What Would You Have Done?

[SoWhat]

Do cables just fail?
I would think you'd have stiff controls for quite a while before actual failure

Had a drooping cable. Fan belt eventually cut through it. No advance warning.

On another occasion, cable just fell apart. Vibration must have loosened nut? No advance warning.

I go very very slow in marinas.

 

[psneeld]

Going slow when prudent is important.

Going too slow at times can get a skipper in trouble....seen it too many times and had to clean up the mess as the assistance tower.

When transiting confined areas, one has to be constantly updating their emergency procedures for both a power off situation, a power on and unable to stop situation AND a loss of steering situation.

But that's unfair to expect of most boaters and their experience levels and thus collisions will continue to happen.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Fixing the steering was my first boat repair. A lot of play in the upper helm. A broken plastic pulley on the connection to the lower master helm. Replaced with steel pulley -

 

[vertigopilot]

Do cables just fail?
I would think you'd have stiff controls for quite a while before actual failure

Most of the time, but not always. I've seen seemingly-functional and smooth shift cable go inop without warning. Captain was dumfounded; I reached over and shut down the engine to buy him some time to think.

 

[murofrelwart]

What would I have done? Turned on my red-over-red ("the captain is dead") navigation lights, if course.

It's not night, so I would have displayed two black balls, the dayshape for not under command.


Seriously....


Before the failure:


1. When entering or exiting a marina, anchor free and ready to be deployed immediately.
2. PFDs are worn while on the bow.



After the failure:


3. Drop the anchor
4. 5 long blasts - Danger/Doubt
5. Get on the bowsprit with a big fender ready, deploy as necessary.
6. Securite call on Channel 16.
7. Once the situation is stable, work to solve the original fault.

 

[dannc]

Thought of another mechanical failure/problem.

Was out sailing, came back through the inlet where a bunch of things went wrong FAST. One of the issues was the throttle got stuck at a high RPM, which was better than being stuck at idle, but stuck it was....

No way in heck could we dock without throttle control. We had 30-45 minutes to get back to the marina so we head backed with the wife at the helm and me checking various things. My plan was if I could not solve the problem, we would call for a tow which was based in the marina. We would circle outside the marina and when the tow boat got to us, I would just kill the engine. Thankfully, I figured out the problem and the plan was not needed.

The problem was the linkage could get moved in a specific way that would lock it up. The quick fix was to wiggle the throttle a certain way which would "unlock" the linkage.

If the throttle locked up during docking.....

 

[UrsusMaritimus]

I think it’s easy to sit here and second guess, those controllers scare the crap out of me. Makes me glad for the simple cables and double helms on my current boat.

That said, on a previous boat, a small Ranger Tug, I was reversing in a tight anchorage when my shift cable snapped. My first reaction was to kill the engine, and second was to drop the anchor. We managed to stop before getting close to any other boats but we were pretty close to some rocks. In this video, my first thought was “drop anchor”.

 

[rgano]

I would never have had electronic controls at all.

Count yourself lucky. Very first think I did was remove the Micro Commander on this boat in favor of Teleflex cable system with a SeaStar (Morse) control.

Big boat, two people, lack of forethought adds up to a scary situation. With a person stationed on the bow like this couple were doing, the anchor should be hanging off the keeper on the windlass brake ready to let fall free without the looooong delay of a slow windlass letting it go. Then a quick engagement of the brake and hope for the best. They would not have come nearly so close if they had used the "boat brake" immediately. That's the way commercial and Navy vessels do it.

 

[vertigopilot]

I think it’s easy to sit here and second guess, those controllers scare the crap out of me. Makes me glad for the simple cables and double helms on my current boat.

That said, on a previous boat, a small Ranger Tug, I was reversing in a tight anchorage when my shift cable snapped. My first reaction was to kill the engine, and second was to drop the anchor. We managed to stop before getting close to any other boats but we were pretty close to some rocks. In this video, my first thought was “drop anchor”.

There's no shortage of horror stories to fuel that fear of electronic propulsion controls, but that is based more in fiction than reality. Your own experience with sudden failure of a shift cable in gear demonstrates amply that cable controls are not immune from disaster.


Those of us who sell, install and service electronic propulsion controls know that the bulk of the sentiment against them is based on a lack of understanding of how the technologies work, and what failure modes are not possible. (More on that to follow.)


As an experienced installer of these upgrade systems I can say that I've seen plenty of examples of cable controls hanging on the edge of disaster, and that I firmly believe that potential failure modes of electronic controls are substantially outweighed by their advantages.


The yachting industry didn't transition to electronic propulsion controls (first analog and then CANbus) as a cost saving measure, but because the benefits are real.

 

[Simi 60]

)


As an experienced installer of these upgrade systems I can say that I've seen plenty of examples of cable controls hanging on the edge of disaster, .

But thats a maintenance, or lack of issue.

 

[vertigopilot]

Yes, no, maybe

Seems in this example, when they went out they had her stuck in reverse at 2100rpm

Other examples mentioned here as well
https://www.google.com/search?q=Mat...2&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8&bshm=rime/6

As tempting as it may be to disparage that particular control system (full disclosure: I sell and install competing systems), I have to say that the alleged failure mode smacks me as utterly implausible. To the very best of my knowledge there does not exist in the yachting industry a propulsion control system that takes or arbitrates control over the engine's ECU, and so could not possibly interfere with simply turning off the engine. Furthermore, electronic controls do not act as the final gatekeeper of the rpm of a running engine, but only provide a throttle position signal (generally a variable voltage or resistance in response to a potentiometer output) to the ECU requesting more power or less. If that signal from the throttle control becomes inoperative or is interrupted (by a short, low voltage or turning off the throttle control's power supply for example), then the engine's ECU is left at idle (and the shift control defaulted to neutral) because the engine's ECU defaults to its idle settings in the absence of a valid off-idle request.


With the transition from analog electronic propulsion controls to CANBus, the layers of safety are increased even further. All of our modern automobiles use the same proven throttle-by-wire architectures, and rely on them not to go wide-open-throttle or block us from shutting off the engine when the car battery gets old or the alternator weak.


Whatever actually caused that boat to ram the dock in reverse at cruise power and kept the captain from shutting down the engine(s), it surely was not an inoperative electronic propulsion control.

 

[Comodave]

One thing to remember is that when something goes wrong it takes some time for the average person to first realize that something is going wrong. Most peoples first response is denial, as in this cannot be happening. And then there is time to decide what to do about it first. Did they respond correctly, I would say no, but then again I wasn’t there. So I really am not in any position to say much about it without doing more research.

 

[rgano]

Comodave brings up a good point. Most mom and pop boating operations do not involve at least one person trained and drilled in proper urgent decision loop action. A few people may have the inborn capability to instantly sort the chaff and react, but I'd guess it is not a widespread and natural talent. Road accident stats with the high percentage of them involving incorrect reactions ending in vehicles flipping and rolling all over the place would tend to bear that out. It doesn't matter what sort of environment the training is in, military or industrial/transportation, just as long as the time-consuming denial phase is eliminated during the training from the person's thought processes. Once the denial idea is expunged, critical equipment knowledge will combine to with lack of denial to speed one to the correct action. It's hard to push yourself out of the idea that your safety while afloat on your boat on a nice day could turn on your ability to instantly respond to an unexpected equipment casualty.

For all I know the gentleman running the boat is a former lightning quick fighter pilot, but judging from what I saw - NOT. But that does not mean he could not have preconditioned his mind to initially react more appropriately.

In the event under discussion, hanging an anchor for immediate deployment and double checking the reverse gear before entering close quarters come to mind as reasonable precautions to mitigate the risk of operating tons of valuable equipment in close quarters. Such actions would get the mind in gear to be thinking a few more boat lengths ahead than this man did. I do, do you?

 

[SteveK]

Rich, I agree with most of what you said.
The video and the captain speaking has already shown they had reverse gear on the starboard engine. There is no mention of losing that reverse so I was puzzled why it was not used more. Twice forward momentum was halted. The port engine appeared to be in forward gear.

 

[Fish53]

You are required to make every effort to maintain control of your vessel so in this situation, assuming steering with twin engines doesn’t work an anchor is called for followed by a security call. I once lost a engine in a channel, still had steering, one engine and bow thruster and made a security call yet was fined $3500 by the CG for not anchoring. It was the boat in my avatar.

 

[Xlantic]

Rich, I agree with most of what you said.
The video and the captain speaking has already shown they had reverse gear on the starboard engine. There is no mention of losing that reverse so I was puzzled why it was not used more. Twice forward momentum was halted. The port engine appeared to be in forward gear.

My thoughts entirely.

Maybe a bit of drama to liven up the Youtube channel?

 

[psneeld]

I don't know how people can watch many of the You Tube channels of boaters.

About one is the only one linked here that I saw and episode that I have had much respect toward.

I get those looking to broaden their horizons... but so many really are bad examples of boating. With a relative open mind and discerning follow up of most posts...I think I see a bit more truth and correctness here on TF.

Even the "how to" ones are pretty scary...but enough do show things that come in handy.

 

[Adopo]

I actually subscribe to this Chanel and love to watch from afar as people live out their dreams. There are many channels like this on Youtube. Regarding youtube, get the premium upgrade for only about 100 a year, as it totally eliminates commercials and allows you to categorize your channels alphabetically to watch when you desire. And many sporting events are live on youtube, and you can simply watch highlights, like the F1 race or football without sitting for 2 hours. Finally youtube is great for instructional videos on how to do things, visit countries, or wonderful 5k background scenery.

All of that said, what if it is staged for clicks lol. I don't really believe this, but who knows. I really don't think you would take a chance of stretching a 25 million dollar Feadship just for a few more clicks. I was wondering though when they could not hale the yacht, why they did not blow the trumpets, or do that in the beginning with immediate anchor drop?

Entertaining none-the-less...living the dream.

ACTA Yacht Charter Price - Feadship Luxury Yacht Charter

Just to illustrate the point about youtube, here are a few or my favorite channels. I find myself watching this on my smart TV vs regular programing with tons and tons of commercials.

Harbour Town Yacht Basin HHI (we have 70 foot slip here, and the modern Wheeler with black hull if still there was built at Brooklin Boat Yard, Me. There are of modern construction and about 2mm. We actually say it being built when we purchased our 30 Scout there.

The Drydock

Boat test (you have to pay a subscription for this one but I find it worthwhile)

https://www.youtube.com/@BoatTEST

Clifford Rome

Tony Fleming, a single step

 

[SteveK]

Reality YouTube.

 

[Mambo42]

I saw the video actually twice before I decided to write a comment here.
As a pilot the following was drilled into me during military pilot training:

1. Maintain Aircraft Control
2. Analyse the situation
3. Take proper action
4. Land as soon as conditions permit.

Although it may sound strange, but this is applicable to almost any situation, private or business.
In this case the most important part was to maintain control over the vessel. Obviously when the gearbox control system shut down there was no more control. Luckily the boat was moving at slow speed. I do understand the captain had a bow thruster, but don't know if he had a stern thruster.
In any case, to regain control there was basically only one thing to do and although he did it in the end, he should have done it earlier: Drop the anchor.
Once the anchor is dropped and it holds there is enough time to start analysing and take the proper action.

In this case the captain skipped the maintain control part and went straight for the 'take proper action' since he had an idea what the cause of the problem might be.

Although the intend is good with trying to fix the situation, 'driving the boat' is always the best option.

If the captain would have dropped the anchor as soon as he lost control all the rest would have become much easier.

 

[diver dave]

How does one proceed to item 2, if item 1 is not accomplished?

If basic thrust is not manageable, can i claim control?

 

[Mambo42]

How does one proceed to item 2, if item 1 is not accomplished?

If basic thrust is not manageable, can i claim control?

When we are talking aircraft 'maintaining control' could be translated as 'not falling out of the sky, getting into a stall etc'. Even when you have lost all power you can still have aerodynamic control of the plane.
Translated to boats you could see this as something like stopping any motion in the direction of danger (read: this mega yacht). Having an anchor hold the boat in position, even when it is in a water way can still be considered as 'having control of the boat'. Drifting along with no directional control of the boat cannot be considered as 'maintaining control'.

If any action is required to maintain control you are of course allowed / obliged to take that action.
Translate that to boats and it will be obvious that out at sea is a different situation as in close quarters (like here in this video).

 

[diver dave]

I totally agree with premise; just need to doctor up the four steps.

Maybe:

1what is happening?
2 what is the effect (how bad)
3. What is immediate countermeasure
4. What is eventual solution.

Things like:
Control lack of response, anchor drag, lightning hit, bottom hit, galley fire, water over sole, whale collision, Man there are a lot. [emoji51]

Pilots get seconds. We get a minute??

 

[mvweebles]

A bit of a pop-quiz today. With the help of fellow TF'er Slowgoesit, I took Weebles to the boatyard today to remove some ballast and align engine. Generally a long day of inactivity with a break for ceviche tostadas, the highlight.

On the way back to the marina while 100 yards abreast of Royal Caribbeans Navigator of the Sea, the engine died. Dead in the water. I was pretty sure I knew what happened - the mechanic accidentally turned off the Racor valve when squeezed into my engine compartment aligning engine.

I flicked on the Walbro priming pump and tried to restart the engine. No-go. I thought about launching the anchor but we weren't drifting much, and the bit we were was away from the Cruise ship.

I radioed Traffic on channel 14 and informed we were dead in the water, that we were going to drop anchor if needed (this could have been clearer - we did not drop anchor but were prepared to do so, but should have given better information to Traffic). They asked our position and number of passengers onboard. And also asked if we needed assistance. I responded that I thought we would be underway in 5-10 minutes (this response should have been clearer - first word should have been either a "yes" or a "no").

It's been a loooong time since I've bled my engine. Was great to have Scot looking over my shoulder. We had the engine started in about 3 minutes and radioed Traffic that we were underway.

Overall, I'd give myself a 'B-' for my response. Honestly, I was a bit rattled and my radio etiquette was not as direct and explicit as it could have been, especially given the language barrier (English is supposed to be the universal language, but this is Mexico - I am a guest). It was not near the emergency the couple in the video encountered given they were bearing down on a yacht.

I also had the benefit of having a knowledgeable crew aboard. Took a lot of pressure off.

In the end, while it's productive to do the armchair quarterback thing, how I responded was not as admirable as how I wish I had responded, especially since I drove professionally for awhile, albeit over 20 years ago.

Peter

PS - thanks again Scot

 

[SteveK]

Walbro priming pump and tried to restart the engine. No-go.

Peter, why did the primer pump fail here.

 

[Slo-Mocean]

I have 20 year old electronic shift/ throttle controls on my recently purchased trawler which concerns me , dont recall the brand.

Slow and gentle from my sailboat years will hopefully prevent any situation should one arise .

Back in the 90s I docked my commercial parasail boat at Pirates Cove in Wanchese. The charter fish guys were all single engine 45-55 footers and would line up off the slip and back in Hot. One guy a couple slips down from me was backing down hard and the shift bracket on the transmission had vibrated loose and when he thought he was accelerating forward after backing into his slip he accelerated into the seawall.

Well built battlewagon took the beating surprisingly well.

 

[mvweebles]

Peter, why did the primer pump fail here.

Pump didn't fail per-se, but having it didn't remove the need to prime the fuel system. So I don't know exactly but its a good question. Engine is a circa 1992 Perkins 4.236, so definitely old-school. When I initially tried to re-start with Walbro turned-on, I was hoping it would fire-up. I had the throttle fully forward, and cranked for 10-seconds or so. My engine starts immediately so when it didn't start, I halted and went to Plan B - contact Vessel Traffic and blead the fuel at the injectors, though there didn't seem to be much air. Even after bleading the injectors, it took a good 10-seconds of cranking before the engine roared to life. I don't know how long it was between time engine died and the time I bled it and was underway again. Probably 3-minutes, but my mind was racing. BTW - this is the second time in 25+ years I've had a self-induced shut down due to accidental fuel valves (first time was when I first my girlfriend/now-wife who thought I was pulling an old trick on her).

I will say one thing: having the Walbro priming pump installed instead of using the manual lift-pump saved a ton of time. In this case, in the middle of an active ship channel, it kept a barely stressful situation from becoming a 'change-your-underpants' situation.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

I have 20 year old electronic shift/ throttle controls on my recently purchased trawler which concerns me , dont recall the brand.
.

I'm no expert, but I see you have a Great Harbor 37. If I recall, these have an enclosed helm. I have not heard of many failures of electronic controls, and the ones I have heard of were due to moisture intrusion of the upper helm. Fly-by-wire technology has been around in planes, boats, trucks, etc. for decades.

That said, having a Plan B for engine dying is a good idea.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

I would have thought a primer pump would pump fuel and push any air back into the tank via the return line. I expected that fuel near the injectors would then clear any residual, engine would start. If that is not the case then yes the only benefit is no losy yime with manual pumping

 

[rslifkin]

Some injector pumps clear air better than others. With some engines, if you've got a little bit of air in just the wrong place in the pump, it won't push through and self bleed while cranking.