What type of hull?

[David Hughes]

Well I’ll be damned. There are a few gassers that fit the bill, in Chicago, in Michigan, in Tennessee, etc. I guess I’m more used to ocean boats where gas would be very odd...

 

[Nomad Willy]

Just for scope the 62’ CC Motor Yacht had gas power.
Three 160hp flathead 6 cylinder gas engines.
Much bigger than most 6cyl car engines.
Early 50’s.

 

[Jeff F]

Well I’ll be damned. There are a few gassers that fit the bill, in Chicago, in Michigan, in Tennessee, etc. I guess I’m more used to ocean boats where gas would be very odd...

Yup. I've been wandering around in boatyards in Chicago for the last few weeks. Amazing what you can find. I saw a 46 foot aluminum Chris Craft - 1960ish - sitting in covered storage that looked dusty but pretty pristine. Gassers. Might be a great 50k boat for the right person. There are lots of these sorts of boats around, many not actively for sale but open to offers.

 

[JimmyV]

Guys don’t take this wrong but the last posts have me chuckling pretty good.

RTF I’m not confused but amused. I have enjoyed the comments on all the posts.

There are some decent Marina’s around the Great Lakes. I know three right here in Green Bay that do great work. Not sure about working on Lehman engines though RTF

I did find a couple boats at Skipper Buds in Sturgeon Bay WI for just under $70,000. We will be going up tomorrow to take a look at them.

Thanks again guys for the help.

Jim

 

[sunchaser]

JV
In Ludington MI there is a Trojan 44 for sale. It has very desirable diesels, DD 671Ns. $55K. I've been on the 44s, very nice vessels. If taken care of correctly this could be worth visiting.

 

[smitty477]

I guess the biggest thing for me was fuel economy. My Wellcraft has Volvo 7.4 GI and cruising at 18 knots burns about 40gph. I know I could cruise slower but not being on plane the ride isn’t great. It’s nice to cruise faster but wish I could go at least 10-15 knots with decent fuel economy.

Thanks Jim

If this continues to be a goal of yours and you intend to cruise any decent distances (40+ foot boats) I would stay with diesels. We have cruised many 100+ mile legs with gas powered boats in our cruising group and between the fuel usage, fuel costs, range and actual attainable cruising speed I think you will be better off with diesel.
On the other hand if you are not going larger distances, not going past say 7 knots 90% of the time and do not require max range then gas may be a viable option.

 

[Henning]

With the money you're looking to spend, you could get a pretty decent decommissioned fishing or patrol vessel. This approach has some serious benefits:

- You get all the space in the world. Sectioning off and furnishing a hold with stuff from Ikea is much cheaper than dealing with bespoke interiors.
- You get a whole new level of sea keeping ability, and that nasty 3 foot chop is reduced to a mere annoyance. A properly ballasted North Sea trawler can be damn near indestructible.
- You extend your economical speed range, sometimes beyond 10 knots.
- You get all kind of serious equipment thrown into the bargain, like multi stage fuel clarification, redundant power generation and heavy-duty lifting gear.


On the flip side, there are some inconveniences:
- Upkeep is an order of magnitude more expensive.
- Slow speed fuel burn may be a lot higher than for smaller boats, especially with vessels optimized for dwt vs loa. OTOH, older patrol vessels can be surprisingly cheap to run at 8 kts.
- Large boats can be intimidating at first (though it passes quickly)
- You run the risk of being That Guy.

 

[Lepke]

Gas in big boats would be a horrendous fuel bill if you travel much. Gasoline is even worse than new diesel for stability.
I have always had big boats, current is 83'. Going back to 1961. You dock with more care and planning, but otherwise a lot more comfortable. Especially in the ocean. And the longer hull gives a better hull speed and can be faster and cheaper on fuel than a shorter boat. My boat with twin DD 671s cruises easily at 10 knots using about 8.5 gallons. Almost half the fuel at 7 knots.
Depending on how old you are, your abilities, and what you need in resale, there are many boats within your budget. If you're old, not worried about resale, a boat needing some work that will last through your retirement safely, may be the answer.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Lepke,
Length is golden indeed.
My short boat is limited to 6.25 knots.

How do you afford moorage for these big boats?

 

[JimmyV]

Sunchaser

Thanks I will take a look at that boat.

Smitty

Thanks for the thought on longer trips. I do plan on traveling the Great Lakes more in the near future.

Henning

Thanks that would be a good idea, but I think the upkeep would be way too much for me.

Lepke

I wish I could afford an 83ftr. I did look at a couple of 55ft boats but for now it would be too big. I am not afraid to drive the boat but I would rather live permanently on a boat that size.

Thanks guys

Jim

 

[Lepke]

Lepke,
Length is golden indeed.
My short boat is limited to 6.25 knots.

How do you afford moorage for these big boats?

I have a private dock. State owns the bank and land under the dock. It's a lease. Costs about $4800/year taxes and insurance. Cheap compared to a marina, but simple. MY boat would be $1000/month. Hull speed and the Detroits were why I picked my current boat.
Detroits are economic in the right hull. I've always had big boats, always on the lookout for decent dockage, my first boat was 65' with almost identical engines. With that boat I got free dockage for maintaining the dock. Just a single dock parallel to the bank about 300' long. In high water, debris would pack between the bank and dock and cleaning it out was my job. All kinds of stuff comes down the river. One year I salvaged a 30' boat with a Ford model A engine. Sometimes rattlesnakes, but very slow in the cold. Early 1960s. Back then there was a marina or dock every 1/2 mile all the way to Astoria.
On your 6.25 knots, in the USN I was on destroyers or ran patrol boats. After several years of cruising 27 knots or better, it was hard to come down to my usual 7 knot fishing boat. But then I was paying the fuel bill.

 

[Bryant]

There is an exponential difference between cruising with 4 adults and 6 adults on a "40 something" size boat of any kind.
Having said that, I have a 1984 Grand Banks 36 Classic. Two staterooms and two heads. That is huge when traveling with additional couples. I would recumbent the GB 36 classic or the 42 if you can find one. When you say "60,000" are you talking about just purchase price or total investment? You will probably have to go to a boat older than 1980 to get a 36 for that price and you will probably have to go to '75 or maybe even wood to get a 42 at that price. Boats that age generally require a lot of time, energy and money to bring up to speed so you either pay on the front end or the back.
My recommendation is do what I did. Buy a mid 80's boat with nice bones that is useable and then take the next few years to refit and bring it up to standards of what you want, spending as you go and can afford. That gives you the added benefit of saving on the front end and then figuring out what you really want/need as you go. Good luck.

 

[ptoliver]

Fiberglass

Always heard that fiberglass boat builders changed manufacturing methods in the early 80's. Many say not to look at a boat older than 1982.

Problems like soft plywood or balsa cores, to much glass mat, weak hard resins, blisters, overbuilt for displacement.

 

[PhatDad]

60K budget for a 40' plus trawler type boat. Get ready to be disappointed. JMO.

 

[RickyD]

Take a look at CHB 42-45. Well made hull. Well known problems so you can avoid certain boats. Can be found close to your stated budget

 

[refugio]

I think the early 80s reference must be when vinylester resins became more common and blisters ceased to be a major concern. Not sure I’d make that a big deal - 70s Hatterases are very durable for example.

 

[Sharpseadog]

Keith

Thanks. The only reason I mentioned things other than the hull was due to reading other posts were guys asked about purchasing a boat and then being asked for more info.

I appreciate your advice. I agree that 6 adults would be too much but was looking at traveling across Lake Michigan and docking at Harbor but staying in local hotel. I have 2 sons, one married with second child on the way and the other son is serious with current but you never know how that goes.

Thanks again

Jim

For any boat there is a "hull speed" beyond which fuel consumption goes up exponentially. Trawlers are designed with displacement or semi-Displacement hulls. They are designed to efficiently move through the water. Most cannot plane at all, but if they do, fuel consumption goes through the roof. Hull speed is 1.3 times the square root of the WATERLINE length. That formula applies to everything from a 16 ft runabout to an ocean liner. I have a Helmsman 38 with a 5.9 liter turbocharged Cummins diesel rated @ 380 HP. At hull speed of about 7 KTS it burns less than 3 gallons per hour at 1600 RPM. If I run it at 2800 RPM, I get up to about 12 KTS and fuel burn goes to 18 GPH! And the boat has hasn't ever planed, but it does produce one "helluva" wake. Needless to say, unless I'm in an unusually strong current or getting out of the way of a tug or oil tanker, I cruise at 7 KTS. Other than that, i might have to run up to 1900-200 RPM and 6 GPM to maintain my 7 KTS water speed in strong headwinds and seas. An old friend was complaining that it would take him an hour in his 30 KT fishing boat to get to where he wanted to fish. I told him it would take me half a day to get there. You know what he said? "Yeah Paul, but you're where you want to be as soon as you're out of the breakwater" it's about the journey as much as the destination. [emoji924][emoji924][emoji196]

 

[Nomad Willy]

I think the early 80s reference must be when vinylester resins became more common and blisters ceased to be a major concern. Not sure I’d make that a big deal - 70s Hatterases are very durable for example.

Varies boat to boat and among builders.
My 74 Willard has quite a few nickle sized blisters that are easy to deal with. Other Willards have huge blister problems. I don’t think Uniflites have blisters below the WL. Some have lots elsewhere though.

If I was a shopper I’d be more worried about core water damage. It’s best for any part of a boat to get wet gracefully. One nice thing about a wood boat is that any part that suffers from rot can just be replaced. Most pieces can be replaced easily.

 

[JimmyV]

My recommendation is do what I did. Buy a mid 80's boat with nice bones that is useable and then take the next few years to refit and bring it up to standards of what you want, spending as you go and can afford. That gives you the added benefit of saving on the front end and then figuring out what you really want/need as you go. Good luck.

Bryant. Thanks for the advice. I am looking at possibly doing that.

JV

 

[JimmyV]

An old friend was complaining that it would take him an hour in his 30 KT fishing boat to get to where he wanted to fish. I told him it would take me half a day to get there. You know what he said? "Yeah Paul, but you're where you want to be as soon as you're out of the breakwater" it's about the journey as much as the destination. [emoji924][emoji924][emoji196]

Sharpseadog, those are my sentiments exactly. I would like to cruise quicker but don't have an issue with enjoying the ride. Also saving a pants full of money makes the decision a little easier.

Thanks

JV

 

[JimmyV]

60K budget for a 40' plus trawler type boat. Get ready to be disappointed. JMO.

Phatdad, I agree with upping the budget. I mentioned earlier we upped our budget to 100K after reading some of the comments. Thanks for the input because after looking at quite a few boats we realized that we are either going to dump a bunch of money to make it what we want or buy something that may already have a few updates but mechanically is sound.

Thanks

JV

 

[johnma]

Jimmy
take a look at mid 80's Bayliner 4588. Twin diesels, 3 staterooms, pilot house, lots of room. there are several on Yachtworld in the $79k - $100k range. I've been on a lot of these over the years and they are really nice boats.
John

 

[JimmyV]

Jimmy
take a look at mid 80's Bayliner 4588. Twin diesels, 3 staterooms, pilot house, lots of room. there are several on Yachtworld in the $79k - $100k range. I've been on a lot of these over the years and they are really nice boats.
John

John

I did look at a couple of them. I have heard good things and bad but that is with any boat and anyones opinion. What is your thought on the Bayliner line itself? I have heard the hulls have had issues along with the runners. I just read a forum discussion on the Bayliner 4588 on this forum. Here is the link: http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/bayliner-4588-a-11530.html

I am a little less worried about the boat itself, so I just need to look at ones that have been well taken care of.

Thanks
Jimmy

 

[johnma]

Jimmy,
Bayliners often get a bad rap because the smaller ones are entry level boats and are owned by people that have little or no boating experience and are on the bottom end of the learning curve. That said, at our marina, there are several small ones (21' and under) that have been purchased from long time boaters in their eighties that just want to stay on the water in a small manageable boat. I have often heard them described as the "Chevy of boats". My first two boats were Bayliners. One was a 27' and was just ok. I owned it for 3 years. The second was a 32' Avanti (express cruiser) Similar in style to your Wellcraft. I owned that for 17 years. It was much better than the 27'. The first marina I was in was a very large Bayliner dealer and over 90% of the boats there were Bayliners. Everything from 16' to 47'. IMO Bayliners from 38' and up were good quality boats. I especially liked the 38, 45 and 47. There are a lot of those larger boats around from the early and mid eighties.
Good luck
John

 

[smitty477]

John

I did look at a couple of them. I have heard good things and bad but that is with any boat and anyones opinion. What is your thought on the Bayliner line itself? I have heard the hulls have had issues along with the runners. I just read a forum discussion on the Bayliner 4588 on this forum. Here is the link: http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/bayliner-4588-a-11530.html

I am a little less worried about the boat itself, so I just need to look at ones that have been well taken care of.

Thanks
Jimmy

"What is your thought on the Bayliner line itself?"
The hulls of the lager Bayliners have been mostly problem free.
If you have more detailed questions please ask- i have owned a few of the larger Bayliners over the years.

 

[PhatDad]

Jimmy
take a look at mid 80's Bayliner 4588. Twin diesels, 3 staterooms, pilot house, lots of room. there are several on Yachtworld in the $79k - $100k range. I've been on a lot of these over the years and they are really nice boats.
John

Avoid that boat at all costs. There is a very good reason you can buy the bayliners so cheap. Bayliner uses the cheapest of the cheapest on every system. Interior and exterior. The newer the boat, the worst they are.

 

[Bacchus]

I cringe when I read blanket generalities about Bayliners. I don't believe you can do that and be accurate or fair without qualifying it.
IMO
The smaller Bayliners of most any vintage are ok starter boats. They have gotten a lot of people into boating. Our 24' served us well as a starter and we cruised it for a month at a time and went a lot farther than many folks we know with much larger and more expensive boats.
The larger 40'+ Bayliners are a whole different line of boats. I haven't owned one but have read many posts here and elsewhere with VERY satisfied owners and good experiences for the most part.
I would recommend in your size range keeping them on the long list... talk to some owners... take a serious look and make up your own mind.

 

[smitty477]

Avoid that boat at all costs. There is a very good reason you can buy the bayliners so cheap. Bayliner uses the cheapest of the cheapest on every system. Interior and exterior. The newer the boat, the worst they are.

I am curious which Bayliner(s) you owned and what type of problem(s) you had with the boat? Please share the details of the problem.

 

[Nomad Willy]

smitty477,
We’ve been through this before.
All of our experiences are small compared to whats out there. It’s a big world. You’re stand is like the mom that says “how many kids have you had” and if you say “not any muself .... “ she’ll junp on you say you aren’t qualified to speak of kids and don’t know anything. But people w kids share willingly and there’s lots of parents out there.
The short of it is that one can learn a great deal about a great many things by listening and reading. Re Bayliners the good/bad and opinions flow freely.
And there’s the element of big volume manufacturing benefits that small builders don’t have. And there’s no doubt if you build lots of one thing you can get really good at it.
Wev’ve heard it all before. At least those that have been around. Bashing Bayliners gets popular because the bashers seem to be everybody and it’s easy to jump on the bandwagon and have little risk getting tomatoes or eggs on self. Look back in TF and you’ll find most of us came to the conclusion that Bayliners were good boats.
One prominent feature found on high volume boats is the lack of custom boat features. The’ve got to appeal to most all people or the big volume just won’t happen. BMW will never be a Ford or Honda.

 

[smitty477]

smitty477,
We’ve been through this before.
All of our experiences are small compared to whats out there. It’s a big world. You’re stand is like the mom that says “how many kids have you had” and if you say “not any muself .... “ she’ll junp on you say you aren’t qualified to speak of kids and don’t know anything. But people w kids share willingly and there’s lots of parents out there.
The short of it is that one can learn a great deal about a great many things by listening and reading. Re Bayliners the good/bad and opinions flow freely.
And there’s the element of big volume manufacturing benefits that small builders don’t have. And there’s no doubt if you build lots of one thing you can get really good at it.
Wev’ve heard it all before. At least those that have been around. Bashing Bayliners gets popular because the bashers seem to be everybody and it’s easy to jump on the bandwagon and have little risk getting tomatoes or eggs on self. Look back in TF and you’ll find most of us came to the conclusion that Bayliners were good boats.
One prominent feature found on high volume boats is the lack of custom boat features. The’ve got to appeal to most all people or the big volume just won’t happen. BMW will never be a Ford or Honda.

"The short of it is that one can learn a great deal about a great many things by listening and reading."
Hence my question about what exactly is the problem(s) that was experienced.
There is no learning if there is no exchange of information.
PS - I do not own one anymore so I have no dog in this fight other than presenting information based upon years of experience as a boater and a Bayliner owner. I have also owned a couple of trawlers and other powerboats over the yeatrs.