454 Crusaders

[MYNantucket]

I recently replaced the head gasket on my starboard engine and now I can’t get it to start. She turns over but never fires. I have checked the spark at plugs and it’s good. Removed all plugs so I could turn the engine over and removed valve cover to the number one cylinder then I rotated the engine until both valves were up or fully closed on number one cylinder and the crank timing mark was at TDC. Then I set the distributer to number one plug at distributer and advanced distributer approx. 30 degrees. I have checked to see that I have fuel spraying into the carburetor. She won’t start and run.
What am I doing wrong. The starboard engine is left hand rotation and distributer is 18436572. I don’t get it she should run. Any help would be appreciated

 

[Jcslocum]

I think your timing is out. 30* is too much initial timing for starting. Try 10 degrees.

 

[MYNantucket]

I’ve adjusted the distributer while someone was turning over the engine, she still won’t start. It’s odd because the engine ran great with blown head gasket

 

[MYTraveler]

One time, after a rebuild, I had a dickens of a time getting the engine to start, or even cough. Then I realized that the timing was off 360 degrees (ie, one full rotation of the crankshaft). It may may be worth checking.

 

[Jcslocum]

I’ve adjusted the distributer while someone was turning over the engine, she still won’t start. It’s odd because the engine ran great with blown head gasket

You have the fuel taps open? No kinked lines? No pinched wires?

Check for spark while cranking.

You may be 180 out on the timing.

 

[heysteve]

If it's got compression, air, fuel and spark it should run... unless the timing is off. Incorrect timing could be either a distributor issue or the spark plug wires are incorrectly routed. I messed up the routing of the wires once and it took me a loooong time to figure out my stupid mistake.

 

[Crux]

I’ve adjusted the distributer while someone was turning over the engine, she still won’t start. It’s odd because the engine ran great with blown head gasket

Even tho you chased the timing down while cranking, engine may be hopelessly flooded due to prior efforts.

I would do all the above posted verifications.....and pull plugs to insure everything is dry.....why not check compression while plugs are out?

Are you confident in your valve adjusments?

 

[MYNantucket]

Yes I’m confident in valve adjustments I’ve done it on my 68 with 454 . I setup the timing as stated earlier it’s correct. I think it’s loss of vacuum due to a broken gasket at the carb base. Got one on order.

 

[MYNantucket]

Hey Crux, I love that 41Roamer that’s an awesome ship, almost bought a55 ft Roamer years ago

 

[RRPrather]

The starboard engine is right hand rotation. The firing order will be 12756348.

 

[porman]

If I remember correctly from my drag racing days, big block Chevys are right hand rotation, clockwise rotation when looking at the front pulley, and the firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. I don't know the firing order of a left hand rotation engine.

 

[tiltrider1]

There is too little data here to offer good troubleshooting.

Was the distributor removed. If so it could be 180 degrees out.
Was the correct firing order used. If sparkplug wire match the other engine then it is wrong.
Is the cap and rotor properly installed. Sounds simple but I have run into this before.
Do you have points or are you using a the AC Delco electronic ignition. There is a little pot metal cage in the electronic ignition that determines firing. It is not uncommon for this to break and fall out of the distributor, especially if the distributor got thumped with all the head work going on.

 

[rslifkin]

If I remember correctly from my drag racing days, big block Chevys are right hand rotation, clockwise rotation when looking at the front pulley, and the firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. I don't know the firing order of a left hand rotation engine.

That's correct, although rotation is normally defined from the flywheel end, so standard rotation is typically called left hand rotation.

 

[MYTraveler]

Yes I’m confident in valve adjustments I’ve done it on my 68 with 454 . I setup the timing as stated earlier it’s correct. I think it’s loss of vacuum due to a broken gasket at the carb base. Got one on order.

Your timing setup description doesn't rule out the possibility that the distributer is firing 360 degrees out of synch with the valves. Remember, the crankshaft on a 4-stroke makes two complete revolutions in each cycle. So, even if the spark is introduced at exactly the right time, relative to TDC, there is a 50% chance that if you didn't select the right TDC, relative to valve timing, you selected the wrong one. Have you considered this possibility? How have you ruled it out?

 

[KnotYet]

Your timing setup description doesn't rule out the possibility that the distributer is firing 360 degrees out of synch with the valves. Remember, the crankshaft on a 4-stroke makes two complete revolutions in each cycle. So, even if the spark is introduced at exactly the right time, relative to TDC, there is a 50% chance that if you didn't select the right TDC, relative to valve timing, you selected the wrong one. Have you considered this possibility? How have you ruled it out?

In post #1, MYNantucket describes his procedure to determine cyl 1 was in firing position.

 

[MYTraveler]

In post #1, MYNantucket describes his procedure to determine cyl 1 was in firing position.

Yes, I missed that. Thank you.

 

[Action]

Your timing setup description doesn't rule out the possibility that the distributer is firing 360 degrees out of synch with the valves. Remember, the crankshaft on a 4-stroke makes two complete revolutions in each cycle. So, even if the spark is introduced at exactly the right time, relative to TDC, there is a 50% chance that if you didn't select the right TDC, relative to valve timing, you selected the wrong one. Have you considered this possibility? How have you ruled it out?

The OP removed the valve cover and both valves were up as noted in post #1.

In a 4 cycle engine, the "other TDC" is the start of the intake stroke. The intake valve would be down or open to allow the air/fuel mixture to enter the combustion chamber.

If done correctly, the crankshaft damper indicates TDC, both valves of the #1 cylinder are closed then the rotor on the distributor should be at the #1 position.

However, the OP stated removed valve cover of #1 cylinder. I am not that familiar with GM gas engines, pretty sure the valve cover is over 4 cylinders, not just one.
And the OP states dialed in 30 degrees TDC. On a non-running engine I would leave the distributor set at TDC and adjust with a timing light after the engine is running. Too much room for error with engine off.
Then there is the engine rotation and firing order questions.

 

[hfoster]

MY:

I had the same issue on my CC 380 454s. Did the same as you in checking everything. In the end is was the relay in the dash that was not engaging to send the enough spark to the coil. Put an test light on your coil and crank it over. if the light is blinking bright you enough spark and it should start.

You should have two sets of relays for each engine. The first will engage the power to the upper and lower starting switch. the second is to power the coils.

The way I found this out is by pushing in on the relays. As soon as I did that the engine fired right up.

Hope that helps you.

Cheers.

H.

 

[MYNantucket]

Thanks for the information. I wish it was that easy, I have already tried pushing the breaker switch. Oh well your help is appreciated.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I'm rootin' for ya!

Yeah, it sucks when you did all the hard stuff and there's just something else going on...

 

[MYNantucket]

Lol you got it. I’ll figure it out I always do

 

[hfoster]

Thanks for the information. I wish it was that easy, I have already tried pushing the breaker switch. Oh well your help is appreciated.

MY:
It is not the beaker switch, It is the starting relays. The starter relays send the right voltage to go the the starting switches or Key switch and it also sends the right voltage to the coil to give the full spark it needs to fire.

Put a test light on the + side if the coil with it grounded. Crack you engine. if the test light has a low light you are not getting the full voltage to the coil. if you are getting a bright light it has the right voltage.

If your other engine is run do that to that engine and you will see how bright the light is.

If your starting relays (not the breaker) are not engaging you are only getting half voltage to the coil. You will have some spark at the plugs but not enough to fire the engine.

My relays are inside my dash, I have the breaker on key on then I have a 3 stage toggle switch to start the engines. The first stage of the toggle switch is off . Middle is power to the coil 3rd stage is start the engine. I let go and the toggle goes to the middle to key the power on the coil to keep the spark going.

The relays engages that power to the coil.

Another test you can do is hot wire the engine. Put 12 volts the coil and via a battery and then jumper out solenoid.

That will start it if everything else is in order.

H.

 

[hfoster]

Here is what one of my relays look like.
You may have a different kind.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144054233093

 

[Action]

This may be far off -

In the automotive world with non-electronic ignition, the ignition coil operates off of reduced voltage. (5 to 9 volts) The reduced voltage is to protect the coil. To achieve the reduced voltage there is a resistance wire or a resistance block. If full 12 volts is applied full time the coil over heats over longer periods of time and the windings burn out. The exception is during engine starting. Typically the resistance circuit is by-passed when cranking the starter and full battery voltage is applied to the coil.

In my opinion this may not be the issue. Because even at reduced voltage the coil will generate a spark.

Electronic ignition engines either follow the same set up (1st gen electronic ignition) or have coils that can handle full battery voltage because they have thicker internal wiring. Later gen electronic ignition.

Just a FYI if it helps.

Action

 

[PM]

Sounds like a 180 degree rotation of the distributer but I am curious, have you solved the problem?

Once I pulled some heads and had the valve adjustment way out of whack, do you have compression?

pete

 

[Jcslocum]

Sounds like a 180 degree rotation of the distributer but I am curious, have you solved the problem?

Once I pulled some heads and had the valve adjustment way out of whack, do you have compression?

pete

Pete has brought up an excellent point. How were the valves adjusted upon install? Did you roll the engine and bring each piston up to it's TDC with the lifters on the base of the lobe and adjust?

 

[Action]

That engine in automotive form has non-adjustable rocker arms with hydraulic lifters.
However, there is a rocker arm tightening sequence that has to be done.
No valve or rocker arm adjustment

Action

 

[KnotYet]

That engine in automotive form has non-adjustable rocker arms with hydraulic lifters.
However, there is a rocker arm tightening sequence that has to be done.
No valve or rocker arm adjustment

Action

I'm pretty sure that those have the standard GM rocker ball nut adjustment.
The OP said he is familiar with the procedure which allows for a wide range of
adjustment and can be set up without running the engine. A compression test
would verify that the valves are closing fully and vacuum would show they are
opening at least partially.

 

[Crux]

That engine in automotive form has non-adjustable rocker arms with hydraulic lifters.
However, there is a rocker arm tightening sequence that has to be done.
No valve or rocker arm adjustment

Action

True with Gen 4 and 5 engines, when rocker nut is tightened, bottomed, and torqued, it automatically sets valve adjustment to middle of hydraulic lifter range..

But with earlier engines, (which 'identiify' as carbureated lol)..the adjustment is the old GM standard.....with valve fully closed...tighten carefully and feel for 'zero' lash at rocker/valve stem....then tighten an additional 1/2 turn...which puts adjustment in center of hyd lifter range.

(note- if someone has installed solid lifters, valve clearence must be set with feeler gauges)

To confirm which you have, google head casting numbers on top of head...the 'Gen' roman numeral may also be present

 

[PM]

It may not seem like you have adjustable valves but you do. If you get the rockers too tight you will crush the lifters, unless you have solid lifters, which I doubt. Crushing the lifters will not kill them, they need to be adjusted for some play.

Quick diagnosis would be a compression test.

Pete