Recreational Boating & the Green Movement

[BandB]

Global warming? Sure. Man made? not so sure.

Wifey B: What about man manageable?

 

[Benthic2]

Similar to the 5 stages of grief that everyone is familiar with...I think there are 5 stages of climate change acceptance:

1. Its not happening
2. Its happening but its not a problem
3. Its a problem but its not my fault
4. Its a problem and I can choose to make a difference
5. Its a big problem and everyone must make a difference

I think everyone will go through these stages at different speeds. I think everyone will be at stage 5 in 20 years.

 

[TWedd]

Wifey B: What about man manageable?

If we knew what causes global warming, maybe we could manage it....maybe. what was causing it during the end of the ice age? I don't know, doubt we can do much to reverse the natural global warming that has been happening since then. Maybe we could manage to make it sunnier in the winter? I think the odds are the same. Manage clean air and water-for sure, dont know of much hard evidence that it will help global warming. Lots of theories accepted as science, until the theories are proven wrong and new theories come along.

 

[TWedd]

I am a HVAC tech for 38 years. In those years I have seen the following theories with huge impact on my industry and a tremendous cost to the end user.
First: The hole in ozone layer. theory was it was caused by refrigerants used in refrigeration and aerosol cans. Result: Ban all the old refrigerants and come up with new refrigerants with a lower "ozone depletion factor. Tax the refrigerants at the point of manufacture at several hundred percent. prices sky rocketed to the end user. We also had to start capturing the refrigerant instead of releasing it into the atmosphere-good for me, instant 30% increase in sales without a penny of advertising or sales expense!

Next: Turns out the hole in the ozone opens and closes all the time. It has done that ever since they discovered the ozone layer. Oops, turns out that ozone depletion is not a concern. Sorry but the horse has left the barn enjoy your new, less efficient over taxed refrigerant while you can because, wait for it......

Green house gas. this is the next theory. Same drill, new refrigerant. Turns out that the old banned refrigerants have less green house gas affect, but too late.

This continues on. Sorry if I don't blindly accept the latest theory. Not with their track record.

Again I believe in clean air and water, just not that we are the cause of global warming.

 

[FWT]

For the most part, yes. But power generation tends to be more efficient at large scale and also easier to control emissions from. So burning a lot of fuel in 1 place to make a bunch of power is still likely to be an improvement over burning it in thousands of smaller engines (especially when many of those engines are often not operating at peak efficiency due to the varied operating conditions they see).

Yeah, true, but its also true there is "friction" in the system as power is lost to resistance and so forth in the transmission, conversion to AC, etc.

Relative efficiency even after that? Don't know. Have not seen those stats.

 

[FWT]

On 1/27/2006 Al Gore said, literally, the world would end by 1/27/2016 if the world didn't follow his plan.

Its five years after the world's expiration date.

At what point does one say he was simply wrong?

 

[FWT]

Since we are talking about Green, here's a tidbit that just crossed my desk on the investments front about the poster child of Green: Tesla

Headline:

Edmunds: "Every Single Tesla We've Tested Has Failed To Hit Its EPA Range Estimate"

"In a note to clients on Wednesday, analyst Gordon Johnson said "it’s almost as if [Tesla] is an abject deception machine, which is now coming to the forefront".

"He continued, comparing the company to Theranos: "We’ve been highlighting this for years, and there’s websites dedicated to this. Remember, [Elizabeth] Holmes at Theranos was supposed to be a 'great innovator'. She lied about the capabilities of her blood machines."

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/e...-tested-has-failed-hit-its-epa-range-estimate

 

[Art]

On 1/27/2006 Al Gore said, literally, the world would end by 1/27/2016 if the world didn't follow his plan.

Its five years after the world's expiration date.

At what point does one say he was simply wrong?

Drastically incorrect date... is how I'd put it. I reviewed Gore's input back then. Can you provide to what statement from Gore you paraphrase... or is that a quote? If a quote; please let us know from whence it is derived.

The world will likely/virtually never "end"... for a couple billion years anyway - LOL.

However, livability for humans and thousands of other life forms could become considerably jeopardized [many extinct] in future decades/centuries if we as the dominant, thinking energies on Earth don't correctly abate anthropogenic disturbances that are leaning against the Natural-Rules of our planet.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Pretty much everything we do has an adverse affect on the planet. Old Mother Nature can handle a certain amount of it, but we are asking too much of her. We all need to cut back on some of our more harmful actions.

Our current throwaway society simply is not sustainable. I don't know how anyone can deny this.

Dilution is the solution to pollution. It WAS
Now it isn’t. There are TOO MANY PEOPLE.
If we had the number of people that we had in 1950 we may be fine.
But we have way more than that ... too many.

“harmful actions” like creating too many people.

 

[BandB]

Since we are talking about Green, here's a tidbit that just crossed my desk on the investments front about the poster child of Green: Tesla

Headline:

Edmunds: "Every Single Tesla We've Tested Has Failed To Hit Its EPA Range Estimate"

"In a note to clients on Wednesday, analyst Gordon Johnson said "it’s almost as if [Tesla] is an abject deception machine, which is now coming to the forefront".

"He continued, comparing the company to Theranos: "We’ve been highlighting this for years, and there’s websites dedicated to this. Remember, [Elizabeth] Holmes at Theranos was supposed to be a 'great innovator'. She lied about the capabilities of her blood machines."

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/e...-tested-has-failed-hit-its-epa-range-estimate

We share a distrust of Elon Musk which is why we cancelled our order for a Founders Roadster.

 

[FWT]

Drastically incorrect date... is how I'd put it. I reviewed Gore's input back then. Can you provide to what statement from Gore you paraphrase... or is that a quote? If a quote; please let us know from whence it is derived.

The world will likely/virtually never "end"... for a couple billion years anyway - LOL.

However, livability for humans and thousands of other life forms could become considerably jeopardized [many extinct] in future decades/centuries if we as the dominant, thinking energies on Earth don't correctly abate anthropogenic disturbances that are leaning against the Natural-Rules of our planet.

Sure.

Lots of stuff out there.

This is the first one I snagged that lists a number of specific predictions that are not close to having come true. There are other items of course. Cataloging that stuff is a minor cottege industry. I don't spend a moment thinking about that myself.

https://dailycaller.com/2016/05/03/...al-gores-film-is-still-alarmingly-inaccurate/

 

[FWT]

Dilution is the solution to pollution. It WAS
Now it isn’t. There are TOO MANY PEOPLE.
If we had the number of people that we had in 1950 we may be fine.
But we have way more than that ... too many.

“harmful actions” like creating too many people.

That argument of too many people dates to 1798. Malthus. Its an idea that won't die.

Billions of extra people later, somehow we seem to manage. Being wrong for 200 years isn't enough to kill a theory people just WANT to like.

It was ridiculed even then. Remember Jonathon Swift's famous satire (Modest Proposal) that said the solution was we should eat babies, and recommended mint jelly with the dish?

Since folks seem to like sources, here's the first one that popped up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Robert_Malthus

 

[FWT]

We share a distrust of Elon Musk which is why we cancelled our order for a Founders Roadster.

Good call.

 

[AZ2Loop]

Similar to the 5 stages of grief that everyone is familiar with...I think there are 5 stages of climate change acceptance:

1. Its not happening
2. Its happening but its not a problem
3. Its a problem but its not my fault
4. Its a problem and I can choose to make a difference
5. Its a big problem and everyone must make a difference

I think everyone will go through these stages at different speeds. I think everyone will be at stage 5 in 20 years.

It could also be that these are the only 5 stages you have made it through. There are other stages. As you said, people work through them at different speeds. Don't give up. You'll get to more stages.

 

[AusCan]

That argument of too many people dates to 1798. Malthus. Its an idea that won't die.

Billions of extra people later, somehow we seem to manage. Being wrong for 200 years isn't enough to kill a theory people just WANT to like.

Are you saying that man's effect on the planet is sustainable because we've seemed to manage for a couple hundred years. That is a drop in the ocean on the planets timeline.

 

[AZ2Loop]

On 1/27/2006 Al Gore said, literally, the world would end by 1/27/2016 if the world didn't follow his plan.

Its five years after the world's expiration date.

At what point does one say he was simply wrong?

I can only answer for myself, but probably about 1/27/2006. I suspect you saw right through him, too.

Was it not obvious? Even he never believed that for a second. Was his motive not clear to anyone who actually paid attention? Like most of his ilk, he was pandering to a very easily duped crowd of those who let emotion trump logic and those hell bent on virtue signaling. It is a massive population from which to extract money, if one is morally corrupt enough to do so. He is. The crowd is bigger than ever today.



The only thing I admire about AG is his capitalistic tendencies (and I really do mean that as a compliment -- it is the only one I will give him). He saw a market, and met it. He saw a massive group of people that wanted so badly to be fooled, he then hyped up their desires, and then proceeded to extract hundreds of millions of dollars out of the very leftists who praise him. Immoral or not, one must tip a cap to his business acumen in doing so. One does not build a $350,000,000 net worth on the salary of a Senator and a VP, even with the free government housing in which he hung his hat for decades. He uses those so easily fooled to line his pockets. He does it well enough, you have to admire it just a little, though it is despicable. From him, though, I expect nothing less.

 

[bligh]

 

[Codger2]

As a child I learned that the Great Lakes were formed by glaciers. I saw the glacial grooves. I believe in global warming, Ive seen the proof with my own eyes!
I'm not sure when the glaciers melted, but I don't think human activity, or fossil fuel use had much to do with the global warming that melted the glaciers.

I support clean air and clean water. I just cant make the leap that our activity over the last 100 years has caused this sudden global warming crisis.

Global warming? Sure. Man made? not so sure.

I agree with TW's post completely! Sure we have global warming...it's been cyclical for millions of years! I just can't buy that it is man caused.

 

[FWT]

Are you saying that man's effect on the planet is sustainable because we've seemed to manage for a couple hundred years. That is a drop in the ocean on the planets timeline.

Yeah, well Malthus was like Al Gore, and predicted the end was close at hand. Like Al Gore he was wrong.

This thinking was so well known, pay attention the next time you watch Dicken's "Christmas Carol" where Scrooge keeps saying the poor just need to die to "decrease the surplus population."

Sticking with theories that are just wrong is just being stubborn. And that's a pretty expensive reaction to things.

 

[Art]

Thank you bligh!

Many will not open their brains to understand this and tens of thousand other items simultaneously assaulting/ruining Earth's natural configurations.

 

[BruceK]

Thank you bligh!

Many will not open their brains to understand this and tens of thousand other items simultaneously assaulting/ruining Earth's natural configurations.

Now let`s wait for someone to say rubbish contaminating the river is just a natural event completely unconnected with man`s use and abuse of the planet.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I’m not even going to begin arguing that GW is’t caused buy people.

Al Gore was not wrong. See the picture in the next post.
But it takes time (more than Al thought) for these things to happen.

Walt, “millions of years” ... yes a long time. But these things happen slowly so we should start doing things ... because we can and we know it makes things better. During the time “green” things have been in place (since at least the 60’s) .. what if we hadn’t done any of it? Where would we be now? Would our rivers be filled w garbage? But relax. It won’t happen on our watch.

 

[markpierce]

Dilution is the solution to pollution. It WAS
Now it isn’t. There are TOO MANY PEOPLE.
If we had the number of people that we had in 1950 we may be fine.
But we have way more than that ... too many.

“harmful actions” like creating too many people.

The increase of US (and European?) population during the last several decades has been due to immigration. Thus, the rest of the world is responsible for population growth.

 

[markpierce]

I agree with TW's post completely! Sure we have global warming...it's been cyclical for millions of years! I just can't buy that it is man caused.

I'm thankful the earth has warmed since the ending of the ice age thousands of years ago.. Before global warming there were no San Francisco bays, and food was less plentiful.

My boat's diesel engine only consumes long-dead vegetation, not dinosaurs.

More CO2 is good for plants which generate more 02.

 

[ksanders]

Guess you dont go out to dinner much.
Does she eat meat and or fish?

Nope, not much dining out.

Yes fish, we catch plenty all organic.

Yes meat, all organic and grass fed with the beef.

 

[Nomad Willy]

The increase of US (and European?) population during the last several decades has been due to immigration. Thus, the rest of the world is responsible for population growth.

Then we’re doing something right .. except for the immigration. And we don’t need more people despite what some say. Too many and of course I mean of the world. The polluters afar are almost as bad for our ecology as we are. The air and water knows nothing about borders.

 

[magna 6882]

Interesting reading everyone's thoughts. Thread sort of took a left turn but thats ok when folks are just talking .Perhaps the goverment should join the forum and have civil polite expression of thoughts and views.Maybe not since they would remove us.
The thing that gets me is our attempt to change the planet as a country when were a minority in polluting this planet. We dont litter,are respectful of our waters an forest. Our daily lives have became a new normal. I then see you tube videos of county's destroying there water ways and there environment which end up being our environment. Cutting ships on a tar filled beach is not the best example of doing it right and in there culture thats just what you do.
Even without the global warming argument countrys need to make some changes.There crap floats over hear.

 

[FF]

"a number of specific predictions that are not close to having come true"

WHAT?

You mean Peak Oil wont happen and the cans buried in my yard wont be worth their weight in Gold or 223 ammunition?

 

[AZ2Loop]

.....Al Gore was not wrong....

....it takes time (more than Al thought) for these things to happen.....

Said another way, "Al Gore was not wrong, but Al Gore was wrong."
That is essentially what you said. Al Gore put dates on it which cannot be ignored in an effort to make him right. He was wrong. Putting dates in his statements was a tactic to pander to the easily duped. He never believed what he was saying, but he knew he could build a net worth of hundreds of millions of dollars by giving the left the misinformation they wanted. It was well done, and building his fortune is about the only thing Al has ever done that is worth respecting.

That video and thousands of others like it should make a person wonder why some societies have so little respect for our planet. They (in that video's case, "they" would be Indonesians) have the knowledge and the resources to behave more responsibly. They may lack the will to do so, and fortunately that can change. To say otherwise is unfair and demeaning to them. To expect less of them is judging them unfairly, treating them as if they are not capable of decency. They are....and they need to step up.

The soft bigotry of low expectations is the worst thing one society or group of humans can do to another, and the left does it all the time. We should expect better, and help them do better, because they can. Instead, we have a group of people that put emotion above logic that tend to hate our own society and despise/blame our own people, which is both destructive and stupid. Again, it's all emotion over logic, and that very dangerous way of thinking is taking over our country. Al Gore saw it, and took full economic advantage of it. He is not alone in doing so.

This isn't even a difficult problem, and we do not have too many people. We have too many people that do not give a $%!&. Just as we can continue to do better, so can they. We should expect more.

 

[Hippocampus]

Once again respectfully ask that posters actually read the Intergovernmental Commission on climate change reports. The science is overwhelming. Like any branch of science climatology continues to evolve. Many of the statements made above are simply untrue. Although there’s much to learn much has been learned. The cyclical nature of glaciation and ice ages has been in very large measure explained. Impact of sunspots and other variables is in large measure understood. All these sub stories and further understanding of previously not considered variables expend our understanding but do not change the compelling evidence supporting man made climate change.
Any science is ultimately judged by whether it’s adequately predictive. One must distinguish weather from climate. If one does so then current (and past) computor models based on the assumption of the presence of man made climate change definitely meet that challenge.
One must not let perfect stand in the way of good. Any incremental change you can make is good. The all or nothing argument is ridiculous on its face. You don’t make that argument or behave that way in so many aspects of your life. You don’t stop eating completely if you’re overweight. Your last pick up was 8mpg. You examine do you really need a pick up or SUV. Even if so you consider getting the one with the best mpg that meets your needs.