How big is too big?

[jgtrucking]

I had originally completely written off the idea of buying a trawler big enough to liveaboard.

Not that I don't like the idea, I do, it's the kind of thing I have done all my life (with zero experience building my own place on an island, where winter access was limited, moving to Argentina, then Peru, then Colombia, spending 4 straight years travelling the world etc.)

My ONLY concern was feeling cramped, and I suppose the cost of a new boat or the maintenance on an old boat.

Now as I look around BC and see the crazy property prices, especially for the waterfront I really want, a liveaboard is starting to look more and more attractive.

Of course I would, like anyone, love to have a brand new Grand Banks 44 or a Kadey Krogen or something similar. Or one of the bigger tugs.

But I can't afford that. Or well, I could, but I'd have to go back to work to make sure I had money for fuel.

But a slightly used 42 footer is financially possible for me ($400k to max $600k) while still leaving me a nice retirement fund. I'm a former financial guy so I've done the numbers, very conservatively.

When I ran the idea past my very experienced sailor brother, he said 42 is too big for a guy like me. Alone and inexperienced.

He said I'd rarely leave the marina, as it would be too difficult for me to anchor and dock, even with the fantastic modern bow and stern thrusters.

He suggested 32 to 36 ft would be plenty. (He himself lived aboard a 26 foot sailboat for several years, in Canada, with ice and bubblers and no hot water on board)

I suspect he is right, he usually is. If I was struggling to manage the boat, I'd probably not take it out much.

Thoughts? Can a single person live comfortably on a 30 something foot boat?

The other benefit than easier handling I see is that I could probably afford a brand new 34 or 36 footer.

I'd be in the PNW. I am absolutely not a tropical climate person. I head South for some vacations, but I stay clear of beach resorts when I do. I would probably spend 3 months each winter off the boat, travelling.

Is 30 something too small? For me... yes. I have a 44', and it's just right. The layout will dictate your ability to single hand much more than the length.

 

[Patrick4002]

living aboard my experiance

every body hase different needs. we are a coupel that live aboard for the last 4 years, we started on our previous bout witch was a 39f power cruiser, who had a lot of space, but no place for a washer, small clothing space, but very nice to be on with the wife and cat.

the last 2 years we haven a trader 59f witch gives us room to walk i have now 2 bedrooms, 1 workroom and 1 storage room, a kitchen with washer over, large freezer/cooler,

for handeling i was a bit pff but the large boat is mutsh heavy and lay stable on the water even with wind. i have now room for a lot of solar power (24m2) and a good water maker.

In the marina elektricity and wather are expencive

my advice :
so take a good look make a list with need to have and nice to have items
bigger give you more space to live but has also more cost on mooring fee, heating, fuel comsuntion, maintenance

so its not a simpel dicision

sorry for the bad english
Best regards
Patrick

 

[polarwind]

Used to have an albin-25, after being out for a month my body was already aching a lot due to being slightly uncomfortable all the time, and we often stayed out for two months!

Bought a bavaria 40 cruiser (sailboat) in may and have lived on it since. The space for shower, two proper heads, large enough bed, two guest cabins with double beds (although, one is "storage room") and plenty of space to stretch out and vary how and where we sit definitely helps.

People (among them my parents who has a 39ft bavaria) said a 44ft would be huge and 50ft a monster and too big, 55ft unthinkable... But i'm now more certain than ever that we should get a 50-55ft boat next..

We enjoy being anchored in some random bay though. Bigger mostly just means more resources with us, more comfort for longer.

Handling (docking) usually gets easier with size. Sure, if we screwed up with the albin-25 we'd barely make a dent since it just weighed 1800kg (4000lbs) and we could sometime just stick an arm out and catch it if needed.. but i believe once you go just a little bit bigger you should stop putting arms and legs in the way if you want to keep them and then this 9000kg (20 000lbs) sailboat or an 18000kg one doesnt make much difference, either way you still need to dock calmly or you'll break something..

Bigger usually just means you can slow down more and dock slowly and in control instead..

I can usually pretty easily single-hand the sailboat (which has a 40hp engine, huge rudder and bowthruster), i doubt it would be much harder to align it with a dock if it was 10-15feet longer, or take much longer to move those extra few feet to get to the docklines..

One thing on my "want"-list is remote for bowthruster and stern anchor. Being in stockholm archipelago its relatively often that we anchor with bow to cliffs so remote control of the stern anchor windlass would help getting the boat tied up properly. And being able to use bowthruster to help when youre on the dock pulling on the lines in windy conditions would also help quite a bit..

 

[fletch]

I am OK single handing our 43, it does have easy lower helm access out, with bow and stern thrusters and twins. Like having someone on the dock to catch a line though

 

[LakeMJim]

Juggerknot: yes my brother is a hardcore sailor, and would be still living on that 26 footer if not for his decision to get married. He is still happily married as his wife lets him spend weekends crewing on other people's racing yachts.

So of course he is living a little vicariously through me and isn't really thinking about how I like a little luxury in my life. Not too much, but much more than he needs. And space is one of my biggest requirements. Like I don't want to feel cramped in the shower.

I spent a few days on my buddy's 27 ft sailboat here, and I thought it was very uncomfortable. I know for sure a sailboat is not for me. (I need shade, and comfortable seats).

So my thinking is slowly but surely evolving. And I need to get on some boats as soon as any are available.

 

[BandB]

so its not a simpel dicision

sorry for the bad english
Best regards
Patrick

Wifey B: You expressed yourself quite well. Plus you used vowels and didn't string together long words with very few.

Thankfully, the people we've encountered in The Netherlands and Scandinavia speak English to make up for our lack of proficiency in their languages.

 

[FatBear]

To the OP: there is a Kadey-Krogen 42 for sale in San Diego. I just cancelled my purchase a couple of hours ago for reasons that have nothing to do with the boat. It seems like an awesome boat. Far nicer and better quality than I ever imagined I could afford.

Unless you are an old man, you should be able to adapt to single handing it without too much problem. I found myself working through how I might do it and then realizing that I am too old and out of shape to follow my own plan. But I'm sure that I could eventually come up with a workable plan and if you are still young you probably have more options than I do.

It is likely that your insurance company will require you to get 20 hours of training under a licensed captain. That seems to be becoming more common for new boaters or people moving up more than 10-15 feet. You could take advantage of that time to build the expertise that you need.

That boat is here and needs to leave its slip because it's in a yacht club with non-transferable slips and a 14 year waiting list for slips of this size. You could do your 20 hours in sunny San Diego and then cruise home. You would arrive there happy, with a very nice and capable boat, and with a few hundred grand left to live on.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/kadey-krogen-42-trawler-3854402/

 

[Alaskaflyer]

That seems like a very.nice.Kadey.

 

[FatBear]

It is. And the broker took some really crappy photos. It is much better in person. We were not expecting much and so I viewed it alone. My wife had to go back and see it later after I described it. But we decided that we need a smaller boat.

 

[Art]

It is. And the broker took some really crappy photos. It is much better in person. We were not expecting much and so I viewed it alone. My wife had to go back and see it later after I described it. But we decided that we need a smaller boat.

Look into Tollycraft 34's, 37's and 40's.

 

[LakeMJim]

Thanks I'll take a look. I do like the Kadey Krogens. My backup plan for insurance is to maybe put my brother's name on it, and have him help me until I get up to speed. he's a licensed captain as he was considering a job as a charter boat captain.

 

[FatBear]

Thanks I'll take a look. I do like the Kadey Krogens. My backup plan for insurance is to maybe put my brother's name on it, and have him help me until I get up to speed. he's a licensed captain as he was considering a job as a charter boat captain.

If your insurance company works like mine, you would not need to put your brother on the title. Since he is licensed, you would only need to get your training from him. You fill out a form listing him and his license number and such and they add an endorsement saying you can only operate the boat under his instruction. After you have completed the required hours of instruction he fills out another form which you submit and then they remove the endorsement.

 

[OV_59FR]

"too big" can be read in three ways:
"it's too big to heat for a reasonable price"
"it's too big to fill with my personal stuff"
"it's too big to clean and take care of by myself/by my family".
If it's not too big according to even one of these factors, then, it isn't too big. Alternatively, some things aren't too big, but if you've only got one kid, for example, you maybe won't need something with 4 bedrooms, either. But if you have the money, time and will to take care of your boat, then, you can get one that's huge and could rival these houses in Greece or any villa you've found on the Internet, and it's not going to be "too big".

 

[JRO]

You can handle any 50 foot twin diesel by yourself without too much stress at all. The thrusters are nice but not necessary. Just do it! Anything over 50 will be much MUCH harder to find moorage, short term and long term. For living aboard… SIZE matters. Go big or hate going home.

 

[OldDan1943]

Just my opinion.....
I dont care what size buy, but realize, you will need a relief helmsman.
Putting the boat on auto pilot does not relieve you of the responsibility to be the look out too. Plus you need someone to smack you if start to nod off.

 

[Mako]

@JRO, 5 month old thread and I don't think anyone is reading it besides you, me and Dan

I'll throw my hat into the ring, even though the OP has decided to go small, maybe others might find this thread useful. So here goes...

1. Tolly's are great! Can't go wrong, except they're usually high-powered by "trawler" standards. I almost bought a 53 or 54 cockpit version with plans to repower, but I truly do not like twins so decided against it (converting to a single wouldn't have been worth the effort);
2. If you have to pay for dockage, whether sitting at your home port or while travelling far and wide, then smaller is better;
3. If you're a true bluewater cruiser or know that you'll be almost exclusively anchoring out, then bigger is better;
4. From a practical point of view, 50ft is the max upper size;
5. My 65 footer was fantastic out at sea or when anchored, but a nightmare trying to find dockage for, and most docks seemed to have only 30 amp service, not the 50 amp my boat required;
6. I think the true definition of "size" of a boat is its displacement at DWL. A 40 footer displacing 20,000lbs is nothing compared to another at 28k or a converted fishing boat at 40k lbs.

 

[OldDan1943]

Some folks go to 'dead man' timer .... If engaged and the helmsman does not reset it prior to a specific time, the boat goes idle, then to neutral and the helm goes hard over. Or perhaps other some other activity to put the boat and passengers in a safe condition.

Again, I am an opinionated old bastard so ....
a max OAL from my 34/36 to a low 40s.

 

[JRO]

@JRO, 5 month old thread and I don't think anyone is reading it besides you, me and Dan [/LIST]

It just popped up into my email box today and gave me a cheesy excuse to delay working on my floating beer drinking hideout.

Cheers!

 

[ksanders]

As a liveaboard I'm going to pipe in here.

Buy the biggest boat you can afford up to about 50'

Never has a liveaboard wished they had a smaller boat.

 

[LakeMJim]

I'm still here

I was talking to my insurance agent today, as I have asked for a quote on the Ranger 27, which I have decided to stay with, despite some last minute negotiations to move up to a 31.

I decided if I was going to move up, I'd really want to go to 36 to 40 feet, which I am sure is big enough for me.

I still don't plan to live aboard, as I have a nice rental apartment just 15 minutes from the marina in Victoria.

I'm feeling good about my decision because the insurance agency was grilling me on my experience with boats, the exact sizes and types.

I don't know what the costs will be yet, but I got the feeling if I was jumping up to a 38 or 42 footer from my usual 23 ft bowrider it'd be an issue, or expensive.

So I now have a slip the right size (32 ft), reasonable costs, and will be able to get some experience on the 27 footer for a year or two before I hopefully find a slightly used Helmsman 38 or similar, which would be all I ever need.

My thought is I might get lucky and be moving up in a market that finally slows down.

Looks like I will be on my own 80% of the time, and other times have 1 or at most 2 guests, all experienced boaters.

One last factor I will have to consider eventually is Canada's new luxury tax, which is now in effect, as I understand it, and as the dealer told me.

The 27 comes just under the limit, but anything more expensive (and new) would be subject to the new tax. What a PITA.

I wonder how the tax will affect the high end boat market here?

 

[Slowmo]

You've gotten a lot of input, too much for me to read. But a couple perhaps redundant comments.
1) As to handling a boat single handed I'm known people who've single handed a 50' boat (or so they claim) and I've known people that need help with a 25' boat. Lots has to do with your own familiarity with the boat and how easy it is to get from the pilot station, bow, and stern. If I were considering single handing I'd think about something that has really easy access from the pilot station to the bow and stern. A good example is the GB36/42.
2) Look into mooring. Rates (per foot) can increase above 40' or so. Beyond moorage maintenance costs of boats goes up non-linearly with length.
3) Look at specific boats since the available space is not just a function of length. Layout makes a big difference. Think about how you want to live on it. If you like a large master stateroom an aft cabin is a good solution. If you like a living area that flows onto a covered aft deck, a sedan (aka Euro) is a nice option. However in this latter case you have to accept having staterooms crammed into the bow.
4) Think about where you might want to cruise. The larger the boat the fewer places you can fit into. For example, buoys in Mark Bay at Nanaimo are limited to 40' in the bay.

 

[Simi 60]

You can handle any 50 foot twin diesel by yourself without too much stress at all. The thrusters are nice but not necessary. Just do it! Anything over 50 will be much MUCH harder to find moorage, short term and long term. For living aboard… SIZE matters. Go big or hate going home.

Our boat is our home.
Haven't been in a marina in 5+ years
We have a dirt house, hate going back to it, it's surrounded by dirt people and disease.

 

[Mako]

@Lake, the luxury tax destroyed the industry here in America years ago. The money it raised wasn’t even earmarked for anything remotely maritime or environmental - it went into the Country’s general fund.

The sooner it destroys Canada’s industry the sooner it gets repealed.

 

[FF]

Living aboard you will spend lots of time just sitting.

A really comfortable "zero clearance" recliner , or a splendid helm chair needs to be aboard.

Sitting on a slab of wood , even with 6 inches of foam stinks.

 

[OldDan1943]

LakemJim, call me 'old' but, I dont see 4 people (our age) being comfortable on a 27ft boat for more than a day/fishing trip.
How will everyone maintain the required social distance of 6ft. LOL
Soon the Canadians and the US will have the official "6ft police force," wandering around on the water checking up on folks. LOL
Too many times all govts. seem to make no sense at all.
I was in a doctor's office and was told, I had to remain 6ft apart from my 'roomie' even though I live with her on my boat and sleep with her in bed.

 

[BandB]

@Lake, the luxury tax destroyed the industry here in America years ago. The money it raised wasn’t even earmarked for anything remotely maritime or environmental - it went into the Country’s general fund.

The sooner it destroys Canada’s industry the sooner it gets repealed.

It won't take long to know it's impact. In the US, the impact was far greater than anticipated and than logical. Still it took 21 months to repeal it on boats. It remained on autos for 11 years. It did not really reduce sales of luxury autos, but on boats had a major impact. Boats haven't reacted to market increases in the same way. In fact, boat prices have risen more in the past two years and haven't been impacted at all. A person who is buying a $10 million boat, isn't typically discouraged by $1 million. Once again, proof that the science of economics may be overridden by the emotion.

So, we know how the US consumer reacted to the luxury tax on boats. We don't know yet how the Canadian consumer will react. We don't really know how the US consumer would in a different time.

One other factor that many believed doomed the US industry during the luxury tax period and a huge difference between the auto and boat industry. The auto industry largely just accepted it. Ferrari doesn't protest luxury taxes or fuel surcharges. Other luxury brands were relatively quiet. The boating industry was very vocal with the "Sky is Falling." There are some who contend that the industry was their own worst enemy and scared the buyers away.

I don't know what will happen in Canada. Too many factors at play. I fear it's also at a time when the market is ready for a decline anyway. Unfortunately, all the economic models in the world are just that, models. We never know until the real world situation plays out.

 

[JWellington]

Its a false comparison, small boat vs small RV. Its easier to handle a small rv because you can just leave it to walk around, drive to supermarket, bicycle around etc. Not so easy on boats.

 

[Jeff F]

The sooner it destroys Canada’s industry the sooner it gets repealed.

I don't think there's much of a manufacturing industry to destroy in Canada. Most of the boats affected are built outside Canada.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Its a false comparison, small boat vs small RV. Its easier to handle a small rv because you can just leave it to walk around, drive to supermarket, bicycle around etc. Not so easy on boats.

Also, marinas and RV parks or campgrounds don’t base their prices the same way. There’s exceptions of course, but often whether I have a 22’ camping trailer or a 50’ RV, I’m typically going to pay the same regardless, for the same level of amenities.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

For the short (blink of an eye) time the last KK Whaleback was on the market in North America a few short months ago I was struck with how so much living and working space existed which is normally seen on a boat 10 feet longer - and it is no “houseboat” - it’s a very capable vessel.