Westerbeke diesel gen Obi-wan

[Nick F]

You can just use a air gun with the rubber tip placed into the glow plug hole to do a down and dirty leak test. No gauge required. If there is a large air leak it may be obvious. Remove the oil dip stick to check for blow by. You could even tape a bag over it

+1 !

 

[SIBERNUT]

Can't do glow plugs hole, it is in a common manifold before valves.

UH OH used old rubber top comp gauge, only makes around 100. Bad JUJU. Not putting a dime into it till I see if assend is good. Suggestions?

 

[Barking Sands]

Can't do glow plugs hole, it is in a common manifold before valves.

UH OH used old rubber top comp gauge, only makes around 100. Bad JUJU. Not putting a dime into it till I see if assend is good. Suggestions?

You should be able to do either or. This is from the manual. Hopefully when you did your test you had the glow plugs in and the injectors removed OR the injectors in and the glow plugs removed and not both. And whichever you leave installed should be completely installed. And which ever you chose to remove you did so from both cylinders. In the pic below you can see that the injector and glow plugs nearly touch each other inside the precombustion chamber. Both ports should have compression. See picture. Note the piston is at TDC in the drawing

Measuring Compression Pressure To check the compression pressure, follow this procedure:
1. Warm the engine.
2. Remove all the fuel injectors or all the glow plugs from the cylinder block. 3. Disconnect the fuel solenoid from the throttle arm (generator models only).
4. Place the stop lever in the OFF position (propulsion models only).
5. Install a pressure gauge adapter in the first injector hole or glow plug hole to be tested.
6. Connect the pressure gauge to the adapter. MEASURING COMPRESSION PRESSURE
7. Crank the engine with the starter motor until the pressure reaches a maximum value. Read the engine rpm and the pressure gauge when the starter rotation has become stable.
8. Repeat the above procedure for each cylinder.
9. If the compression differs by more than 42.7 psi (3.0 kglcm2) at 200 rpm, then determine the cause of the low pressure, and repair as necessary. NOTE: Do not guess the conditions of other cylinders [rum a result of testing one cylinder. Be sure to measure the compression pressure for each cylinder. Look for cylinders with dramatically (at least 20%) lower compression than the average of the other cylinders. If the weak cylinder is flanked by healthy cylinders, the problem is either valve-or head-gasket related; or very low compression in an adjacent cylinder indicates gasket failure. Abnormally high readings on all cylinders indicate heavy carbon accumulations, a condition that might be accompanied by high pressures and noise.

 

[SIBERNUT]

TKS. It seemed I got air coming out of the other glow plugs hole.
I'll do it again your way, their way, whatever. I'm giving the cylinders a douche with acetone/ATF & letting it soak. Maybe free up rings
BTW, did it w plugs both in & inj out

 

[twistedtree]

TKS. It seemed I got air coming out of the other glow plugs hole.

This doesn’t sound right. There is no common manifold, as you described it earlier. Each glow plug goes directly into the cylinders combustion chamber. Did you try baring over the engine and observing valve movement for each cylinder as suggested earlier? If there is cross flow between cylinders that either the crank and valves are badly miss-timed, or you have a blow head gasket. I still wonder if someone was in the engine before you bought the boat and didn’t put it back together correctly.

 

[SIBERNUT]

Bought it as-is on a garage floor. Yes, I checked valves for clearance, but there is NO mark on the front pulley for TDC on#1. So it's close.
Anything is possible, but it does not look like the head has been off.

The crotch of the situation is whether the assend is good or not. THAT needs to be answered first.

 

[KnotYet]

This engine may well use glow plug(s) to preheat the intake air.
(I've used a hair dryer to do the same thing.)
It may or may not have any in the cylinders.
Conversely, intake valves may be stuck open allowing air to leak past.

 

[twistedtree]

Bought it as-is on a garage floor. Yes, I checked valves for clearance, but there is NO mark on the front pulley for TDC on#1. So it's close.
Anything is possible, but it does not look like the head has been off.

The crotch of the situation is whether the assend is good or not. THAT needs to be answered first.

Do you have the manual? The markings may be on the flywheel. Not sure.

By assend do you mean the generator end? If so, how will you test it without a running motor?

 

[Barking Sands]

This doesn’t sound right. There is no common manifold, as you described it earlier. Each glow plug goes directly into the cylinders combustion chamber.

It sounds like had air out the glow plug hole because both the glow plug and the injector was removed and then the rubber tipped compression gauge was pressed against the injector hole and leaving the small glow plug hole open. The fact the the glow plug hole is small allowed for some compression and the 100 PSI reading.

It would be best if you put the injectors back in fully and used the smaller glow plug hole to do compression. It will be easier to seal a rubber tip on the smaller hole.

Looking at this video to see what a pre combustion chamber looks like. Then after watching the video look at the cross section I posted and you can see the configuration.

 

[Barking Sands]

See the marked up image of his Westerbeke cross section and how the precombustion chamber connects to the regular cylinder combustion chamber.

 

[Barking Sands]

This is very confusing.

Can't do glow plugs hole, it is in a common manifold before valves.

TKS. It seemed I got air coming out of the other glow plugs hole.

BTW, did it w plugs both in & inj out

When you said you cant do glow plug holes in my mind you thought the glow plug holes and injector holes lead to different areas than to a single combustion chamber. So then my assumption is that you did the compression check with the rubber tipped compression gauge pressed into the injector hole but left the glow plug hole open in the same cylinder since you thought they didnt share space.

When you replied that you had air coming out the other glow plug hole I again assumed you mean the other hole in that single cylinder that was left open when doing your check. If this is what you meant then close either the injector or the glow plug hole in the cylinder you are testing and repeat test with the rubber tipped compression gauge in whatever hole remains open.

If you meant you had air coming out the glow plug hole from the adjacent cylinder while preforming the compression test on the cylinder you were testing then this would be normal and desired since relieving the adjacent cylinders compression helps increase rotation speed for a good compression test.

If you could please be more detailed in the descriptions of what you are doing it would be helpful because my pre- Alzheimer's brain is having trouble keeping up :lol:

 

[SIBERNUT]

Fresh start- after it soaks I'll do a compression check both ways. Inj both in and test plug holes. Plugs both in and test inj holes. It's only 2 cyls, any other variations?

 

[Barking Sands]

Fresh start- after it soaks I'll do a compression check both ways. Inj both in and test plug holes. Plugs both in and test inj holes. It's only 2 cyls, any other variations?

Sounds good. If using the rubber tipped nozzle...PRESSS HARD!!
Might have around 450 psi. Maybe you have an assistant to throw the switch so you can apply some real force to the rubber tipped compression tester? It may be hard to hold if you do in fact have good compression. I have held them on 12 to 1 gas motors. But never tried on a 22 to 1 diesel.

 

[SIBERNUT]

Do you have the manual? The markings may be on the flywheel. Not sure.

By assend do you mean the generator end? If so, how will you test it without a running motor?

Uh, that's the question I have been asking
There are no marks on the face of the pulley. Flywheel inaccessible.

 

[SIBERNUT]

To all
Tried a comp check this am. Inj in, plugs out. Plenty air coming out of empty plug hole, but zero comp in hole w gauge. Switched them. Same result. Ok smart asses, now what?
Head gasket?

 

[Barking Sands]

To all
Tried a comp check this am. Inj in, plugs out. Plenty air coming out of empty plug hole, but zero comp in hole w gauge. Switched them. Same result. Ok smart asses, now what?
Head gasket?

Wait a minute. Why did you have an empty hole with air coming out? If you had the injector installed that only leaves 1 other hole...the glow plug hole. The gauge goes onto the glow plug hole to then close ALL holes in that cylinder.

Only the adjacent cylinder will have an open hole but you dont need to even look at that.

 

[SIBERNUT]

Yeah , well it's hard not to look at a hole blowing air at you. I strapped the gauge down with a ratchet strap. Pay attention here- both injectors were IN.
Both glow plugs were OUT. comp gauge in one inj hole . Cranked. Zero on gauge, air blowing out of OTHER inj hole when cranked. Sounds like (at least) head gasket blown between cyls

 

[Barking Sands]

Yeah , well it's hard not to look at a hole blowing air at you. I strapped the gauge down with a ratchet strap. Pay attention here- both injectors were IN.
Both glow plugs were OUT. comp gauge in one inj hole . Cranked. Zero on gauge, air blowing out of OTHER inj hole when cranked. Sounds like (at least) head gasket blown between cyls

OK brother. I am paying attention now.

Pay attention here- both injectors were IN.
Both glow plugs were OUT.

comp gauge in one inj hole .

Did you mean to say that the compression gauge was in the glow plug hole? Because in the first sentence you said both injectors were in. Cant install the compression gauge in an injector hole with an injector in it. Please clarify.

Cranked. Zero on gauge, air blowing out of OTHER inj hole when cranked.

What other hole? If you are talking about the adjacent cylinder dont worry about that. There should be no open holes in the cylinder you are testing.

Sounds like (at least) head gasket blown between cyls

It does not sound like a blown gasket between the two cylinders from the info you provide here. If you have both injectors fully installed on both cylinders and both glow plug holes open, and you plug one cylinders glow plug hole with the compression gauge it would be completely normal for the opposing cylinder to have a MASSIVE amount of air coming out of the opposing cylinders open glow plug hole because the opposing cylinders piston is pumping and attempting to compress air as well.

If you were doing a leakdown test in a particular cylinder with shop air and you had air coming out the opposing cylinder glow plug hole then THAT would be evidence of a blown head gasket.

You may well have a blown head gasket. But so far from your responses I am just not sure the compression test is being done right. And with parts for this particularly rare model being so scarce and expensive I would want to check, double check and then think about it, and then triple check all these troubleshooting items prior to disassembly.

You say you got 0 psi on the compression test. There is only one time I ever got 0 on a compression test. That was on an Onan twin cylinder opposed gas motor in a small tractor I purchased on a whim. Dang thing still ran half way decent. Got it home and started troubleshooting thinking ignition. Well after fixing the ignition issue still no luck. Noticed with the plug out very little air coming out plug hole. Hooked up compression gauge and got just a bump on the needle (from opposing cylinders windage into oil pan) Pulled off the head and there was no piston at all:lol:

It was in the bottom of the oil pan

Other than that, when you get 0 on a compression test you should suspect your process or equipment. Blown head gaskets and stuck rings still get some amount of compression, especially on an engine that should see 450 psi. I have had gauges, especially if using the rubber tip that would not allow air in due to blockage or squeezing of the rubber tip too tight or the check valve sticking. In that case you take your compression tester and get it to register on a known good air source until you are satisfied and then repeat the test on the motor.

Anyways..I hope I am not leading you astray. Pulling it apart for inspection is certainly an option. But I was hoping to see you get some solid, repeatable data via a compression test or a leakdown test that might help guide the process. Good luck brother.

FYI- On the generator end there are several tests in the manual to check serviceability of the large expensive parts using an ohm meter.

 

[SIBERNUT]

If the glow plug in a chamber is in the cylinder (not in common manifold like my Onan) , when the piston comes up it should show compression. The injector is in. Gauge does not move at all. Other cyl injector is in. Plug is out. Lots of air coming out. Now if the glow plug was in a common manifold BEFORE the cyl I can see that. But the diagram you sent doesn't show that. I can't explain it any better than that.
A head gasket is $100, and it appears this is not a Mitsi.

I'm more a mechanic than an electrician, so don't tell me the gen end "can" be tested . Just tell me how to do it. THEN I'll decide to pull the head or not. And while you're at it. 'splain why the 2 glow plug holes are connected. Neither the 2 intake valves or the 2 exhausts should be open same time to form a connection between cyls thru the manifs at the plug holes
I'll betcha a little Napalm would fix this POS.

 

[Barking Sands]

If the glow plug in a chamber is in the cylinder (not in common manifold like my Onan) , when the piston comes up it should show compression. The injector is in. Gauge does not move at all. Other cyl injector is in. Plug is out. Lots of air coming out. Now if the glow plug was in a common manifold BEFORE the cyl I can see that. But the diagram you sent doesn't show that. I can't explain it any better than that.
A head gasket is $100, and it appears this is not a Mitsi.

I'm more a mechanic than an electrician, so don't tell me the gen end "can" be tested . Just tell me how to do it. THEN I'll decide to pull the head or not. And while you're at it. 'splain why the 2 glow plug holes are connected. Neither the 2 intake valves or the 2 exhausts should be open same time to form a connection between cyls thru the manifs at the plug holes
I'll betcha a little Napalm would fix this POS.

What makes you think the glow plug holes are connected?

 

[SIBERNUT]

When I plug one w the gauge, air comes out at the other. With my finger on one( not gauge) I feel nothing. So tell me why I see compression using the inj holes on each cyl (maybe 100 lbs) with the glow plugs in?

 

[Barking Sands]

When I plug one w the gauge, air comes out at the other. With my finger on one( not gauge) I feel nothing. So tell me why I see compression using the inj holes on each cyl (maybe 100 lbs) with the glow plugs in?

Ok..maybe this will help if we get a look at some actual parts. These are pictures from Ebay of some W13 Westerbeke 4.4 parts that have been for sale for years..lol. In one pic you can see the location of the injector hole and glow plug hole. You can also see the precombustion chamber exit on the backside of the chamber.
The next pic is the cylinder head from the opposite side and you can see the precombistion chamber exit clearly. Note there is no opening for the glow plug. Just a machining hole thats been filled. The only common manifold that I am aware of is the common space of the precombustion chamber which is common to 1 injector and 1 glow plug with no other holes but with an exit to the top of the piston. As a matter of fact if you put in the glow plug and remove the injector you might be able to actually see the glow plug tip
Or pull both and shine pen light into the glow plug hole and confirm light visible from the injector hole.

Last pic is one of a mitsubishi k2c head gasket. If you note the pattern is the same as the Westerbeke head photos. It is a Mitsubishi K2c.

***some pics may be out of order***

 

[Barking Sands]

Fyi..dont buy that gasket I screen shotted from ebay. They want 300 to ship..lol

 

[Barking Sands]

One other thing. How on the heck did you ratchet strap a rubber tipped hand held compression tester to the engine. Please send pictures. I always used two hands, some odd position and turn the key with my toes (or just get my wife..lol)

 

[SIBERNUT]

Here's a pic of you can blow it up.
I'll check it out, but all the things cast into the block do not indicate that.
We are copulating with a dead horse (power, literally) here.
Let's set the engine aside. I have to determine if the gen end is good before I put another dime or minute in the power part. If there is a way, let's hear it. I already broke a socket trying it with an air wrench.

 

[Barking Sands]

Thanks for the pic. 2 things
1) it does not look like those injectors are completely in the hole all the way and seated. Hard to tell though.
2) there is about a 100% chance that the gauge is now broken..lol. or at the very least that the needle is impinged from traveling freely. As a matter of fact it appears the needle is well below zero.

I just saw Harbor freight had a diesel compression tester with all the various glow plug fittings. It might be a good idea to pick one of those up. It would make it easier. And you could probably use it in the future.

 

[SIBERNUT]

A knowledgeable friend and I are still flogging this thing not starting. Found several small things, but none affecting a start. Fuel system apart, and even tho I could swear I saw injectors vaporizing, not happening now. PLENTY of fuel being delivered to inj pump (note- not priming pump its ok). Cam followers move freely. No fuel being ejected from pump top on cranking, and of course not to injectors. Gonna look up a blowup of the fuel inj pump unless someone has it handy it is a 4.4 BCD 2 cyl.