Life rafts?

[guy with a boat]

Hippo, sounds like you are leaning towards the valise raft, but consider that a mounted canister has some benefits, including that weight limitations are much less important. You also don’t have to remember which cabinet its in and if stuff got stored on top of it.
Our canister is built into the upper deck railing. It is out of the way, easy to find, and easily launched if needed. There is a retaining cord that can be manually released, or cut in a hurry. Then a push on the canister and its overboard. Easy enough (compared to alternatives) for anyone with only basic instructions. As TT said, they inflate when the painter is pulled.
The canisters are made for this, and there shouldn’t be any issues with moisture entry etc if mounted correctly (quality brand, drain holes down). We have had our last two boats setup this way and prefer it for many reasons over the alternatives.
Up to you, but it does somewhat mitigate the weight limitations when choosing a raft. We have gone with Viking in recent years btw.
The only downside that I can see is that the cost of buying or fabricating the mount is probably higher than the cost of the valise.

 

[mvweebles]

... Have moved on from his initial recommendations for survival storms to JSD thinking and a totally passive approach. Still, much wisdom there.

Going back to storm tactics there’s a sea anchor on the new to me one.

There was a good thread several months ago where topic of sea anchor came up. I had never considered one but someone mentioned using it to keep boat positioned during engine repairs. As a guy who has worked on engines 50-miles offshore, made a lot of sense. Would not need a large chute or anything. Also, along the west coast, the prevailing winds from the NW make the entire coast a lee-shore. A sea-anchor would buy time - a really good thing in anyone's book. For me, compactness is the biggest factor, though haven't looked into it yet.

I haven't read Coles' book in 25 years, but I always remember he describing the build-up to heavy weather as the crew morphs from joking, hubris and excitement to solemnity to terror/will-writing.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Thanks Peter you confirm my initial decision is the one I’ll go with. As usual you post the real deal poop.
On a power boat see the sense of a sea anchor for the reasons you mention but not as a survival technique. Preference still lies with the jsd

 

[twistedtree]

Had the experience of putting on a Gumby and think your right TT. At my age and state of fitness once in a Gumby doubt I could get into a raft by myself. I cruise with my wife so having some ability to help myself is important. Given there’s 3 Gumbys we’ll keep them but wear the mustangs and try to save the boat as the first priority. Think as long as the water isn’t frigid they will be enough. Of course the abandon ship protocol is best practiced two ways. Stepping off the mother ship directly into a raft and with a brief period of time in the water in between.
Question remains what to do for a raft? Plastismo offers one that’s half the cost of the Winslow we used in the past. Want to keep the weight <50lbs and the less is better. Viking makes good products but even their coastal is too heavy.
What would you choose?

I agree that the importance of a Gumby suit it totally dependent on the water temp. We are frequently in 40F temps where it's essential. And seldom in temps above 60F where it can extend your immersion time almost indefinitely. But if I cruised in typically 70F or above water I'd be much less worried about a Gumby suit. Probably wouldn't even have them.


I've had Vikings on this and the last boat. To me, a canister in a good location nullifies any concern over weight. And when you get to a 6-person raft, I think there is just no escaping weight. As I recall the Viking valise was 100 lbs or more, and I figured we had way less chance of getting that deployed vs a canister in a fixed location.


If you can work with a 4-person raft then I think a valise could meet your criteria if you feel a valise will work best on your boat.


As for brands, this summary stuck with me:


Switlick is a company focused on parachutes as their primary business with a side in rafts. Very well made, but VERY heavy.


Winslow is a company focused on aircraft rafts. Good quality, but a major goal is light weight.


Viking is all about marine rafts. Top quality, commensurate weight.


For me, I wanted build quality that wasn't overly constrained by weight. And I wanted a company that lives and breaths marine rafts.


As for getting into a raft while wearing a gumby suit, it's a eye opener. I highly recommend STCW basic safety for anyone who will be doing anything beyond harbor cruising. Among other things, you will get into a gumby suit, jump in the water, demonstrate that you can swim a minimal distance (easy once you figure out that the back stroke is all that works), jump from a boat into a raft, right a flipped raft, get into the raft from the water, and practice aiding other people to get into the raft, all while wearing the suit. It's in a pool, not a raging ocean, but gives you a much better appreciation for all that is involved


I really like pneeld's technique of pull on the Gumby suit, but tie the arms around your waste so you still have some mobility up until you need to go into the water. But keep in mind that walking is hard too because you essentially a wearing giant clown shoes.

 

[psneeld]

I interpreted it as "if you're thinking of getting into the raft in conditions where the raft may get flipped, things are likely moving around too much to just step in from the boat"

Thanks, yours makes it easier to understand.

No one for one minute should think that USCG rescue in coastal, populated areas is only hours away. Quick response depends on so many factors. The worse the conditions, the longer it may be.

And just because you aren't in coastal, populated areas....the USCG has vessels with and without helos in all kinds of places. They also coordinate other resources to assist.

 

[mvweebles]

No one for one minute should think that USCG rescue in coastal, populated areas is only hours away. Quick response depends on so many factors. The worse the conditions, the longer it may be.

Agreed. My point in saying "hours vs days" is to contrast the needs of a coastal life raft vs offshore that are designed to sustain life for days. In the old EPIRB 121.5 days where location was very inexact, a grid search could take days - longer than the batteries would last. Contact and rescue statistics are vastly improved.

In 2020, SARSAT shows 82 rescue events in US waters but doesn't differentiate between vessel extraction vs life raft, air lift vs vessel transfer. Guessing vast majority are bodily injury or medical condition, likely to commercial fishermen and ships' crew given the amount of time they spend on the water.

Without citation, the BoatUS article states the most common events that require abandoning ship into a liferaft are electrical fire, and sinking due to striking an object such as a partially submerged container, not heavy weather. Over the years, there have been a few major storms that have caught a large number of sailors and resulted in death (Sydney/Hobart, Queens Birthday Storm come to mind). Some of the deaths were from boats with life rafts that deployed but victim either couldn't get in or were ejected. Point being that trying to protect against a heavy weather event (vs mechanical event) has a mixed track record.

In the end, you have decide your risk appetite and how far you're willing to go to mitigate the next level of risk. If you're coastal cruising in general vicinity of US rescue assets, do you really need a fully offshore capable liferaft, especially since deployment of such may be more difficult than a coastal version? It's not like the responders (USCG) are going to take their sweet time if they know you're in an offshore vs coastal raft.

Personally, the most important thing I've learned here is to insist a raft is vacuum bagged for longevity. Maybe they all are now.

Finally, liferafts can be rented for about $400/mo. Given the difficulty and expense of having one repacked, definitely an attractive option.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Actually, both the new and old EPIRBS are homed in on once the SAR units are in the general vicinity (if they have that capability).

The biggest problem with the old EPIRBs was false alarms because any 121.5 (aircraft emergency frequency) transmission could trigger an alert.

Sure, having exact GPS coordinates helps as it may take out the homing process but the trick is to just have and use a properly functioning EPIRB/PLB.

Plus, not sure they are gonna make decisions based on life raft type...once abandoning ship, once abandoning ship, you are nearly at the top of the priority list anyhow.

 

[Simi 60]

Thanks, yours makes it easier to understand.

No one for one minute should think that USCG rescue in coastal, populated areas is only hours away. Quick response depends on so many factors. The worse the conditions, the longer it may be.

And just because you aren't in coastal, populated areas....the USCG has vessels with and without helos in all kinds of places. They also coordinate other resources to assist.

Yeah, but all kinds of places is a very small part of the world, and I don't have an issue with that, just pointing it out.


I was in Vanuatu several years ago, spent several months there after delivering an interisland trader and was trying to decide if I wanted to bring a boat of my own across to service the tourist industry as I had an in, but that's another story.

One night at one of the Nakamal's in Port Vila we got a call that there was a vessel in distress about 3 hours out and for some reason we , a couple of Kava infused and Tusker soaked guys and a crew of Ni-Vans ended up going out in a carvel hulled, roll like a pig vessel in 30+ knots on a rescue mission.

Seems in some parts of the world there is no CG, scary as it seems, the most capable and responsible people/vessel on the day is it.

After several hours never found anyone or thing
Not even 100% sure there was anything or one to be found
Things are a bit rubbery in those parts

 

[psneeld]

In the big scheme of things, the USCG doesn't have that many resources around the world ( even though it is in the world's 12th largest Naval force) .

But at any given time, there is one or more ships in all the wotlds 7 oceans of the world. The least visited I think is the Indian.

The USCG and US military often does long range rescues with aircraft that deploy rafts and survival gear, and I have heard of parachuting rescue crew to a vessel where the skipper had a medical issue and they saved his life and sailed the boat like 1000 miles to a south sea island.

But the vast majority of at sea rescues out of reach of land based SAR, are by commercial ships coordinated by major SAR agencies.

Again, the most critical part is signaling distress and if 2 way comms is possible, so much the better.

 

[mvweebles]

Again, the most critical part is signaling distress and if 2 way comms is possible, so much the better.

Chuck Hawley is one of the industry experts on recreational marine safety gear. During his tenure with West Marine, he led efforts on several safety-related fronts, including development of Lifesling and anchor testing. He has an amazing sailing resume from small-boat sailing (including recent El Toro experience) up through the 125-foot PlayStation catamaran that set several speed records 20-years ago.

I've heard Hawley give similar advice proffered in this article several times. Pressed for three pieces of safety gear, handheld VHF is one (PLB with signaling mirror being another).

https://www.soundingsonline.com/news/talkin-boats-with-chuck-hawley

As another aside, he gives an interesting perspective on PFDs "You have to start with anything that prevents drowning, since drowning is the cause of death in 70 percent of boating fatalities. A comfortable Type III vest that you'll wear every time you're on the water or an inflatable vest is the answer. I know there are conditions where a Type III is "over its head," but most drownings happen surprisingly quickly, so you have to have a vest that you'll wear."

Thanks to Hipocampus for initiating this thread, and to those knowledgeable and experienced people like Psneeld who have weighed in. I've enjoyed the more cruising-aspect of this discussion.

Peter

 

[Portage_Bay]

Have any of you guys had real life experiences getting into a raft from the water?
Not the easiest of thing when I was fit and 20

I've done it in numerous training exercises. In both warm pools and cold choppy water. I used to be the guy who levered himself into the raft unassisted so I could help the rest of the crew board the raft. Then in my early 60s during yet another training exercise I found I could not get into the raft on my own. I'm was not overweight and still very active but my upper body strength and flexiblity had dimished enough to make boarding the raft unassistend not possible. The lesson I take from that for an older curising couiple is to make every effort to not board the raft from the water. Which means deploying the raft early in the emergency. The worst case is that you didn't really need it and now have to pay for a servicing and repacking.

Another lesson I learned that day is I could no longer get into the gumby suit in the water unassisted. Same lesson applies. If you're going to carry gumby suits put them on early. If you need your hands free put it on as far as pulling it up to your waist and tie the arms in front of your waist.

For what it's worth that training session was in a heated indoor pool. The local training schools have ended the cold water bad weather training due to the possiblity of injuring the trainees.

One more thing. If you choose a life raft as part of your survival gear at the next service and repacking tell the service shop to call you when they will inflate for inspection and ask them to hold it until you can get there. It is very educational to look at your raft. Sit in it and eyes and hands on every aspect of it. Then imagine that same thing in cold driving rain and choppy seas. Even in darkness if you run at night.

 

[Hippocampus]

Thanks
Much of the conversation wasn’t relevant to the current concerns of a mom and pop in a coastal and occasionally near shore setting. But the offshore confirmed prior thinking. Links were helpful as well. Especially the practical sailor one. So thanks all. End of day our plan incorporating things we have already is:
Four PFDs- one Baltic, 2 mustang survival, one spinlock all with harnesses and umbilicals. Plus several watersport ones and the crappy orange ones. Plus float coats. Enough for more people then the boat will ever see.
Ships VHFs plus two handhelds
Life Sling
MOM 8
Ships epirb and three personal. Looking at combo AIS/gps but may wait for a sale.
Ditch bag- this was set up for passage. Its more than enough for coastal. Will go through it and replace what has timed out.
Boat comes with three Gumbys Have the Mustangs. Hope to never get wet but who knows.
The main new purchase will be a “Winslow 4 man coastal plus” vacuumed bagged so repack interval is 3 years and in a valise as it’s light enough for my wife to deploy.
Still, think if you’re real worried about going down deploy the raft. Also think fire and hull holing are the things to mitigate against. Weather isn’t a primary concern for our new style of cruising. So think you could step into the raft from the swim platform. Dinghy is on a freedom lift so easy to launch except for the restraining straps and putting in the transom plugs. Same with dinghies on davits and dinghies deployed with a hydraulic arm or crane. However, in all these cases think it would take considerable longer than deploying a raft. Rather spend the time trying to save the boat. Although I think any form of dinghy is problematic offshore/ocean in weather in a coastal setting I don’t think that’s the issue. Rather it’s time and ease to get into it. Also either of us can rapidly move the raft ready to deploy or deployed where fire and smoke isn’t. Personally I needed a swim ladder left deployed to get back into our dinghy when snorkeling. Occasionally could climb up the engine but if even a bit fatigued needed the ladder. Forget rafts even ribs can be hard to get into if you’re tired.

Once again the best course of action is to keep the boat afloat
Water out
Souls in

But that’s another discussion.
Thanks all

 

[RonR]

Thank you all, a good post. We carry a Viking 6 man mounted on the forward deck. Its big, its heavy.. We also tow a 13' rib that is well stocked with a spare hand held VHF, spare life vest, hand held light, first aid kit. I have never considered some of the other stuff mentioned. Gumby suits, EPIRB and so on. Something to consider as we progress farther and farther out.

 

[mvweebles]

Hippo - concerning Dinghy, what's your best thinking on securing it? I've always liked wire rope with turnbuckle from hull to padeye on deck. Reading in context of this thread, occurs to me that some sort of rope that could be quickly cut might make sense (Dyneema). Thoughts?

What type of price are you seeing on thr Winslow raft? Anything out there with a 5 year repack cycle?

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Chuck Hawley is one of the industry experts on recreational marine safety gear. During his tenure with West Marine, he led efforts on several safety-related fronts, including development of Lifesling and anchor testing. He has an amazing sailing resume from small-boat sailing (including recent El Toro experience) up through the 125-foot PlayStation catamaran that set several speed records 20-years ago.

I've heard Hawley give similar advice proffered in this article several times. Pressed for three pieces of safety gear, handheld VHF is one (PLB with signaling mirror being another).

https://www.soundingsonline.com/news/talkin-boats-with-chuck-hawley

As another aside, he gives an interesting perspective on PFDs "You have to start with anything that prevents drowning, since drowning is the cause of death in 70 percent of boating fatalities. A comfortable Type III vest that you'll wear every time you're on the water or an inflatable vest is the answer. I know there are conditions where a Type III is "over its head," but most drownings happen surprisingly quickly, so you have to have a vest that you'll wear."

Thanks to Hipocampus for initiating this thread, and to those knowledgeable and experienced people like Psneeld who have weighed in. I've enjoyed the more cruising-aspect of this discussion.

Peter

I used to know Chuck a good bit.

He got me teaching at the early Trawlerfests and convinced me to teach safety at sea seminars after we got to know each other when I spoke a couple times at the Annapolis Safety at Sea program when USCG helos from Cape May, NJ used to demonstrate hoisting and rescue swimmer deployments ( I think we had them then). I think one of his interests in me was hearing the other side of SAR rather than from famous yachtsmen and that my experience was from the tropics to the poles and survival training that goes along with it.

It is interesting many people's perception of SAR in general and about the USCG's capabilities and missions. Much is based on a couple cases they have been directly involved with or what they have seen on television. I am often amazed at how many cases are so complex each one would be book worthy, and the other extreme are the ones that fall into place so fast or done at just the one vessel or aircraft level. I guess in my career I had dozens of cases that happened while on other missions and just tripped across them. Like aircraft crashing right in front of our helo to looking for smugglers and flying over sinking boats.

But I am honest enough to know and admit I am a generalist on many of these topics and far from an expert on any particular one

 

[Hippocampus]

Just don’t like towing dinghies on many levels. It’s another thing to worry about both underway and in close quarters. Some tow better than others but imho none tow well. I know you’re supposed to tow at least 1 1/2 waves back or with the dinghy’s bow up on your stern but some how even in fairly flat water they surf and even with a bridle wander about. We’ve taken the engine off but with big engines that’s a PIA. We’ve left them on only to have water intrusion. Know people do it routinely but we’ve haven’t. On a sailboat of moderate size you can lose as much as a knot. Don’t know what it means to efficiency on power. Always thought it’s as much trouble to just hoist it as tow it so except in totally flat waters and very short distances up it goes. Big believer in floating painters so never tried dyneema. So I’m the wrong person to ask. Sorry have no opinion.

 

[psneeld]

Maybe because you think there is one or two right ways to tow a dingy that hampers your opinion of it. In coastal and Inland waters, watching the weather, towing a RIB is almost mindless.Unless you routinely boat in more than 15 knots of wind and 3 foot seas.

Like all boating endeavors, captain, weather tow boat and dingy have to be in sync and requires form a little to a lot of practice/experience.

Though I never did it in all but a handful of weather situations over a decade of up and down the ACIW from NJ to Florida, towing the right dingy would have been no problem.

Offshore where stopping or finding a spot to recover the dink in worsening conditions is a different world. Coastal cruising along the beach is no different if you are good at weather unless you make overnight passages.

Wireless cameras really make it simple.

 

[mvweebles]

..... Big believer in floating painters so never tried dyneema. So I’m the wrong person to ask. Sorry have no opinion.

I should have been more specific - was thinking of securing dingy to boat-deck. RIBs have a tow-eye on the bow, and need a pair of eyes on the backside of the transom. My preferred attachment is to take three short lenthes of wire rope with swaged clevis and turnbuckles so the dingy can be secured extremely well. However, in an emergency, a dyneema rope attachment could be quickly cut with a sailing knife.

I've towed a dingy a few times - floating line is a requirement (either that or a dive suit). As Psneeld states, there are times when it's workable. Really depends on circumstances. As a practice, should be an exception vs a rule. I think many see it the other way around, at least until they have a dingy or motor stolen. Or tried to anchor and backed-down on their dink which can be embarrassing - speaking from experience (Cane Garden Bay, BVI).

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I always have towed my 10 foot RIB from one stern cleat with a single line to the towing rings on the RIB ( for some reason the manufacturer says don't use the bow eye...though I might in heavier weather or useca second safety line there).

A small RIB is so light, worrying about a bridle to the trawler and its weight is a non issue as far as I am concerned.

But for me...towing is like anchoring... its a fair weather thing as I need no stress on the water after my life so far.

 

[rgano]

Just don’t like towing dinghies on many levels.

Amen, brother, AMEN! And then you make it light and easy to tow which makes it very simple for a zephyr from Ma nature to flip it over! Don't want to start out towing in "good" weather and then have to try to get the thing aboard in open, rolly water.

 

[twistedtree]

My insurance policy cuts the coverage on my dinghy significantly if it's towed. I think it's half the value. That says something about the success rate of such a practice.