No Maintenance Logs

[Daniel B]

In the process of finding and buying a trawler and looked yesterday at a 1985 KK42 with a Ford-Lehman engine with over 4,000 hours. There are no maintenance records or logs at all. This is concerning, particularly with respect to the engine and drive system but for other systems as well.

The broker said an oil analysis will reveal everything we need to know about the condition of the engine. I'm skeptical.

Is this a fatal flaw? What could a mechanic do to assess the engine, other than an oil analysis, that could give us some comfort the engine is sound?

Should we be prepared to overhaul or replace then engine -- hope for the best and plan for the worst -- and make our offer reflect that contingency?

I think the boat is worthy of further consideration otherwise.

Grateful for any thoughts or experience that can be shared.

 

[CaptTom]

Brokers love to discard things like maintenance records. I imagine it's just one more place for buyers to find something to complain about. Or the previous owner might not have given them to the broker.

Having good records is great, but if you like the boat and the oil analysis comes back good, that's more important.

 

[rslifkin]

Not knowing the history just means I would plan on a more detailed engine survey to assess the current condition. Generally, if everything looks good, checks out healthy, there are signs of wear items being kept up with, etc. then it has likely been maintained well enough.

 

[BroadCove]

I think the "why" could matter. If there are no records because it's being sold by an estate, that's understandable. If there is an active/recent owner and no records, that would be different.

Regardless, you could see the lack of records as a "feature": you're not going to be swayed by records of questionable provenance. Even if invoices were provided, unless you know the quality of the service provider's work, the records may not be that useful. Yes, I'd want to have them myself, but not having them doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the mechanical state of the engine.

A reputable mechanical surveyor will do a lot more than simply pull oil for an analysis. I don't have experience with this engine / service intervals, but I would factor the cost of a "major service" into my purchase decision / offer.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. D. Welcome aboard. While maintenance logs ARE somewhat important, as Mr. r. notes (his post #3), general appearances can give you some idea of any maintenance regime IMO. Are the bilge areas clean and odor free? Is the engine clean? Have there been any attempts at a "rattle-can rebuild" evidenced by over spray and corrosion in less accessible parts of the engine? Is the wiring, in general, neat and tidy? Are there any spares (filters, clamps, hoses, fluids etc.)? Are the batteries and clean and well secured?

SOME people will spend $$ to keep the living areas pretty while neglecting the mechanical bits and pieces. MY benchmark is a clean tidy ER space IS a sign that some effort has been made to keep things ship-shape.

Oil analysis us pretty well useless IF there has been a recent oil change.

Care to share the listing or at least a picture of the ER spaces?

 

[Mac2]

A visual inspection of the engine should give you a good idea of maintenance. Is the engine clean, hoses in good condition, belt dust etc. Are there after market alarms on the engine? My previous boat, 1985 Krogen Manatee, only had the basic engine alarms. If someone takes care of an engine, they would typically want alarms added to protect the engine. Is there a fuel polisher and/or oil polisher? Another indicator someone takes care of their engine.
One other thing to look for on the 42 Krogen-the upper deck in the center of the boat where the pilot house meets the upper deck. Remove the headliner in the saloon to check this area for fiberglass damage-something that was told to me by a Krogen broker. Maybe another Krogen owner can chime in here on their experience.

 

[tiltrider1]

I have never bought a boat that came with maintenance logs. I have never been asked by a buyer to see my maintenance logs.

When I sell my current boat I will probably make the maintenance logs available to show how many systems have been upgraded and to show that one need not fear the higher engine hour meter. In other words I will use the maintenance logs to justify a higher price for the boat.

Now if I was buying an ocean crossing vessel I probably would want maintenance logs. So, are you buying a KK42 for coastal cruising or Ocean crossing?

 

[Daniel B]

Greetings,
Mr. D. Welcome aboard. While maintenance logs ARE somewhat important, as Mr. r. notes (his post #3), general appearances can give you some idea of any maintenance regime IMO. Are the bilge areas clean and odor free? Is the engine clean? Have there been any attempts at a "rattle-can rebuild" evidenced by over spray and corrosion in less accessible parts of the engine? Is the wiring, in general, neat and tidy? Are there any spares (filters, clamps, hoses, fluids etc.)? Are the batteries and clean and well secured?

SOME people will spend $$ to keep the living areas pretty while neglecting the mechanical bits and pieces. MY benchmark is a clean tidy ER space IS a sign that some effort has been made to keep things ship-shape.

Oil analysis us pretty well useless IF there has been a recent oil change.

Care to share the listing or at least a picture of the ER spaces?

Thanks RT. Here is a photo of the ER:

Pretty clean and tidy. Interesting though, the living areas look good but the other storage lockers on the boat and the lazarette are not very ship shape. So, something of a mixed bag.

 

[Dutchman]

In the process of finding and buying a trawler and looked yesterday at a 1985 KK42 with a Ford-Lehman engine with over 4,000 hours. There are no maintenance records or logs at all. This is concerning, particularly with respect to the engine and drive system but for other systems as well.

The broker said an oil analysis will reveal everything we need to know about the condition of the engine. I'm skeptical.

Is this a fatal flaw? What could a mechanic do to assess the engine, other than an oil analysis, that could give us some comfort the engine is sound?

Should we be prepared to overhaul or replace then engine -- hope for the best and plan for the worst -- and make our offer reflect that contingency?

I think the boat is worthy of further consideration otherwise.

Grateful for any thoughts or experience that can be shared.

Hello Daniel.
I got into the Trawler business about four years ago. Bought a 1980 CHB 35, with a 120 Lehman. It had about 5000 hours on it when we got it and I put almost 1000 hours on it Cruising, Pacific Northwest and British Columbia. I’ve really grown to love that motor. This motor has quite a history in the boating business, and a reputation of reliability. My engine oil, cooler and transmission cooler or causing the water temperature to run hot. I use Barnacle Buster to clean them out and it’s running smooth ever sense. When I first got it, it used some oil about a half a quart a day with eight hour cruising, but that has gone away with more frequent use of the engine. 1 quart now between oil changes. Incredible fuel mileage I have run it at about 1.8 to 2 gallons an hour, which gives me about 6 to 7 mph. I too did not have too much history on the motor but it has proven itself over time. A year ago we were in British Columbia, over five hours from any town, and the freshwater/coolant water pump bearing failed. The pulley and shaft, with time, actually fell out of the housing, spilling the coolant into the bilge. Not all the coolant came out of the engine, but it was not circulating for sure. I cut back to a very low power setting and cruised for five hours to Port McNeil, British Columbia, and yet the engine temperature stayed right at 180°.Thanks to star link, I was able to get a replacement pump out of Delta BC shipped to Port McNeil in less than a day for 60 bucks took me less than an hour and a half to install the part. I was pretty amazed that the engine did not overheat. I have heard that they can go on easy 10,000 hours. I haven’t talk to anyone that has done that but may be someone on the forum has some experience with that.

Good luck. Dutchman.

 

[Daniel B]

Brokers love to discard things like maintenance records. I imagine it's just one more place for buyers to find something to complain about. Or the previous owner might not have given them to the broker.

Having good records is great, but if you like the boat and the oil analysis comes back good, that's more important.

Thanks Capt. Tom. I appreciate your perspective.

 

[Daniel B]

Hello Daniel.
I got into the Trawler business about four years ago. Bought a 1980 CHB 35, with a 120 Lehman. It had about 5000 hours on it when we got it and I put almost 1000 hours on it Cruising, Pacific Northwest and British Columbia. I’ve really grown to love that motor. This motor has quite a history in the boating business, and a reputation of reliability. My engine oil, cooler and transmission cooler or causing the water temperature to run hot. I use Barnacle Buster to clean them out and it’s running smooth ever sense. When I first got it, it used some oil about a half a quart a day with eight hour cruising, but that has gone away with more frequent use of the engine. 1 quart now between oil changes. Incredible fuel mileage I have run it at about 1.8 to 2 gallons an hour, which gives me about 6 to 7 mph. I too did not have too much history on the motor but it has proven itself over time. A year ago we were in British Columbia, over five hours from any town, and the freshwater/coolant water pump bearing failed. The pulley and shaft, with time, actually fell out of the housing, spilling the coolant into the bilge. Not all the coolant came out of the engine, but it was not circulating for sure. I cut back to a very low power setting and cruised for five hours to Port McNeil, British Columbia, and yet the engine temperature stayed right at 180°.Thanks to star link, I was able to get a replacement pump out of Delta BC shipped to Port McNeil in less than a day for 60 bucks took me less than an hour and a half to install the part. I was pretty amazed that the engine did not overheat. I have heard that they can go on easy 10,000 hours. I haven’t talk to anyone that has done that but may be someone on the forum has some experience with that.

Good luck. Dutchman.

Thanks Dutchman. That's quite a story losing the water pump. Glad you made it to Pt McNeil. Especially with a single engine and thinking about cruising to AK, I've been thinking about the spare parts I would carry on board, a water pump being one of them. Curious what other spare parts folks would suggest.

 

[Daniel B]

I have never bought a boat that came with maintenance logs. I have never been asked by a buyer to see my maintenance logs.

When I sell my current boat I will probably make the maintenance logs available to show how many systems have been upgraded and to show that one need not fear the higher engine hour meter. In other words I will use the maintenance logs to justify a higher price for the boat.

Now if I was buying an ocean crossing vessel I probably would want maintenance logs. So, are you buying a KK42 for coastal cruising or Ocean crossing?

Thanks for your response. The boat does have a fuel polishing system. We're just thinking about coastal cruising -- but as far as Alaska and Mexico, so reliability and confidence is the engine is important to us.

 

[Daniel B]

A visual inspection of the engine should give you a good idea of maintenance. Is the engine clean, hoses in good condition, belt dust etc. Are there after market alarms on the engine? My previous boat, 1985 Krogen Manatee, only had the basic engine alarms. If someone takes care of an engine, they would typically want alarms added to protect the engine. Is there a fuel polisher and/or oil polisher? Another indicator someone takes care of their engine.
One other thing to look for on the 42 Krogen-the upper deck in the center of the boat where the pilot house meets the upper deck. Remove the headliner in the saloon to check this area for fiberglass damage-something that was told to me by a Krogen broker. Maybe another Krogen owner can chime in here on their experience.

Thanks for the tip about possible problems where the pilot house meets the deck. We will check into that.

 

[Daniel B]

Not knowing the history just means I would plan on a more detailed engine survey to assess the current condition. Generally, if everything looks good, checks out healthy, there are signs of wear items being kept up with, etc. then it has likely been maintained well enough.

An engine survey sounds like a good idea to me. Thanks.