Engine replacement

[Geoffc]

Hi guys

I am
Currently looking at purchasing a 50foot trawler
Currently has a Gardner 200hp 8cly

To rebuild Gardner is over $70k, I can get new engine with more parts availability Cummings nta855 or a cat 3406
For less than rebuild
Looking for advice on what you guys would choose here
Looking at using for long passage extended stays up to Papua/indo
So if I require parts hopefully easy to get anywhere flown in
Appreciating your responses in advance
Cheers Geoff

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard.

 

[DavidM]

The two engines you are suggesting are rather old. How about one step up to a Cummins 6BT 210 hp. You can buy factory remans pretty cheap.

David

 

[Lepke]

Does the Gardner need overhaul now?
My guess is the Gardner will still be running when the newer engines are dead.
I would not install any engine that requires electronics of any kind if you want reliability.

 

[tiltrider1]

Gardner's are famous for their longevity and simple beauty. I think I would overhaul a Gardner before I replaced it with one of the mentioned engines.

Gardner's are very low RPM engines with tremendous torque. Exactly what you need for long life.

 

[BruceK]

Factor in changing an engine means other changes too,like mountings, exhaust system, drive shaft, electricals, etc. A serviceable Gardner is a positive selling point, provided it`s not worn out. They are no longer built but advertisements suggest parts are available. Think carefully about swapping it out.
The plus of the Cummins 210 mentioned above is no aftercooler to maintain.

 

[mvweebles]

I only recently laid eyes on my first Gardner. Also an 8-cylinder. In the 180hp range if I recall. It is an enormous chunk of iron. Makes my Perkins look svelte and anorexic. Swapping another engine would seem like a logistics nightmare. Heck. Getting the Gardner out would be a chore.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

I am
Currently looking at purchasing a 50foot trawler
Currently has a Gardner 200hp 8cly

To rebuild Gardner is over $70k, I can get new engine with more parts availability Cummings nta855 or a cat 3406
For less than rebuild
Looking for advice on what you guys would choose here
Looking at using for long passage extended stays up to Papua/indo
So if I require parts hopefully easy to get anywhere flown in

From reputation, I'd guess an old Gardner in a slow boat would be maybe more (or at least as) reliable than an old Cummins or Cat in that same boat.

Does the Gardner really need a full rebuild? Or is that just your thinking ahead, just in case? Or could it be it just wants new hoses and bolt-ons?

If it really needs a full rebuild, could the Gardner be rebuilt in place? Or would it require removal and eventual reinstallation?

Does your guess that a new engine could be less than the AUS70K rebuild estimate include new gear, shaft, props, struts, exhaust, etc?

Do you know for sure Gardner parts might be hard to come by? Really more difficult than for an old Cummins, for example?

-Chris

 

[mvweebles]

Chris - Gardner is definitely designed to be rebuilt in-situ. To my eye, the inline 8 cylinders/heads were configured into two banks of 4 cylinders each. I am not sure, but I'd guess the cylinders are sleeved.

If the engine is worn-out, I'd love to see the condition of the rest of the boat. Even with a standard diesel, engine doesn't die of old age. Something kills it.

Peter

 

[Circumnavigator]

Five or six years ago I bought a rebuilt 60hp 4 cyl Gardner from
Joe McCool
www.tangent-engineering.co.uk


Easy to do business with and has access to all the parts needed for rebuilds -- that's his business.


I would expect the Gardner to outlast any other engine. Replacing it would lower the value of the boat significantly.


Jim

 

[sean9c]

If the power requirements indicate that an 8 cyl Gardner if the right fit the wee Cummins B series will be seriously outmatched.
It's hard to figure how rebuilding what's there could be more expensive than replacing basically everything by the time it's all said and done. I'd do a lot more investigating on the condition of the Gardner and what's actually needed.

 

[rslifkin]

I agree that the 210hp Cummins B series isn't a replacement for a 200hp Gardner. The Gardner is likely continuous rated and can run WOT for days at a time, while the Cummins isn't meant for that duty cycle. Some of the bigger Cummins, Cat, etc. options would be perfectly suitable, however. Or you can over-size the engine a bit and accept a lower duty cycle rating, as the max continuous output will still be adequate.

 

[Slo-Mocean]

I would stick with the Gardner though I am unfamiliar with it , but from the description it sounds easily serviceable with the heads separated into 2 individual banks .


GARDNER DIESEL ENGINE – 8LXB
Gardner Diesel Engine – 8LXB
Engine Specification
Marine – 175bhp@1500rpm
Automotive – 240bhp@1850rpm

https://gardnermarine.com/engines/gardner-diesel-engine-8lxb/

What are the symptoms that leads you to believe it needs rebuilding , smoking or ticking or knocking ? Displacement and horsepower ? Age and how many hours?

I'll give you a little of my mechanical background with my inline 6 14liter Electronic injected and turbocharged Cummins that is based on the previous mechanical injected 855 big cam Cummins believed to be the most reliable otr diesel out there as your Gardner is in the marine world .

My over the road semi truck now has 1,275,000 miles on the original motor. At a average of 40mph when running under load the motor has 31,875 marine diesel hours on it with another roughly 5,000 hours of idling on it for a total of 36,875 hours.

At 975,000 I had the heads resurfaced and rebuilt with new seat and valves and springs because I was getting some oil smoke on start up that indicates worn valve guides .A couple thousand dollars in parts and my labor, very easy to remove and replace being they are 3 separate manageable heads comparable to your 2.

The heads have the fast moving parts and sealing surfaces that wear out long before the piston and bearings on the rods and crank .

In the trucker world we do whats called a bearing roll in at around 750thousand miles that simply involves dropping the oil,pan and loosening the piston rod and block main bearing caps one at a time and slowly roll out or push the 2 part bearing and roll or push in the new 2 part bearing . If you can get access to removing your oil pan with out lifting your engine this should be a fairly simple process done in a couple days at most.

If it needs new pistons or rods that is a little more involved but still pushing out the old piston and liner is not rocket science , I would much rather rebuild 3 wet liner low rpm diesels than I would 1 unlined gas motor .

 

[Slo-Mocean]

I agree that the 210hp Cummins B series isn't a replacement for a 200hp Gardner. The Gardner is likely continuous rated and can run WOT for days at a time, while the Cummins isn't meant for that duty cycle. Some of the bigger Cummins, Cat, etc. options would be perfectly suitable, however. Or you can over-size the engine a bit and accept a lower duty cycle rating, as the max continuous output will still be adequate.

Though there is no replacement for displacement in this 50' trawler he is mentioning my 16 foot wide 48000 lb 37 foot trawler is easily driven at 6.5 knots at 1750 of the 3000 rpms available through my twin tiny 4 cylinder 57 hp diesels swinging 24" props through 2.32 reduction gears.

The biggest hiccup might be trying to find a deep enough reduction to swing his prop with the Cummins.

 

[Jeff F]

I agree that the 210hp Cummins B series isn't a replacement for a 200hp Gardner. The Gardner is likely continuous rated and can run WOT for days at a time, while the Cummins isn't meant for that duty cycle. Some of the bigger Cummins, Cat, etc. options would be perfectly suitable, however. Or you can over-size the engine a bit and accept a lower duty cycle rating, as the max continuous output will still be adequate.

Well, it depends on how much hp you're using.

I don't buy this need for continuous hp ratings in recreational boats. Who is running the Gardner at near maximum power for any length of time?

5 gph is 100 hp, and the 6bt will run at that output forever.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I would fix the Gardner. It's a classic.

 

[Mako]

The 6b would be all wrong and he’d wind up installing a half ton of lead to reballast.

If the Gardner has to come out then the Cummins 855 big cam would be a comparable replacement. Buy brand new from China with an Advance gear. Don’t overpower. You’ll be set for life.

Also, with that brand new Cummins you’ll have better resale than with the Gardner. Put the Gardner in your garage and tinker with it for years.

Now… if you want to have fun… install a Weichai 6160 medium speed monster, at full hp turning 750rpm.

 

[rslifkin]

Well, it depends on how much hp you're using.

I don't buy this need for continuous hp ratings in recreational boats. Who is running the Gardner at near maximum power for any length of time?

5 gph is 100 hp, and the 6bt will run at that output forever.

You don't need continuous rated, but for an FD hull, you can only use so much power. So either you install an overpowered engine where you'll never get near WOT or you use one that can run almost flat out for as long as you want.



The other point about the Cummins being too light is a good one though. Coming from something like a Gardner, ballast would definitely be needed.

 

[Nick F]

I would fix the Gardner. It's a classic.

+1

 

[Jeff F]

You don't need continuous rated, but for an FD hull, you can only use so much power. So either you install an overpowered engine where you'll never get near WOT or you use one that can run almost flat out for as long as you want.

Agreed. But my point is that for OP's boat and intended purpose, the 6bt probably falls into the overpowered camp. Look at intended fuel consumption. What's the argument for going bigger in displacement?

The other point about the Cummins being too light is a good one though. Coming from something like a Gardner, ballast would definitely be needed.

Yeah, maybe. But choosing a bigger motor simply because it weighs more is an expensive way of maintaining trim [emoji6]

 

[Slo-Mocean]

The 6b would be all wrong and he’d wind up installing a half ton of lead to reballast.

If the Gardner has to come out then the Cummins 855 big cam would be a comparable replacement. Buy brand new from China with an Advance gear. Don’t overpower. You’ll be set for life.

Also, with that brand new Cummins you’ll have better resale than with the Gardner. Put the Gardner in your garage and tinker with it for years.

Now… if you want to have fun… install a Weichai 6160 medium speed monster, at full hp turning 750rpm.

A Chinese built 855 big cam Cummins knock off is better and would be more reliable than that old Gardner ? I've dealt with enough Chinese junk in the automotive and heavy equipment world that I do everything possible to avoid that Krap. Its cheap junk.

Watch the first 8 minutes of this Chinese built Cummins branded oil pump . YouTube

 

[Portage_Bay]

OP states Gardner 8CLY. When I go to https://gardnermarine.com/engines/ I don't find an 8CLY. That aside a Gardner is a more massive engine than the mentioned Cummins 6BT. Which implies the Gardner is higher torque. The two may be similar HP but that's only part of the story.

Ballast can make up for the weight difference. The performance difference with the lighter, lower torque Cummins will be remarkable. Having run boats repowered with lighter engines of similar or greater HP I expect the boat will not respond as quickly in close quarters maneuvering and will be much noisier at cruise speed with the engine turning faster to make the HP.

 

[mvweebles]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a 2000 lb difference in weight between the Gardner and a Cummins B. I was stunned by it's size and hefty. "Beast" doesn't begin to describe a Gardner diesel.

I know the Gardner is hallowed ground. But let's face it - no one wears out an engine so a Gardner is overkill for anyone except those planning on multiple circumnavigations.

That said, rebuild is going to be easier and less expensive and faster than replace. Some engines are expensive to rebuild. Perhaps the Gardner is one.

I'd still like to hear from the OP on what prompted his question.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Thinking about it, to avoid needing to reprop significantly the Cummins B series will need a pretty deep reduction ratio, as it's a much higher revving engine than the Gardner. That's a solvable problem though.

 

[Mako]

What is the Cummins factory allowance for end play on that pump? Is it within spec?

 

[Slo-Mocean]

OP states Gardner 8CLY. When I go to https://gardnermarine.com/engines/ I don't find an 8CLY. That aside a Gardner is a more massive engine than the mentioned Cummins 6BT. Which implies the Gardner is higher torque. The two may be similar HP but that's only part of the story.

Ballast can make up for the weight difference. The performance difference with the lighter, lower torque Cummins will be remarkable. Having run boats repowered with lighter engines of similar or greater HP I expect the boat will not respond as quickly in close quarters maneuvering and will be much noisier at cruise speed with the engine turning faster to make the HP.

Here you go. https://gardnermarine.com/engines/gardner-diesel-engine-8lxb/

 

[Serene]

There is also an 8L3B.

 

[Slo-Mocean]

What is the Cummins factory allowance for end play on that pump? Is it within spec?

Did you watch the video and see the shoddy machining ? And yes the end play and back lash is at the very end of acceptable tolerance without ever being installed.

I dropped my pan on my million 275 Cummins 855/n-14 to replace a leaking gasket and address a oil pump pickup needing attention. I am the kind of person that long as I have it apart ill repair or replace preemptively . I stumbled upon this video before buying a new oil pump for chits and giggles, and glad I did. I measured my end play and backlash on my old 1,275,000 worn out oil pump and it was still in the middle of the acceptable tolerance.

Its almost impossible to buy quality non Chinese bearings anymore. I own 2 Japanese vehicles the highest mileage one is my 2008 Nissan pathfinder with 240 on the odometer with all original sealed non serviceable wheel bearings, wifes g37 never been touched either but only 70 thousand .

Our other 2 are 2003 and 2012 low milage full size Gm products that at 60-70 thousand needed the sealed unserviceable wheel bearings replaced , they were factory gm made in China bearings.

The downfall of trying to maintain and update older equipment these days is the poor quality of replacement parts that are primarily Chinese .

 

[Slo-Mocean]

70 thousand Australian is like 46 Useless US ? Let me price the parts ill fly over and do it for the adventure ,I have a dear friend in Sydney.

 

[Portage_Bay]

That is the 8XLB. OP stares 8CLY. I can only assume the XLB and CLY are similar in displacement, HP and torque.

If my assumption is correct then I stand by my compassion of the Gardner 8 and the Cummins 6. They are similar HP but that's where the similarity ends.