sounds ok, but they could work 45-50 hours a week managing someone else's store and make nearly the same with no risk. Just not worth it. A single location rarely is.

Over the last 25 years or so two businesses stood out. Subway or other sandwich shops and postal or shipping locations. Both heavily targeted retired military. They lacked non-military work experience and were worried about what to do. Adding to their military retirement, they could make $40-60k. Many didn't realize how little that was for their hours, effort, and risks. Owning those businesses will give a profit equal to what one might earn in a job, but a single location of either will never provide good wages plus profits for ownership.

It's not just young people not wanting to do this. It's all who calculate the time and effort and value their time and investment.

 

[ranger58sb]

A period (.) is a good thing. A space after a comma is a good thing. Paragraphs are good things.

/rant off

-Chris

 

[Hippocampus]

Enjoyed the conversation but humbly suggest the contributors aren’t considering several increasing segments of society as they have a background of running successful businesses. Other folks operate from a different gestalt. These folks aren’t being driven by any business model. To my mind fall into three general groups.
Slackers-not interested in getting ahead nor being stressed in any work environment.

Those seeking a “meaningful life” - have two daughters. One does cancer research at Farber. She several times a year gets offers from industry and could start at 3-4 times her current income. The other works fund raising at a non profit so is in daily contact with ceo, cfo, coo types. She has business and “leadership “ degrees giving her initials after her name. Again she gets repetitive offers at multiples of her current income to work on the other side. Both want enough to comfortably raise a family and never worry about Payless Paydays. Beyond that not driven by income. One is the major breadwinner (husband a school teacher). The other equal (husband an engineer). Chance of either working for industry is remote.

Those who don’t find work a defining element of who they are- this maybe the largest group will use a couple of nephews as examples highly but have multiple nieces and nephews in this group. He did his twenty as a air force officer. Then became a civilian employee (part time) and consultant (also part time). Commonly will put it down for 1 to 4 months and travel. Might bicycle through Europe or a walking tour of SA or SE Asia. Hasn’t lived in the US for decades. Will fully retire in early fifties.
Another nephew went to college but decided he had no interest in doing the inside work for which he studied. He’s a musician. Decided to chuck it and became a union journeyman glazier. Makes a decent living but his energies are in his music.

The universal point is a significant segment of the gen A, Z, X & Y have zero interest in “getting ahead”. The issue of hours spent for dollars received is not part of the calculus. The interest is in living a “good life”. Walking in beauty (Navaho expression), golden path (Buddhist expression), giving back ( universal to all traditions).

 

[guy with a boat]

The universal point is a significant segment of the gen A, Z, X & Y have zero interest in “getting ahead”. The issue of hours spent for dollars received is not part of the calculus. The interest is in living a “good life”. Walking in beauty (Navaho expression), golden path (Buddhist expression), giving back ( universal to all traditions).

Hippo, don’t you think that maybe they just have a different definition of getting ahead? It seems that all your examples are doing what is important to them and that is what will make them happy and fulfilled. All generations have a spectrum of people with different strengths and desires. We may look at following generations differently than we looked at our peers, but the mix has always been there.

There always have only been a small minority of people that are interested in running their own business, and are willing to make the required sacrifices to be successful. The slacker group has always been present and visible. You may be right about the slacker group increasing in size but its hard to say, and hopefully some of that group turns into hard workers as they mature.

I’m encouraged by what I see from my kids (young adults) and their friends. A difference I see is that even the most intense and ambitious ones are better about having some work/life balance than many were in earlier generations. Their travels and adventures look like distractions to some, but they are already financially successful and will likely (hopefully) be happier as a result of that mix. The knowledge they get from those experiences will certainly benefit them and those around them.

Bottom line? Younger gens are different but there is a great mix of talent and willingness to work. They may focus that work differently than you or I but that might be an improvement.

Marinas that are profitable (or can be with good management) will survive and, when necessary, find willing buyers. Capitalism will eventually “fix” the others, meaning income will be increased or the marinas will be converted to more profitable uses. That process is inevitable and the pool of younger workers and investors won’t be the limiting factor.

 

[twistedtree]

Enjoyed the conversation but humbly suggest the contributors aren’t considering several increasing segments of society as they have a background of running successful businesses. Other folks operate from a different gestalt. These folks aren’t being driven by any business model. To my mind fall into three general groups.
Slackers-not interested in getting ahead nor being stressed in any work environment.

Those seeking a “meaningful life” - have two daughters. One does cancer research at Farber. She several times a year gets offers from industry and could start at 3-4 times her current income. The other works fund raising at a non profit so is in daily contact with ceo, cfo, coo types. She has business and “leadership “ degrees giving her initials after her name. Again she gets repetitive offers at multiples of her current income to work on the other side. Both want enough to comfortably raise a family and never worry about Payless Paydays. Beyond that not driven by income. One is the major breadwinner (husband a school teacher). The other equal (husband an engineer). Chance of either working for industry is remote.

Those who don’t find work a defining element of who they are- this maybe the largest group will use a couple of nephews as examples highly but have multiple nieces and nephews in this group. He did his twenty as a air force officer. Then became a civilian employee (part time) and consultant (also part time). Commonly will put it down for 1 to 4 months and travel. Might bicycle through Europe or a walking tour of SA or SE Asia. Hasn’t lived in the US for decades. Will fully retire in early fifties.
Another nephew went to college but decided he had no interest in doing the inside work for which he studied. He’s a musician. Decided to chuck it and became a union journeyman glazier. Makes a decent living but his energies are in his music.

The universal point is a significant segment of the gen A, Z, X & Y have zero interest in “getting ahead”. The issue of hours spent for dollars received is not part of the calculus. The interest is in living a “good life”. Walking in beauty (Navaho expression), golden path (Buddhist expression), giving back ( universal to all traditions).

I see the same thing in my kids' generation. It's pursuit of "life satisfaction", and everyone finds it in different ways. I think it's a good way to go, provided you don't become a dead beat or leach on society. Thankfully, none of them are - actually quite the opposite.

 

[klee wyck]

I think Guy w/a Boat offers useful perspective on this and it matches with my experience. It is a mixture for sure with some worrisome trends, but there is still a lot of inspiring young talent and will out there.
I worry some about the barriers to entry compared to when I broke into that world. Capital requirements and regulatory barriers just seem much more ominous now. Also, so much of modern business is built on mountains of debt/financial engineering, and I can certainly understand why a (smarter?) generation may have less appetite for that sort of life.

 

[kthoennes]

Funny, for all the seminars and presentations I've heard on generational workforce differences, I think I've distilled things into a few conclusions:

1. On average, farm kids still work harder and are better employees than most.

2. "Following your bliss" and not focusing on a given line of work or career for a good chunk of your life is all well and good, and sometimes I wish I had sailed the world for example instead of concentrating on a career and working so hard too -- HOWEVER, in the long run, following your bliss usually means you're much less likely to accumulate the asset base to have all the stuff and experiences in life that you might really enjoy, or be able to follow your bliss later. (Unless you get lucky or inherit from parents/relatives.)

3. The general decline in hard work and focus and discipline and deferred gratification does make it easier for those who are most driven and disciplined to excel. Even a little drive goes a long way now and is delightful to see once in a while. (I remember when I was in a (very good, public) high school we all knew each other's class academic rankings and the competition was intense. I'm not sure that would ever occur to most kids now and probably seems very cut-throat.)

 

[BandB]

3. The general decline in hard work and focus and discipline and deferred gratification does make it easier for those who are most driven and disciplined to excel. Even a little drive goes a long way now and is delightful to see once in a while. (I remember when I was in a (very good, public) high school we all knew each other's class academic rankings and the competition was intense. I'm not sure that would ever occur to most kids now and probably seems very cut-throat.)

Wifey B: The pressure today, the intense competition is far worse than when either of us was in school. My hubby never knew his ranking and as I left school at 16, I didn't know mine. However, today they compete hard to build resumes for college admission and scholarships. Parents insist on extra tutoring and outside help for kids who are well above average but not at the top. The competition for scholarships is out of control. The pressure to get into specific colleges is also intense. So much of the pressure is like other things in life, driven by money. I've seen kids subjected to torturous high school lives because their SAT's or GPA weren't equal to another student. How do you explain to the unreasonable parent that your Jane just isn't as smart and Susie.

I think the academic pressure kids face in school today is as high as it's ever been and then you toss in the social pressure and you have the increase in suicides.

 

[Slowboattochina]

I am a commercial real estate developer in NY. There is plenty of investment money for new marinas. There is plenty of demand. The problem is regulations. In our state it is the Department of Environmental Protection. The way our State Environmental Quality Review Application is administered I could, all by myself, stall a project indefinitely until the developer ran out of money regardless of how environmentally friendly the project is.
Un-elected bureaucrats make "regulations" that have the force of law. You can be fined or jailed for violating them. With new marinas not possible existing ones will continue to escalate in price.

 

[psneeld]

Even elected bureaucrats can stifle environmentally as well as fiscally responsible and overall public good projects ..... just depends which hurdle you are clearing before the next one.

Some circles don't believe the pressure today is any different than any other generation of students.

My one son has 2 days of a community college, is considered a genius by many, is way ahead of his brother who just got his doctorate in physical therapy...but the younger brother I am sure will catch up fast (great social skills he developed in the Navy and circle of friends). Neither one thought much of their education...one tossed it aside and the other used the system to get a free education and should by all measure succeed as well. One laughs at class standings and academia, the other often told me the horror stories of how things were before, during and after COVID did its thing to college level students because of crazy program changes/issues.

No... I don't think there's more or less pressure....it has always been how much pressure your parents, peers, teachers, coaches, outside mentors place upon you and what you place upon yourself.

 

[smitty477]

I heard Safe Harbor bought Gurneys in Montauk NY.

 

[Hippocampus]

My concern is not only the escalation in soft costs but the solidification of the old boys(and now girls) network. My experience is limited but includes house construction and building a medical center among other things. Beyond having to deal with conservation at town, county, state and federal levels as well as issues concerning biohazard, radiation and nuclear at times the more basic concerns and permitting was more difficult. Advice to hire this firm of engineers or that firm of —— was well justified all to often. That plus resistance to accepting applications utilizing new technologies made things difficult.
Putting in a set of waterfront condos is one thing. Putting in a marina with various toxic wastes, flammable materials, high energy use, and environmental concerns not applicable to residential housing is a different kettle of fish. Then there’s issues of historical preservation. The local marina wanted to tear down a building. Originally it was a warehouse which is old enough to be of significant historical interest. Actually a pretty building as well. They’re fighting it out now. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Emotionally favor preservation of the structure but then again I don’t like or use that marina.

 

[backinblue]

I heard Safe Harbor bought Gurneys in Montauk NY.

Gurneys was good, but not a bargain by any means, so I don't see this as a bad thing and maybe actually good. When it comes to any marina and what they charge, everyone is afraid of rising prices. But in reality I think it's simple if they want to double their prices. Boaters will pay up or go elsewhere or quit boating. It's really simple and marinas are a business, not a charity, so they are entitled to make whatever profit they can from what we are willing to pay for. It's a delicate balance and I'm sure marinas know this very well. Better to be 100% full at $$ or 80% full at $$$? They can do the math including all the ancillary income from service and supplies and restaurants, etc.