Shipyard Drama - Advice Appreciated

[Stabi]

Boat yard labor rate:
$125/hour
$150 if you watch
$175 if you help

The $25 difference between the hour rate and the "if you watch" rate will save you way more than $25, just sayin

 

[Comodave]

Ok, well I will add an incident that happened to me. In July of 21 we were buying our current boat. I called Cummins to schedule a mechanic to do the engine survey on the 6CTAs. I specifically told them I wanted oil samples and a photo tach to verify that the engines turned up to the recommended RPMs. They quoted around $1,500. Ok. So time for the sea trial the mechanic shows up. I ask him to make sure he has a photo tach, reply is no. Why not? He shrugs. Then he says the oil sample should not be done since the oil is too new. I ask for them anyway and he says no that the oil is too new. So we run the boat about 30 minutes and in total he spends about 10 minutes in the engine room and half that time he spent adjusting the idle RPMs. He never lifted or ask to lift the large cockpit hatch, he just went in through the small access hatch. So he couldn’t even see the outsides of the engines. Time goes by and I never get a bill. Until now, 22 months later. They bill me $1,500+ for the sea trial including oil samples. I never got any report and I just assumed that since the mechanic didn’t do a real engine survey they weren’t going to bill me. I called Cummins and eventually spoke to the area general manager. Sent him an email from the person that crewed during the supposed engine survey confirming what I was telling him. He did some checking and wrote back that they were tearing up the bill and that they were going to change how the engine surveys would be done going forward.

So it does help sometimes to complain to whoever is in charge.

 

[Portage_Bay]

As a Washington State based boater thank you for posting this! This may explain why yards don't want to give written estimates. My personal horror story was a job with a verbal estimate of 50 hrs that ended up at 216 hrs. In future I will always require a written estimate before agreeing to the work. Of course they claimed I was never given the verbal estimate. To add insult to injury it still didn't work when I left the yard and I had to spend quite a bit my time and effort to get things up and running.

Dave, RCW (Revised Code of Washington) 46.71.025, (whole reg attached) paragraph 2 states:

(2) The repair facility may not charge the customer more than one hundred ten percent, exclusive of retail sales tax, of the total shown on the written price estimate. Neither of these limitations apply if, before providing additional parts or labor the repair facility obtains either the oral or written authorization of the customer, or the customer's designee, to exceed the written price estimate. The repair facility or its representative shall note on the estimate the date and time of obtaining an oral authorization, the additional parts and labor required, the estimated cost of the additional parts and labor, or where collision repair is involved, aftermarket body parts or nonoriginal equipment manufacturer body parts, if applicable, the name or identification number of the employee who obtains the authorization, and the name and telephone number of the person authorizing the additional costs.

The difficulty is that you have already paid, and left the yard. You should have confronted the management with the estimate, referring to the RCW, and their own estimate which stated that you would be contacted if the estimate charge was exceeded, but that's water under the bridge at this point. (see below)

The only "additional work" they accomplished was to poor attempt to repair the damage their inexperienced workers inflicted on your boat. Not only should the yard have PROPERLY repaired the damage they did, but they should NOT have charged you ANY of the costs of the damage repair.

Just further info. The boat in question only had VERY light soft growth on it when it was hauled out. Easily removed either by pressure washing, or a soft brush and a hose. Yes, I have firsthand knowledge of this.

At this point, I would request an appointment with the yard manager, take in your original estimate, the final repair bill, and a copy of the RCW. I would let them know that you would like a refund of anything over 110% of the estimate, per RCW 46.71.025. Inform them that if you do not receive the requested refund, you will be opening a case with the Washington State Office of the Attorney General. They have been VERY responsive to issues I've had in the past.

https://www.atg.wa.gov/file-complaint

Believe me, no business wants to defend their actions to the State Office of the Attorney General, and in this case, their actions are not defensible anyway.

On the damage to the hull due to their negligence in sanding through the bottom paint, the barrier coat, the gelcoat and into the glass substrate, that would require a qualified marine surveyor to access the damage, and a reputable yard to provide an estimate on the proper repair, that that is a separate (although related) issue.

Best of luck in whatever you decide.

Note: RCW 46.71.025 deal with motor vehicles, which also includes motorized watercraft.

Add-on: If anyone wants the REST of the story, PM Dave and ask him what the yards recommended fix was for the incorrectly sized (large) shaft zinc(s) they were attempting to put on . . .

 

[Micki]

Thank You Trawler Forum

Thank you sincerely for your replies.

My quest for an acceptable resolution lead me through what's easily one of the oddest retail experiences ever, for me at least... I'll post a follow-up when all the dust settles (apologies for teasing, just don't want to shoot myself in the foot at this point).

In the mean time; in reply to Shrew's assumption; I've attached both the initial boatyard estimate and the final invoice. Interesting read.

 

[Finnegus]

It seems like they state that they will contact you for approval if the cost exceeds estimate. If they did not or made no attempt to, it seems kinda like they are in breach.

 

[Californian38]

Same thing here. Just use Social Media. Let everyone know to stay away. They charge for everything, sand paper and many othe little things that ad up. The bigger the boat the worse the abuse.

 

[Bmarler]

interesting that they charge for consumables as well as shop supplies. what would be the distinction?

 

[Comodave]

interesting that they charge for consumables as well as shop supplies. what would be the distinction?

On the bill from Cummins I referred to above in post #32, they billed $104 for shop supplies. The job was on the boat and not in the shop. He did not use anything except a phillips screwdriver, absolutely no supplies. I asked how they could bill over $100 for supplies when they used none. Crickets…

 

[tiltrider1]

After reviewing the estimate, the final bill and additional information provided. I can see we’re the conflict is.

Micki makes the statement that an incompetent laborer damaged the boat that required additional work which the yard charged him for.

If the laborer was incompetent then we have a true case of damages. If the laborer was not incompetent and did not cause the damage then one can say that the additional charges were warranted.

If Miicki is factually correct I would file a claim with my insurance company for the cost of repairing the damages. After all, you have all the paper work to substantiate the costs. All you need are some photo’s of the damage. Even with out the photo’s your insurance company calling is going to get the yards attention.

 

[Sweet marie]

I had a similar experience. The yard gave me a quote to do the bottom paint on my last boat. When I got the bill I was shocked that it was 30% higher than the quote. The extra came from all the consumables. He even charged me for dust masks. I would expect that these would be part of his costs and would be accounted for in the original quote, but I guess not.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Tell your friends, post reviews, then move on.

Yep

 

[PM]

That is an outrageous story. First off is the price for a simple paint application. But worse than that is the price hike. I think I would have lawyered up right away and see if they would change their tune. Or you could pay with a credit card and then decline the payment, it is dirty pool but they started the dirty play.

pete

 

[grandbanksbayfield]

What were the hours?

If it was not a fixed bid, the hours they worked on the job would tell you something. If a yard bills out at 100 per hours, 30 hours of prep and painting is not really that much. Do it yourself sometime.

 

[Micki]

grandbanksbayfield - I've done it myself plenty of times. And consider this; it's a job they do literally day in day out. Variables, sure. Just get me close (the boatyard owner's last wildly cryptic statement went like this; "The original bill that we discounted was actually for $5500". - Omg, more than double over the original estimate?!?

GH Boatyard wasn't the cheapest estimate, far from it. They were on the high end of the middle range of local yards. I choose them because the office staff was super-polite and it's located less than 5 minutes from my house.

But what bothered me the most wasn't the dollars. The boatyard's ethics stunk.

 

[Barrie]

I hate "shop supplies". Its a money grab. Should be cost of doing business. The automotive guys tried this back in the 80's and dropped it due to complains.
What is shop supplies: rags, WD-40, paint brush, roller, tray, varsol, painters coveralls, tape, sand paper, toilet paper. The list can be very creative.
Just saying.

 

[mvweebles]

I hate "shop supplies". Its a money grab. Should be cost of doing business. The automotive guys tried this back in the 80's and dropped it due to complains.
What is shop supplies: rags, WD-40, paint brush, roller, tray, varsol, painters coveralls, tape, sand paper, toilet paper. The list can be very creative.
Just saying.

How would you propose a yard recover costs for the above? Raise their hourly rates and bury them? Itemize everything, which could easily require adding a staffer just to track inventory? For example, a simple bottom job consumes an incredible amount of direct consumables such as sandpaper, painting supplies, ventillation equipment, Tyvek suits, and solvents.

I agree that indirect consumables such as compressors, hoses, inventory, TravelLift, etc. should be cost of doing business. But direct consumables for a job? Has to be a balance between administrative overhead (e.g. having someone track every piece of sandpaper) and too much 'peanut-butter-spread of costs' in the hourly rates. Might be an example of 'shop supplies' being worst idea.......except for everything else.

Peter

 

[Tranquillity III]

Barber Marina in Josephine, Alabama

It cost me $1200 to re-learn a few important lessons about Marina/Boatyards here....

1) Take detailed photos of the boat when they pull it/before you leave the yard.
2) Document work orders/quotes in writing.
3) Physically check on the work in progress frequently.

I took my boat here to have the bottom painted, was quoted a fair price on the phone by Hannah and set the date/time for haul out. Arrived at prescribed time, they were ready and waiting....all good so far.

Hauled boat and after quick inspection (mistake #1 - should have taken photos), was quoted $40/ft for compound/wax hull sides (mistake #2 - should have had price and work request in writing).

They indicated the boat "might" be ready in 4 days....no problem, I'm not in a hurry...but they do charge a yard fee for every day, so shorter is certainly better. No word from anybody, so on day 4 (Friday) I call just before noon to check on progress. Hannah says "let me check and call you back". (Mistake #3 - should have gone out for physical progress checks)

About 1:30, I get a call back from Hannah and yard manager Dale. They sent some photos of hull damage sent by text. They've cut away a 4"x12" piece of fiberglass and tell me it was damaged when I brought the boat to them....hmmm. I ask why was I not called when this was discovered...and before someone started cutting on it? Their reply was "It wasn't noticed until after it was pressure washed, and the guy who noticed doesn't speak good English". Never mind the pressure washing commenced when the boat was still wet and in the slings on day 1.....this is now day 4. I wonder, did the guy cutting away the fiberglass also have communication issues???

I go out to see the damage first thing Monday (they're closed on the weekend). Since the fiberglass is cut away, so is the evidence of what might have happened.... Dale insisted they did not cause the damage. No sense arguing, they hold all the cards at this point so I agreed to pay for repair.

Tuesday afternoon, boat is ready and I go pay the bill. Surprise again....hull compounding is now $45/foot (vs. $40 quoted)...seems quotes are variable here. Hannah says they can adjust price if they want to.

Anyway, the work looks decent (time will tell), but overall experience left a sour taste. Not even a "thanks for your business" after a $7000 bill. Don't be fooled by this place. Most positive reviews are about the setting...it's in the middle of nowhere and has a bunch of weird dinosaur statues, ornate statues, and a giant lady in the water. Great place for a drive by with the kids (if you are looking for something to do in Josephine, Alabama) but nothing special about the boatyard or Marina.

 

[PMF1984]

Many years ago, when the EPA was first requiring the end of untreated discharges, a Wasque 32 pulled into the marina I was running. They were repeat customers and knew I worked in a boatyard in the off season.

I was asked if I thought $2,500 was too much to have paid for a new head.

I asked if they were happy with the work, they said yes.

I pointed out that there were four scenarios for this:
1. The cost was less than they thought it would be and they were unhappy with the work
2. The cost was less than they thought it would be and the were happy with the work.
3. The cost was more than they thought it would be and they unhappy with the work.
4. The cost was more than they thought it would be and they were happy with the work.

Then I pointed out that #2 is an illusion created by yacht brokers when they sell you a boat, and in reality never happens.

So no, since they were happy with the work, I didn’t think $2,500 was too much.

 

[JP2]

I might know the yard you are referring to and if so, have had the same experience for years while doing business there. Always the same. What you described, including the no notice, seems to be their widely known reputation. I believe their success at it results from most people just paying the additional charges and moving on. One time it helped when I sat down with them prior to the work and doing a line by line quote with all the specifics we could think of. That had a better result. Later on, I just switched to a less convenient yard and saved an average of $1700 per bottom job for a 50' boat.
If they quote me pricing higher than local competition and I choose them to do the work anyway, I don't mind paying their invoice. What I can't stand are the exceptional surprises, and that is what they are known for. It may be that they just are not skilled at preparing reasonably accurate quotes. The lesson is to never go by the published price sheet they put out from their office.

 

[jbinbi]

Supply and demand. Currently too many boats, not enough yards. Sellers market for the yard.

Same as auto dealers and selling over msrp.

I almost hope for a small recession to rebalance. Sellers should have to compete for your business. When we have that condition then it drives up quality.

Right now yard doesn’t care if you come back, they have a waiting list of customers.

 

[Comodave]

I hate "shop supplies". Its a money grab. Should be cost of doing business. The automotive guys tried this back in the 80's and dropped it due to complains.
What is shop supplies: rags, WD-40, paint brush, roller, tray, varsol, painters coveralls, tape, sand paper, toilet paper. The list can be very creative.
Just saying.

If they actually use shop supplies then I am ok with the charge. But in my experience noted above they used absolutely no supplies and then billed me $104 for shop supplies. The only thing he used was a phillips screwdriver . That is just wrong.

 

[O C Diver]

Boat yard labor rate:
$125/hour
$150 if you watch
$175 if you help

I use to have a labor rate such as above for rebuilding scuba regulators:

Labor Rates:

$40 per hour
$60 per hour if you watch
$80 per hour if you help
$120 per hour if you worked on it first.....you didn't did you?

Ted

 

[SteveK]

In my line of work I ask for an estimate for budgeting, then I ask for quotes before awarding the job. I am surprised many here rely on an estimate as if it were a final price.

Is a quote what you pay?
A quote is more than an estimate. A quote is issued after you or a representative of your company has visited the site or spoken with the customer regarding their project needs. It includes accurate pricing for materials, plus labor costs, taxes and applicable discounts.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I positively hate hearing stories like this, and they are all too common. Others have shared this view, too many customers and not enough staff often generates this attitude, if you are dissatisfied, step aside, there's another customer to take your place. Absolutely abominable and I'm afraid the solution in the past has been the advent of a recession, at which point you can often bargain for lower quotes, to which they adhere.

Was the estimate in writing?

As an industry professional it's truly embarrassing that we could be this unprofessional and inept, and intransigent when confronted. I'm sorry you had to endure this. I'm curious, what did the manager say when confronted? Did you consider going to his supervisor or the owner of the yard?

It's too late for this case of course, but for future interaction with the industry, this may be helpful https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/cracking-the-code-part-i/

In Taiwan inspecting builds at four yards.

 

[Portage_Bay]

SteveK asks a very good question. Steve DAntonio has written an excellent article on how it should go. With a career of operating and managing work boats including major yard work behind me and now in retirement managing my personal boat I find it mind boggling how recreational boaters are treated by yards when compared to how professionals are treated in "real" boat yards. When I compare the amount of work and quality of the work done for the money in the two scenarios there is no excuse for how little value we recreational boat owners get out of the yards we do business with.

Steve DAntonio writes about avoiding T&M as much as possible, getting quotes, understanding the entire process of scheduling, billing, profit margin, communication and handling changes. YES! Do it that way. If you can. I say good luck trying to get a yard to work that way. As he and others say it's all too often something along the lines of "It's a boat, we can never know what it's going to take." As he says, that's total BS. An experienced yard with a good staff should have a solid idea of what's involved.

There are as always two sides to every story.

As a boat owner if you want good accurate quotes you must do your home work. Define the scope of work as carefully as possible including technical specifications. It's OK to use the yard to help you with this. They may know more about it than you do. If it's a big job and beyond your skills and knowledge expect to pay for an expert's time to write the specs. Without this you can't really expect the yard to give an accurate quote and you will have no idea how to evaluate that quote. "Paint the bottom" is not a job specification.

With your entire project well thought out go into the yard with the expectation that you won't add much if any additional work. Avoid the temptation to say "As long as that is open we may as well do xxxx". Your entire scope of work should have already been well defined.

In addition to firm quotes have in place a method to handle the inevitable surprises. It is as we all know a boat, there will be surprises. How will the surprises be handled? An additional or modified quote? T&M? How will that affect the schedule? How will you be notified of the surprises? All of this should be in writing before the project starts.

On a big project ask for regular updates on costs and % completed. That is the best way for you to track the entire project's progress. I ask for weekly updates but unless I press the management I never get them. These updates are so important in so many ways. Two simple easy to understand examples. Labor listed to move and re-install the water heater. That was never part of the project, it was not in the way. It was the result of a miscommunication between the lead and the laborer. And labor listed for work done so poorly that it had to be re-done. In both cases I had to fight pretty hard to get those charges off the bill.

Understand that casual estimates will often be lowball just to get your interest. Understand that accurate quotes will be much higher. The yard now has to realistically assess the entire project.

Expect to be on site frequently. Minimum once a week. More is better. I strive for daily. I try to find yards that will allow me to do some projects on the boat as long as my projects do not impact the yard crew's work in any way. After a while the crew starts to accept me as one of their own and I have heard some interesting things.

"We just get the boats in here even though we won't start for weeks or months. That way they don't go anywhere else."
"We don't give estimates, someone else will just under estimate us and get the work."
"Up sell, up sell, up sell. That's what the boss tells us."
"I like working here. Working for the rich f*&kers is where the money's at."
I could give more examples but you get the idea.

Does working to a well written set of specifications, firm quotes and a change order process mean the entire project will be completed for the costs both sides agree to at the outset? Hell no it doesn't. It does mean that you will have a much better idea of costs, changes and outcome. It does mean that you will have some ground to stand on at the end if you are not happy with the work or costs. You won't be simply stomping your feet and pounding your fist on the manager's desk.

Does it mean the yard will behave themselves? Act professionally every step of the way? Again, hell no. It does mean you have some ground to stand on. I could give some examples of 'real' yards with questionable practices but this is already long enough.

Understand that even with solid quotes the entire project is very likely to cost more than quoted. Sometimes much more for good reason. Steve DAntonio gives the example of drilling into the deck to mount a mast and finding a water logged balsa core. Oops. Now we're into big bucks.

With my experience I understand how to manage a project. The challenge as a recreational boat owner is finding a yard that will work to the way I want it to work. When I ask for estimates let alone quotes and want to discuss schedules it's like talking to a brick wall. As has been said by others it's a supply and demand problem. The demand of recreational boats needing work is huge, the supply of yards good or bad to do the work is small. For my current round of work I was 8 months out getting the work lined up. 2 months to find a yard to commit then 6 months waiting to get in. They still didn't start on time. For now yards are in the driver's seat and we just have to watch them like hawks every step of the way. I'm already on the search for next winter's work list.

In my line of work I ask for an estimate for budgeting, then I ask for quotes before awarding the job. I am surprised many here rely on an estimate as if it were a final price.

Is a quote what you pay?
A quote is more than an estimate. A quote is issued after you or a representative of your company has visited the site or spoken with the customer regarding their project needs. It includes accurate pricing for materials, plus labor costs, taxes and applicable discounts.

I positively hate hearing stories like this, and they are all too common. Others have shared this view, too many customers and not enough staff often generates this attitude, if you are dissatisfied, step aside, there's another customer to take your place. Absolutely abominable and I'm afraid the solution in the past has been the advent of a recession, at which point you can often bargain for lower quotes, to which they adhere.

Was the estimate in writing?

As an industry professional it's truly embarrassing that we could be this unprofessional and inept, and intransigent when confronted. I'm sorry you had to endure this. I'm curious, what did the manager say when confronted? Did you consider going to his supervisor or the owner of the yard?

It's too late for this case of course, but for future interaction with the industry, this may be helpful https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/cracking-the-code-part-i/

In Taiwan inspecting builds at four yards.

 

[DDW]

The problem with boat work is that both a quote and T&M have some serious drawbacks. For a yard to stay in business and honor quotes, they are necessarily high, because the work is often difficult to estimate accurately (even for a bottom job sometimes). So you quote to cover the contingencies. If you find that the job is greatly exceeding the quoted labor time, there is heavy incentive to begin cutting corners to keep from losing money.

With T&M, there is little incentive to closely supervise the work or be efficient at it.

I am happier with T&M if I know the yard and know they won't be wasting time. The way to know the yard is to be there a lot. In known yards I have spent less on T&M because I know what they are really going to run into and don't have to pad my quote to cover those contingencies.

In this case if you read the written estimate that was supplied, it does have a bunch of caveats about it being only an estimate and anything might happen. But it also CLEARLY states, that if it is going over the estimate by more than 10% the owner WILL be contacted for approval. The yard is at fault here - pretty much no way out of that.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Pros and cons to both T&M and quoting. The latter cannot be undertaken lightly, the infrastructure required to quote accurately is considerable, but once you know how to do it, it's hard to go back, not unless, as a manager or owner of a yard, you like haggling over every bill. My customers could be unhappy with a quote, but they could never be angry with me about it, and never demand I lower it.

I've helped a few yards to see the quoting light, but granted they are too few. Most are simply happy to plod on "safely" using T&M, making less money, having disgruntled customers, and being rewarded for inefficiency. More on the subject here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Quoting-PartingShot127_02.pdf

In Taiwan

 

[slowgoesit]

Gig Harbor Marina and Boatyard

In this case if you read the written estimate that was supplied, it does have a bunch of caveats about it being only an estimate and anything might happen. But it also CLEARLY states, that if it is going over the estimate by more than 10% the owner WILL be contacted for approval. The yard is at fault here - pretty much no way out of that.

Yep, not only did they violate their own policies as stated on the estimate, but per RCW 46.71.025, as posted previously, they appear to be clearly in violation of Washington State Law as well.

And now the school yard bully, Oops, I mean the representative of the boat yard is pissed as hell that Dave called him out on their violation of THEIR OWN WRITTEN POLICY!, acting like a sulky 12 year old called in to the principal's office . . .

Guess they should post ME on their blacklist as well, as I will never inconvenience them with my boat . . . ever . . .

Note: We had considered Gig Harbor Marina and Boatyard, but we were waiting to see how Dave's haul-out went. I can safely say we crossed them off our list, and are now scheduled to haul out at Port Townsend Boatyard.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I remember as a child my dad often saying. "There are three sides to every story, your side, the other guy's side and the truth". With that in mind, regardless of what actually transpired, if you are being made to feel the villain because you have pointed out the yard violated its own policies, that's simply shameful. The honorable thing to do, when it's been pointed out to you that you have screwed up, is to come clean, own up to it and try to find a workable solution, you will be elevated in the eyes of most customers when you do this. I gave away bottom paint jobs on many occasions to smooth customers' ruffled feathers.

The state legal aspect of an estimate is also something few yards take into account, until they are called on it, I mention that as well in the article.

Sadly, few in business, marine and otherwise, truly know how to admit fault and make it right. It isn't something you are born knowing, most have to be taught, either by their parents, the military, a mentor or an employer. I had to learn this technique from an employer.

While we are on the subject of industry bad behavior, another of my pet peeves is when marine industry "professionals" say to customers, "You know I'm losing money on this job". I lost money on many quoted jobs (about 15% of them), and the customer was never the wiser, admitting you are losing money makes you look inept in any event. On very very rare occasions I went to a customer to request an amendment to a quote because we encountered something that could not have been reasonably anticipated, in almost every case they willingly agreed to the upcharge. Also, if you quote a job, keep the exclusions to a minimum, if you have too many it isn't really a quote or it's a job that shouldn't be quoted.

Some have noted that it's hard to find yards to provide quotes and stick to them. I readily admit that, but if as boat owners you don't pressure yards to do this, they'll have no reason to do so. The well-kept secret is, if they do embrace quoting, and do it right, they will be more profitable, they will have better customer relationships, and their scheduling will be more accurate, as scheduling requires accurate allocations for the time required to complete a job. That's built into a quote.

You have struck a chord with me in this story, these are so very bad for the industry.

On the subject of apologizing properly...

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/parting_shot_im_sorry.pdf

In Taiwan inspecting new builds.

 

[mvweebles]

I remember as a child my dad often saying. "There are three sides to every story, your side, the other guy's side and the truth". With that in mind, regardless of what actually transpired, if you are being made to feel the villain because you have pointed out the yard violated its own policies, that's simply shameful. The honorable thing to do, when it's been pointed out to you that you have screwed up, is to come clean, own up to it and try to find a workable solution, you will be elevated in the eyes of most customers when you do this. I gave away bottom paint jobs on many occasions to smooth customers' ruffled feathers.

The state legal aspect of an estimate is also something few yards take into account, until they are called on it, I mention that as well in the article.

Sadly, few in business, marine and otherwise, truly know how to admit fault and make it right. It isn't something you are born knowing, most have to be taught, either by their parents, the military, a mentor or an employer. I had to learn this technique from an employer.

While we are on the subject of industry bad behavior, another of my pet peeves is when marine industry "professionals" say to customers, "You know I'm losing money on this job". I lost money on many quoted jobs (about 15% of them), and the customer was never the wiser, admitting you are losing money makes you look inept in any event. On very very rare occasions I went to a customer to request an amendment to a quote because we encountered something that could not have been reasonably anticipated, in almost every case they willingly agreed to the upcharge. Also, if you quote a job, keep the exclusions to a minimum, if you have too many it isn't really a quote or it's a job that shouldn't be quoted.

Some have noted that it's hard to find yards to provide quotes and stick to them. I readily admit that, but if as boat owners you don't pressure yards to do this, they'll have no reason to do so. The well-kept secret is, if they do embrace quoting, and do it right, they will be more profitable, they will have better customer relationships, and their scheduling will be more accurate, as scheduling requires accurate allocations for the time required to complete a job. That's built into a quote.

You have struck a chord with me in this story, these are so very bad for the industry.

On the subject of apologizing properly...

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/parting_shot_im_sorry.pdf

In Taiwan inspecting new builds.

Re: "Losing money on this job." I hear this in Corporate America too. Usually means the vendor had to reduce their margin, not that they're losing money. But it highlights an interesting sub-issue: providers of bespoke services (vs fungible products) want each and every job to be profitable. In my opinion, this inability to view their business as a portfolio vs a series of data points has opened the door to mega-retailers (eg Big Box Stores). Consider Starbucks and their policy of discarding a batch of brewed coffee after 30-minutes. It's key to their quality and consistency. Years ago, I avoided SBUX in favor of small coffee shops. But I got tired of burned-out stale coffee - the temptation of a small biz owner to keep the coffee until consumed is too great to resist. Much different product, but it also explains why Amazon Web Services (AWS) and Microsoft/Azure have been wildly successful - they take a platform view of their business vs the Outsourcing companies like IBM and HP who viewed (note past-tense) each customer server as a mini-profit center.

I'm trying to get a boat lift built. Has been horribly delayed due to permitting issues (it's on the ICW which means the Florida Dept of Environmental Protection is involved). I have a signed contract with a dock builder to whom I gave a 15% deposit. Unfortunately, the owner had a serious stroke and sold the company to an out-of-area dock builder who wants an "Easy Button" to expand their business by buying an existing and well-respected marine contractor. The new Owner was surprised when my contract surfaced, especially with the 15% deposit. I was willing to make a small increase in pricing (6%) but the new owner is adament - he has zero responsibility to a pre-existing contract even though the business is still operating. My guess is this will not go well for them - they wrote the contract so interpretation will be skewed against them. Additionally, while they have a state of Florida contractor's license, the new guys are using the county license of the previous guy who is ill and out of the picture.

How much are we talking? He needs to reduce by about 10% to meet my 6% increase. He's unwilling to reduce a dime. A few thousand bucks. That's how badly he wants to make sure every job is profitable.

Steve D - good article. Reminds me of the 56-months I spent as a Solution Architect at ATT, as lethargic and buracracy-laden company as every existed. I had a mentor who used to cut through the corporate BS and rationalizing by simply saying "Okay, what's the right thing to do here?" Amazing how a simple sentence can really focus on solution.

Peter