BruceK
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Franz Kafka would understand.
Theodore Roosevelt Captain Being Reinstated
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
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menzies
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So would Frank Zappa!
psneeld
Guru
The military is ultimately directed by politicians...who are swayed by public opinion and media.
That's why the military tries so hard to keep things internal, then is blasted for lack of transparency.
The days of the military being the junk yard dog, put out back in peacetime and then beat when ill prepared for war are long gone. But at least then, perfection and political correctness didn't cloud the mix so much too....including it is necessary, but tempered.
That's why the military tries so hard to keep things internal, then is blasted for lack of transparency.
The days of the military being the junk yard dog, put out back in peacetime and then beat when ill prepared for war are long gone. But at least then, perfection and political correctness didn't cloud the mix so much too....including it is necessary, but tempered.
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Bryant
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TR
Not only that, there were only 3 addressees: all admirals in the chain of command. The other 7 were cc’d, were Captains and either on the ship or the admiral’s assistants. Everyone who received that email was in the chain of command or had a direct interest in it.
Basically, everything that was said about that email, from official channels, was false.
Not only that, there were only 3 addressees: all admirals in the chain of command. The other 7 were cc’d, were Captains and either on the ship or the admiral’s assistants. Everyone who received that email was in the chain of command or had a direct interest in it.
Basically, everything that was said about that email, from official channels, was false.
psneeld
Guru
No matter what method you use, you are taking a risk by going around the chain of command, or arguing with it....too much.
If you use a non-standard method of addressing something, and it gets leaked...another career harpoon.
Career officers never have the latitude of a civilian superior, especially POTUS.
Because in the military there NO chain of command doesn’t work. Also you only have ONE person in the chain of command you report to and work for not ten.
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AnnapolisJoy
Veteran Member
Chain of command violation
Period.
Period.
Les_Garten
Veteran Member
The Captain was the leaker.
Putting him back in charge is crazy. His career should be and is history
If he was going to Torpedo his career, he should have done it within the military line of command and communication. He's not stupid, he knew his career was over when he did this.
I would sum it up this way, he was morally correct and Militarily wrong.
You cannot have your military playing the media, that dog don't hunt.
The real idiot was the acting SecNav
Northern Spy
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Might be a little Brown Shoe vs. Black Shoe going on too.
His email was addressed to "Fellow Naval Aviators".
The commander of the 7th Fleet wears dolphins and was omitted from the email.
His email was addressed to "Fellow Naval Aviators".
The commander of the 7th Fleet wears dolphins and was omitted from the email.
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sbu22
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X2, Les. Disagree on the "morally correct" - That CVN was out there for a (actually several) good reasons. Parking a strategic asset shifted potential vulnerability to other ships, air wings, and crews.
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menzies
Guru
Are you saying he decided to park it unilaterally and not the Pentagon?
Les_Garten
Veteran Member
"Morally correct" comes from he had a legitimate issue affecting the lives of his crew. Basically his ship was going to be out of commission no matter what. That is a foregone conclusion. His ship was sick. Bad sick. This virus on a carrier? Bad news. This was going to end with the ship parked no matter what. He was gonna get hung for it most likely. Bad ugly business what happened. But he had to go. He was in a Lose, Lose, Lose situation.
He was on his way to getting a flag, so it is a shame what happened. This guy is smart, talented, and a political animal. You don't get to that level having not mastered those talents usually.
The only way he could have possibly saved himself would have been to cause an internal S-Storm that stayed within the Fleet. That's not what happened.
My Naval Academy roommate was the captain of a Trident missile submarine.
Upon return to port following a deployment the boat was being pushed around in the channel by a couple of Navy tugs which were under the supervision of a pilot. They shoved the boat firmly into the mud...and that was the end of my friend's journey to the stars. He was relegated to a staff job and elected to retire. RHIP and RHIR.
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Les_Garten
Veteran Member
When you think of Capt Crozier's accomplishments in life, and his ability to make the right decisions in stressful situations year after year, and doing it right, time after time, he must have been seriously conflicted in his mind to make that decision.
As much as I think he had to be fired from his dream job and booted from what was a stellar career path, I am very empathetic towards him and what he had to do.
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So let me get this straight. Even though he had an impeccable service record up until this pandemic caused a crisis on board his ship, for which he appeared to be not getting the support he needed to combat it from the normal chain of command, (one suspects, for the same reason a certain country tried to keep the lid on the beginning of this thing), he should still be fired, and not reinstated. And this because he let morality temporarily over-rule the nit-picky chain of command rule, because he feared for the lives of his men, and knew it rendered his vessel unfit for purpose..? Ok...?
BruceK
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We had Ruby Princess generate maybe 900 infections and kill around 25 here. Diamond Princess got close to that. A navy ship has way less isolation opportunity than a crew ship. A good Captain would do everything he could for his crew and ship, and he did. Sometimes it`s better to seek forgiveness than permission. That he was reinstated says it all. These are terrible times that generate out of usual solutions.
Les_Garten
Veteran Member
So let me get this straight. Even though he had an impeccable service record up until this pandemic caused a crisis on board his ship, for which he appeared to be not getting the support he needed to combat it from the normal chain of command, (one suspects, for the same reason a certain country tried to keep the lid on the beginning of this thing), he should still be fired, and not reinstated. And this because he let morality temporarily over-rule the nit-picky chain of command rule, because he feared for the lives of his men, and knew it rendered his vessel unfit for purpose..? Ok...?
Military is a different environment. I didn't say normal chain of command. That obviously wasn't working for him. If he was going to take a chance and blow up his career, take a chance and blow it up internally, it may be salvageable. Interacting with command via the San Francisco chronicle won't work. We have enough government BS'ers doing that. Should have been fired on the spot, which is what happened to him. Hard thing to say. Everybody understands why he did what he did.
Les_Garten
Veteran Member
Ahhh, when was he reinstated?
BruceK
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He wasn`t? I thought he was. He should be.
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As I understand it - possibly wrongly - it was someone in his close chain of command - ie a fellow Commander - who leaked it to the press. Not the author of the email.
Originally Posted by woodland hills...
"That is fake news. He sent it to 10 people all with the rank of captain and above. He put mission readiness above his own career: You cannot fight an aircraft carrier with 30 to 40 percent of your crew sick."
Originally Posted by woodland hills...
"That is fake news. He sent it to 10 people all with the rank of captain and above. He put mission readiness above his own career: You cannot fight an aircraft carrier with 30 to 40 percent of your crew sick."
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psneeld
Guru
People with perfect records are retired every year.. My boss was astounded after reviewing my 23 years of evaluations and my first pass over for promotion.
Once above a certain level, in the US, you become as much politician as military officer....especially if in command selections.
Not playing nice with just one other who also has connections, can put you off the table in the next round of promotions
And it doesn't matter who leaked it.... to a point...just that it was.
I may not be totally accurate as my career ended a bit of time ago..but keeping an eye on old friends and news I think has worked....but rumors are that the promotion process may be changing.
Once above a certain level, in the US, you become as much politician as military officer....especially if in command selections.
Not playing nice with just one other who also has connections, can put you off the table in the next round of promotions
And it doesn't matter who leaked it.... to a point...just that it was.
I may not be totally accurate as my career ended a bit of time ago..but keeping an eye on old friends and news I think has worked....but rumors are that the promotion process may be changing.
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FF
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IF all the CO wanted was to get the attention of the folks above him all he had to do was send a FLASH message.
Les_Garten
Veteran Member
You seem to be missing the point as well as some others here. You can't run a Military where personnel use the media to effect whatever change they are trying to accomplish. That's why he had to go, doesn't matter his motives. He could have got what he wanted and Torpedo'd his career internally. He might have survived that. What's he gonna do next? Can't trust his judgement.
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