Theodore Roosevelt Captain Being Reinstated

[KnotYet]

No, I am not calling you a fool. My apologies if it seemed that I was.
I made a general statement and probably could have made it a better one.
I mean that people make foolish statements, not 'science'. Science works.

 

[psneeld]

No, I am not calling you a fool. My apologies if it seemed that I was.
I made a general statement and probably could have made it a better one.
I mean that people make foolish statements, not 'science'. Science works.

I agree science mostly works...but it's only as good as the scientists....both in the lab and in the reporting.

Pluto's a planet, well maybe not....butter is bad, margarine is good.....well maybe not.....and plenty more...

These last few months, I wouldn't bet the ranch on anything that wasn't widely accepted well before the pandemic.

And even then, reading between the lines is often the better answer, which in many threads I dont think is happening.

 

[Peter B]

I agree science mostly works...but it's only as good as the scientists....both in the lab and in the reporting.
Pluto's a planet, well maybe not....butter is bad, margarine is good.....well maybe not.....and plenty more...
These last few months, I wouldn't bet the ranch on anything that wasn't widely accepted well before the pandemic.
And even then, reading between the lines is often the better answer, which in many threads I dont think is happening.

Fair comment. As a now retired family Dr, but one also trained in microbiology, I am really concerned about how little we know about this particular virus...still..!

We don't quite understand why it is so more infectious than most others, other than the fact it seems 'more sticky'.

We don't know for sure that if one survives it one is 'immune,' or if so...for how long..? The cases of relapse, or re-infection now identified, some on the very ship the subject of this thread, just does not compute with our normal understanding of immunity, resistance to past disease, etc.

If immunity does not result for a fair number, why, and it kind of makes a vaccine unlikely to be the BIG answer.

The huge variation in severity between folk who contract the thing is also puzzling. Some almost symptom free, other dying in days or less. This is almost unique to Covid.

Now we find it also causes quite a few more insults to the body than first thought, like the clotting issue, and this Kawasaki variant in children, which initially were thought to be almost 'safe' from real harm from it.

The science of Covid is still very much in its infancy. So much so we can't really rely on it yet. It keeps throwing up curve-balls. Let's just hope the vaccines work, and until then, as others have raised on other threads, maybe everyone should institute their own level of protection and distancing they feel they can do, irrespective of what the 'authorities' allow. Rather be more conservative that less, that's for sure. Huge secondary and tertiary spokes in cases and deaths would be even more devastating that what has gone on to now.

 

[psneeld]

Little things keep me curious. Being an out of the box thinker...it strikes me that through this whole thing. I see things that rarely seemed to be discussed publicly. Well, usually not till many weeks later after discussing things with my friends/family.

I get contagion... not exactly rocket science at the very basics level.

Today I leave to go see my son in New Jersey. I lived up there till last year. The county I am going to has 1/3 the population, is similar in density and dwellings, businesses, etc. It is surrounded by water and about 100 miles from the edge of a hot spot. Yet it has 10X the cases and 10X the deaths.

That's a pretty striking difference.with not a lot of demographics that are different except one is in a cold climate and the other in a warm area.

For the science absolutists...I love to hear an explanation (in a different thread).

 

[angus99]

Little things keep me curious. Being an out of the box thinker...it strikes me that through this whole thing. I see things that rarely seemed to be discussed publicly. Well, usually not till many weeks later after discussing things with my friends/family.

I get contagion... not exactly rocket science at the very basics level.

Today I leave to go see my son in New Jersey. I lived up there till last year. The county I am going to has 1/3 the population, is similar in density and dwellings, businesses, etc. It is surrounded by water and about 100 miles from the edge of a hot spot. Yet it has 10X the cases and 10X the deaths.

That's a pretty striking difference.with not a lot of demographics that are different except one is in a cold climate and the other in a warm area.

For the science absolutists...I love to hear an explanation (in a different thread).

Science is based on observation, theory and experimentation—basically trial and error—so mistakes and misleading results are baked in, particularly in the early stages of an inquiry. Which is why it’s often dangerous to make sweeping conclusions based on limited info. I’m far from an absolutist but isn’t an approach that attempts to be based on data, rigor and reality better than guesswork? Would anyone feel comfortable crossing a busy intersection blindfolded because they “have a feeling” they could do it safely?

 

[psneeld]

My point exactly.

I will bet everybody on TF understands what science is and isn't.

I just heard the word being thrown around by people that have no more clue what's going on than anybody else.

I've spent two careers doing things that I had no idea whether they were going to turn out safe or not

Okay I'm done now with coronavirus tit for tat.

I'll stick with the two things that I know ....boats and some of the US military. Pretty much nothing else I'm qualified to discuss in detail but I'm glad so many here are.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 99. An appropriate comment on science ( observation, theory and experimentation—basically trial and error) IMO but you left out interpretation and bias.


Yes, I know, there is no heading in the Scientific Method for bias but it does exist. Science enables a "best guess" which, in a lot of cases, is quite sufficient but not so much in others.



https://www.britannica.com/science/scientific-method

 

[Boat]

A survey shows 51% of Canadians believe there is such a thing as love at first sight. The other 49% are men."

Nine out ten doctors agree the tenth one should really chill out.

Five out of six people agree: Russian Roulette is completely safe

Four of five doctors offered their condolences, the fifth one just said, "She's dead all right."

Skrattnet, because 20 out of 10 schizophrenics recommend us.

For the classic disassembly of these sort of statistics, may we recommend Darrell Huff's How to Lie with Statistics? The 1950s were a lot less naive than you might assume. And indeed, this is a subtrope of Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.

https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Nine_Out_of_Ten_Doctors_Agree


The line between marketing or propaganda and science has worn thin.

 

[angus99]

Greetings,
Mr. 99. An appropriate comment on science ( observation, theory and experimentation—basically trial and error) IMO but you left out interpretation and bias.


Yes, I know, there is no heading in the Scientific Method for bias but it does exist. Science enables a "best guess" which, in a lot of cases, is quite sufficient but not so much in others.



https://www.britannica.com/science/scientific-method

No disagreement on the existence bias here, RT. And if I implied blind faith in science, that was certainly not intended. But bias is what peer review and multiple reproducible studies are intended to root out. All that said, I’ll accept scientific consensus more readily than opinions from anecdote peddlers, faith healers or armchair analysts—which we, as a society, seem to have more than our share of.

. . . and present company excluded

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 99. Indeed so.

 

[Peter B]

Today I leave to go see my son in New Jersey. I lived up there till last year. The county I am going to has 1/3 the population, is similar in density and dwellings, businesses, etc. It is surrounded by water and about 100 miles from the edge of a hot spot. Yet it has 10X the cases and 10X the deaths.

That's a pretty striking difference.with not a lot of demographics that are different except one is in a cold climate and the other in a warm area.

For the science absolutists...I love to hear an explanation (in a different thread).

Ok, one final Covid comment psn, seein' you asked, but may partly answer your question, although I agree this thread is meant to be about the TR Carrier...

Our immune system does not work so well when cooled down too much. hence the common saying re "catching a chill," or "catching a 'cold."

Also, that is why the body raises its temperature when fighting a bug, (ie fever) and why it is best to not expend too much energy trying to lower it, other than to knock the extreme highs down because it feels so rotten when very high. But a moderate fever helps. Does that help..?

Ok, thread hijack over, now back to the Carrier TR, and Captain Crozier. Have they decided yet - has he been reinstated or is that still under deliberation..?

 

[menzies]

Ok, thread hijack over, now back to the Carrier TR, and Captain Crozier. Have they decided yet - has he been reinstated or is that still under deliberation..?

Way back on page 2!

BTW, a new investigation has been ordered with results by May 27. So he is not reinstated yet.

 

[Peter B]

Ok, so no change. I thought it possible you folk nearer the action might have heard something not yet posted.

 

[psneeld]

My military experience say the longer it takes to reinstate, the less likely to happen.

If he is exonerated by many seniors, he may get a public statement of it and a great job afterward.

The old saying is " you'll either get courts martialed or a medal" after you have done something controversial.

 

[ancora]

My son is a chief engineer in the merchant marine, working for the largest shipping company in the world. At no time does anyone leave the ship, in any port, until it's time for a crew change. The only one to come aboard and leave is the ship's harbor pilot. Maybe it's time for the Navy to rethink it's shore leave policy?

 

[psneeld]

While the Merchant Marine is a time-honored profession and during wartime is as heroic is any.... During peacetime you can not even remotely compare the two.

Maybe in the rare instance.

 

[ancora]

While the Merchant Marine is a time-honored profession and during wartime is as heroic is any.... During peacetime you can not even remotely compare the two.

Maybe in the rare instance.

The security of ship and crew is of vital importance to my son's company, not so much the US Navy.

 

[psneeld]

The security of ship and crew is of vital importance to my son's company, not so much the US Navy.

Really?

He is lucky then. But I might question that like cruise ships, it might be as much the host nation refusing shore leave as the company. That was one of the issues of where to disembark the crew of the carrier Theodore Roosevelt.

But I wouldn't generalize about either service.

 

[Peter B]

Well, the 25th has been and gone. Anything announced re the good captain's fate yet..?

By the way, psn. Did you see my reply to your question back up there in post #131..?

 

[psneeld]

Well, the 25th has been and gone. Anything announced re the good captain's fate yet..?

By the way, psn. Did you see my reply to your question back up there in post #131..?

I am sorry, yes thanks for the explanation.

In addition....I do think there are the other warmer climes reasons too ....such as time outdoors and the way buildings are utilized, possibly UV light intensity, etc....each not so much but maybe all combined...

I have not seen any updates of the total investigation into the matter that may ultimately affect the reinstatement.....as I posted before...the longer it takes the less likely it will happen in my experience.

 

[Andy G]

As Peter managed a a hijack, I will offer one up.

The posts on scientific rigor are interesting. However science has to deal with the human factor, and that often skews the outcome.

An interesting and fascinating read with some pertinent observations about the study of viruses and the scientists who study them, is Bill Bryson's The Body:A Guide For the Occupants. Highly recommended.

Sorry, back to the captain.

 

[angus99]

Looks like the fat lady has sung. I’m shocked.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/19/politics/uss-roosevelt-investigation/index.html

 

[rgano]

I am unaware of such a decision ever being reversed in the US Navy. Not saying it may have happened. For those interested in a lot of gritty details about on infamous Vietnam era case, get a copy of the Arnheiter Affair. Reads a lot like the novel The Caine Mutiny.

 

[angus99]

Rich, do you mean the original decision or the do-over?

 

[rgano]

Rich, do you mean the original decision or the do-over?

I have never seen a do-over investigation, and I have no knowledge of a reversal of a relief from command at sea for cause. Incidentally, I saw an article a couple of years ago that the Navy relieves about 26 commanding officers for cause a year. That would include MANY entities other than ships, including SEALs, aircraft squadrons, special boat squadrons, and any number of shore-based commands.

 

[Northern Spy]

Captain Charles B. McVay III, CO of USS Indianapolis, CA-35, official Navy service record was cleared of all wrongdoing (56 years later).

I toast him and his crew.

 

[JLD]

I find it interesting that the new probe apparently did not examine why the Roosevelt, and its nearly 5,000 crew members, made a long-scheduled, four-day port call in Da Nang, Vietnam, beginning on March 5, despite reported cases of the coronavirus in the country.

I would hope that the Navy learned something from the debacle, and is looking at new procedures on what to do next time there is a serious viral outbreak and how to better mitigate it once it is on board a ship.

Jim

 

[rgano]

Captain Charles B. McVay III, CO of USS Indianapolis, CA-35, official Navy service record was cleared of all wrongdoing (56 years later).

I toast him and his crew.

Sad as it was, McVay's case has no relevance to the discussion of Crozier. McVay was not relieved for cause as Crozier was but rather court martialed for the loss of his ship based in part upon the testimony of the Japanese captain of the sub which sank the Indianapolis, totally unprecedented. It was the court martial sentence which was reversed, not the administrative decision surrounding relief for cause.

 

[sbu22]

Looks like the fat lady has sung. I’m shocked.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/19/politics/uss-roosevelt-investigation/index.html

Perfectly predictable. Not even close.

 

[psneeld]

Read this in a NY Times article...not sure of its accuracy....interesting though.

"This week, Navy Secretary Gordon R. England ordered that a memorandum reflecting the Congressional resolution be put into Captain McVay's file. (Technically, the Navy itself is powerless to nullify the court-martial findings, Mr. England said in a letter to Senator Smith.)"

How many former military guys said it was the most likely outcome?