Water Maker options

[lwarden]

Thanks for the warm welcome. Good to see you. Did you get the new boat home safe and sound?

Yes, came down on a truck in May. Not a scratch on it.

(Sorry for the derail)

 

[Simi 60]

Article here on acidic water from RO

https://www.123filter.com/ac/why-re... absorbs CO2 from,a solution of carbonic acid.

 

[OldDan1943]

Article here on acidic water from RO

https://www.123filter.com/ac/why-re... absorbs CO2 from,a solution of carbonic acid.

I will admit, I skimmed the article.
If RO is hungry for 'minerals' then I guess we have to choose the minerals to make it healthy at least in the kitchen sink.
How do we accomplish this?

 

[Hippocampus]

Just finished recommissioning the SeaRecovery. Right at the machine you put in an element that looks just like a typical filter but it’s job is to remineralize the output water and ensure proper pH. Suspect other brands have the same thing as that element looks pretty generic.

 

[OldDan1943]

Just finished recommissioning the SeaRecovery. Right at the machine you put in an element that looks just like a typical filter but it’s job is to remineralize the output water and ensure proper pH. Suspect other brands have the same thing as that element looks pretty generic.

Any idea what the pH is at the galley sink?
Also the part number of the filter cartridge you mentioned?

 

[Simi 60]

Any idea what the pH is at the galley sink?
Also the part number of the filter cartridge you mentioned?

OMNIPURE - K2551 Calcite/Corosex Water Filter is the one I am looking at
$50 plus delivery each in Oz
$15 in the US - but freight was friggen insane
$30 inc delivery to Oz from Israel of all places

The ones that go in a housing are $85 each here
https://mywaterfilter.com.au/produc...iCGULmOsm33V-PI-u34I2qiqPXGmG73TvCQfr4Os38f5Y


Always said I never wanted a bloody watermaker
5 years using tap water and never an issue
Spend a couple of grand buying an RO and had my hand in my pocket ever since
KISS

 

[OldDan1943]

OMNIPURE - K2551 Calcite/Corosex Water Filter is the one I am looking at
$50 plus delivery each in Oz
$15 in the US - but freight was friggen insane
$30 inc delivery to Oz from Israel of all places

The ones that go in a housing are $85 each here
https://mywaterfilter.com.au/produc...iCGULmOsm33V-PI-u34I2qiqPXGmG73TvCQfr4Os38f5Y


Always said I never wanted a bloody watermaker
5 years using tap water and never an issue
Spend a couple of grand buying an RO and had my hand in my pocket ever since
KISS

Thank you for the information.
The price of the cartridge does seem to be expensive.
I wonder if a carbon filter would accomplish the same things.

 

[Simi 60]

Thank you for the information.
The price of the cartridge does seem to be expensive.
I wonder if a carbon filter would accomplish the same things.

Tried one to get rid of the rust colour and it worked well for a day or 2
At $10 a pop not doing that.

 

[Hippocampus]

Carbon does get rid of the last bit of chlorine if you let shore water sit and off gas it for ~1 week but doesn’t add any minerals nor does it change the pH. The mineralization filters adds minerals then there’s little or no absorption of CO2 from the air so no acid production. You easily get to neutral Ph of ~7. I paid $30 for an extra. Should last ~6m. It’s the 10u paper filters you replace more often. They’re generic and cheap.
Beyond RO also have a General Ecology filter on its own spigot in this boat at the galley sink for drinking water. It’s $126 and good for ~1000g. Still cheaper than buying bottled water and no bottles to fill up the garbage cans. Shore water run through it tastes wonderful.

 

[ksanders]

Carbon does get rid of the last bit of chlorine if you let shore water sit and off gas it for ~1 week but doesn’t add any minerals nor does it change the pH. The mineralization filters adds minerals then there’s little or no absorption of CO2 from the air so no acid production. You easily get to neutral Ph of ~7. I paid $30 for an extra. Should last ~6m. It’s the 10u paper filters you replace more often. They’re generic and cheap.
Beyond RO also have a General Ecology filter on its own spigot in this boat at the galley sink for drinking water. It’s $126 and good for ~1000g. Still cheaper than buying bottled water and no bottles to fill up the garbage cans. Shore water run through it tastes wonderful.

I like the idea of a "filter" to add back minerals. I'll be looking into that as an addition as I drink RO water all the time.

 

[grahamdouglass]

This discussion about water makers got really complicated

Talking to the guys around the club that have water makers, nobody mentioned all the water chemistry involved. My boat neighbour visits his boat a couple of days a week to escape his wife and and drink his scotch. He uses his water maker exclusively, drawing water from Vancouver harbour. He has never pickled it and couldn't recall the make of it when I asked him about it.

I was thinking about installing one, now I'm not too sure. I don't think it can be as complicated as this discussion makes it out to be.

It's kind of like what type of oil is best for your engine. Is a 40 year old engine really that picky as long as it is changed? Or the lure to catch your fish. Are fish that smart? I think simplicity is overlooked in doing simple things.

 

[socalrider]

Talking to the guys around the club that have water makers, nobody mentioned all the water chemistry involved. My boat neighbour visits his boat a couple of days a week to escape his wife and and drink his scotch. He uses his water maker exclusively, drawing water from Vancouver harbour. He has never pickled it and couldn't recall the make of it when I asked him about it.

I was thinking about installing one, now I'm not too sure. I don't think it can be as complicated as this discussion makes it out to be.

It's kind of like what type of oil is best for your engine. Is a 40 year old engine really that picky as long as it is changed? Or the lure to catch your fish. Are fish that smart? I think simplicity is overlooked in doing simple things.

You don't need to pickle the water maker if you use it regularly - like every few days. If you let it sit for more than 5+ days it'll start to grow stuff & your produced water will stink and taste crappy.

I'd not have a water maker on board if I could get by without it. But for us, with 5-7 people on board for 6 weeks each summer and few water refilling options it's a real game changer and the expense, complexity & maintenance are worth it. Even more so if you live aboard and are regularly using it (and your home port waters are clean).

 

[Hippocampus]

Hydrocarbons in the water ruin the membrane. Carbon prefiltering helps some. You can use shore fresh water to back flush the membrane. Most AC units have a setting to allow this to be done automatically off your tank. . That means if you’re on a dock and can add fresh water to your tank you don’t need to pickle. However if you’re out of the water you may need to pickle. Either because of cold or lack of access to fresh water to keep your tanks full.
One of the advantages of DC systems is they’re so much smaller. Yes you need to run them longer to get sufficient water. But pickling is a trivial thing to do. Also you can make water off your batteries. Currently have a large output AC unit. Really miss the prior boats DC Cape Horn extreme. Anytime we’re anchored out on goes the watermaker. Pickling was simple. A 5 gallon bucket and either 100RV potable water antifreeze or add a packet of their chemical to water. Cleaning the membrane was equally easy. To do the current machine need 11 g and back flushing uses a lot more water. When this one dies will go back to DC. May build it from generic components or do another Spectra. Prefer mechanical rather than electronic control. Have had trouble with the electronics.

 

[Mako]

"May build it from generic components or do another Spectra. Prefer mechanical rather than electronic control."

That approach will probably become more attractive, especially as more boaters adopt 48v house banks. 48vdc motors may all bridging the gap between DC convenience and AC output.

 

[TheBigWhit]

Talking to the guys around the club that have water makers, nobody mentioned all the water chemistry involved. My boat neighbour visits his boat a couple of days a week to escape his wife and and drink his scotch. He uses his water maker exclusively, drawing water from Vancouver harbour. He has never pickled it and couldn't recall the make of it when I asked him about it.

I was thinking about installing one, now I'm not too sure. I don't think it can be as complicated as this discussion makes it out to be.

It's kind of like what type of oil is best for your engine. Is a 40 year old engine really that picky as long as it is changed? Or the lure to catch your fish. Are fish that smart? I think simplicity is overlooked in doing simple things.

Flushing and sterilizing an RO is to avoid biological growth and fouling of the membranes. The cooler the water and ambient temp the slower the bio growth. What you can get away with in Vancouver is very different from the tropics.

Back when a 2.5” x 40” membrane cost $1,500 each, folks were more concerned with maintenance. Now the same membrane is $350 and many folks opt to replace membranes vs chemical clean.

 

[PM]

800 gallons of tankage? That is a LOT!

If you don't like the smell, taste or color of the tank water there is a much cheaper option. Get a home distiller. They run from about $100 to over $500 on Amazon. Mine is a middle of the road unit which does a gallon in a few hours. The water that comes out of it is crystal clear and wonderful tasting. We use it for drinking, coffee, tea lemonade and all cooking. In the winter we fill the "cool mist" humidifier with distilled water.

So far we have not taken it on the boat but we do transport distilled water to use on the boat. Our boating excursions are usually about "six gallons long".

The drawback, of course is that you will need 120 volts but on a boat your size I'm thinking 120 volts may always be available.

I don't think it would work real well to desalinate water but it will make your tank water beautiful and delicious.

pete

 

[tiltrider1]

Water makers are actually very simple. What makes them complicated are the multiple number of simple process that are chained together.

You need water. It needs to be cleaned of particulates. It needs to be compressed. The good water needs to be tested. When you are done the membranes needs to be flushed. Every 7 days the membrane should be reflushed. For long term storage watermaker should be pickled.

The more steps you keep manual the simpler the system, the more chance for human error. The more automated, the less chance for error but greater risk of catastrophic failure.

That said, my WM is fully automatic. Is used once a year and has been functioning for over 10 years with no maintenance(except the occasional change of primary filter).

 

[ksanders]

I use my watermaker every day and have used it every day for several years.

I use it in the harbor.
I use it at sea.

It never gets flushed with fresh water unless I am leaving the boat for a few days.

Membranes for me last around three years of every day use. Low pressure pumps last around a year. I have a rebuild kit for my high pressure pump but have never touched it.

I change the pre filters when need be. I wash out the 20 micron one and just change the 5 micron one.

There is a lot of incorrect information out there in the land of rumor on the internet regarding watermakers, there use, etc...

 

[RickyD]

Talking to the guys around the club that have water makers, nobody mentioned all the water chemistry involved. My boat neighbour visits his boat a couple of days a week to escape his wife and and drink his scotch. He uses his water maker exclusively, drawing water from Vancouver harbour. He has never pickled it and couldn't recall the make of it when I asked him about it.

I was thinking about installing one, now I'm not too sure. I don't think it can be as complicated as this discussion makes it out to be.

It's kind of like what type of oil is best for your engine. Is a 40 year old engine really that picky as long as it is changed? Or the lure to catch your fish. Are fish that smart? I think simplicity is overlooked in doing simple things.

Sorry if I'm jumping in with so many posts before me but I have changed the way I use my water maker. When I bought the boat it was unused for a couple years and pickled. I flushed it and started using it occasionally offshore but then there was the requirement to re-flush it regularly. The last two years I have decided to refill my on board water tanks only from the water maker. So, I run my old Sea Recovery 600gpd unit until my tank is totally full. Then I open up the flush line from my fresh water system and flush the salt water our of the uptake line. Then I shut off the sea cock and, being careful not to exceed the recommended maximum of 35psi incoming pressure, I begin to flush the rest of the system and filters. I turn on the water maker and run it on the pure water from my tank until my LEDs read pure water and I shut it down. Pure water inhibits bacterial growth because there is very little to live on. So now I have no problem drinking from the tap and I don't have to worry about frequent flushing or pickling. Pickling and chemical flushing will degrade the membranes.

If you want to read on, here is more. My system has the very large pre-filters provided by Sea Recovery. One for particulates and one for hydrocarbons. Then there is the low pressure supply pump, then high pressure pump into the membranes. After the membranes there is a carbon filter as the water enters the tank. There is also a carbon filter for the flush cycle if I were to use dock water for flushing as I used to. Oh, of course the system has a water quality sensor that only opens the gate to the on board water tank when water quality is good. One other positive for pure water in the tank: I used to have low water pressure at the galley sink. The stream or spray function seemed to be clogged a bit. I soaked it in CLR but there was no change. I was just living with it as a new spray module was $80. After running only pure water in my tank for several months, that water dissolved the blockage and now I have great pressure!!

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I have a Cruise RO watermaker. 40gph. Love it.

 

[Simi 60]

At the end of the day the main componentry are a high pressure pump and some membranes.
I doubt any watermaker "manufacturer" makes them


Ours is an Interpump hp pump and DOW membranes
Puts out 150 lph/40gph

 

[slowgoesit]

Simi, what is your water temperature? Our 150 lph/40gph Seawaterpro is rated thus with ambient water temperature of 25 Celsius / 77 Fahrenheit.

With a water temp here in Puget Sound of say 50 degrees Fahrenheit (10 C), our measured output is around 28 to 30 gph, (106 to 113 litres/hr)
Put another way, we hold 520 gallons of fresh water. Starting with bone dry tanks, we can fill them to overflowing in less than 18 hours (measured 8.3 amps, 120vac, or around 150ah) here in the cold PNW. 13 hours in Florida waters . . .

Not too shabby! That and solar kind of make me feel like Prometheus!

Note: JMHO, LiFePO4 batteries, Solar technology, and Watermakers are total game changers for full time cruisers! Oops, NOW I done it. . .

 

[Mambo42]

I like the idea of a "filter" to add back minerals. I'll be looking into that as an addition as I drink RO water all the time.

Adding the minerals back into the water is actually quite a complicated process.

RO water is indeed empty water, there are no minerals in it at all and drinking that water can actually be dangerous if that is the only thing you drink. Your body needs the minerals and it is not getting any from RO water.
Water companies that work with RO use a 6 or 7 step process to put minerals back into the water and that also needs to be done in the correct levels, it is not a matter of just adding something.

RO water is indeed safe for drinking as it is not poisonous, but you need the minerals, so perhaps start taking pills that can give you the daily dosage of minerals, so that you get that back up to speed again.

 

[GoneDiving]

Adding the minerals back into the water is actually quite a complicated process.

I'm wondering if adding rainwater capture mitigates that to some extent?? Obviously only during wet season

 

[Simi 60]

Adding the minerals back into the water is actually quite a complicated process.

RO water is indeed empty water, there are no minerals in it at all and drinking that water can actually be dangerous if that is the only thing you drink. Your body needs the minerals and it is not getting any from RO water.
Water companies that work with RO use a 6 or 7 step process to put minerals back into the water and that also needs to be done in the correct levels, it is not a matter of just adding something.

RO water is indeed safe for drinking as it is not poisonous, but you need the minerals, so perhaps start taking pills that can give you the daily dosage of minerals, so that you get that back up to speed again.

Yeah, I hear people say that but if you aren't getting enough vitamins and minerals from your food diet you're doing something wrong imho

And while it may strip all minerals from it when you first put in new membranes what about when they age a bit?
We currently have a TDS around 420 and won't consider replacement until in the 800's.

 

[RickyD]

Adding the minerals back into the water is actually quite a complicated process.

RO water is indeed empty water, there are no minerals in it at all and drinking that water can actually be dangerous if that is the only thing you drink. Your body needs the minerals and it is not getting any from RO water.
Water companies that work with RO use a 6 or 7 step process to put minerals back into the water and that also needs to be done in the correct levels, it is not a matter of just adding something.

RO water is indeed safe for drinking as it is not poisonous, but you need the minerals, so perhaps start taking pills that can give you the daily dosage of minerals, so that you get that back up to speed again.

Well RO water has varying degrees of other minerals as evidenced by varying conductivity measurements. But....that very pure water is somewhat corrosive as water is considered a universal solvent. You have heard that nature abhors a vacuum, similarly water abhors purity and seeks to dissolve what it can. I think I must get all the minerals I need because I drink RO water on the boat and at home, but I do eat a lot of food. Some drinking water companies, I would propose, add minerals for flavor rather than health. If I buy water at the store it is drinking water not distilled. I found this on the internet:

The additives being put into water are those naturally found in water and the quantities of these additives are likely too small to be of much significance. “If you had pure water by itself, it doesn’t have any taste,” says Bob Mahler, Soil Science and Water Quality professor at the University of Idaho. “So companies that sell bottled water will put in calcium, magnesium or maybe a little bit of salt.”

 

[Simi 60]

Simi, what is your water temperature? Our 150 lph/40gph Seawaterpro is rated thus with ambient water temperature of 25 Celsius / 77 Fahrenheit.

With a water temp here in Puget Sound of say 50 degrees Fahrenheit (10 C), our measured output is around 28 to 30 gph, (106 to 113 litres/hr)
:

Water temp where we cruise ranges between 17c and 25c

 

[Mambo42]

Well RO water has varying degrees of other minerals as evidenced by varying conductivity measurements. But....that very pure water is somewhat corrosive as water is considered a universal solvent. You have heard that nature abhors a vacuum, similarly water abhors purity and seeks to dissolve what it can. I think I must get all the minerals I need because I drink RO water on the boat and at home, but I do eat a lot of food. Some drinking water companies, I would propose, add minerals for flavor rather than health. If I buy water at the store it is drinking water not distilled. I found this on the internet:

The additives being put into water are those naturally found in water and the quantities of these additives are likely too small to be of much significance. “If you had pure water by itself, it doesn’t have any taste,” says Bob Mahler, Soil Science and Water Quality professor at the University of Idaho. “So companies that sell bottled water will put in calcium, magnesium or maybe a little bit of salt.”

As long as you get your required minerals in your body via a different way, such as food or pills you will be in good shape. Then you don't need to worry.

But it would be a problem if you don't get your minerals in a different way, then it is actually a health hazard. The WHO actually warns about it. Reason is quite simple, in Africa most of the drinking water is produced via RO and many people don't have access to healthy balanced food.
I did a packaged ice project about 14 years ago for a RO water company in Ghana and they do add the minerals again, just for that reason, before they package the water in plastic sachets of 250 and 500 ml.

Most water companies in the West, that work with RO, therefore also add the minerals again once the water goes through the filter and then they test the water. Only then will the bottle it or send it through the pipes.

So if you have a balanced food intake during the day then you should be fine.

 

[Mambo42]

Yeah, I hear people say that but if you aren't getting enough vitamins and minerals from your food diet you're doing something wrong imho

And while it may strip all minerals from it when you first put in new membranes what about when they age a bit?
We currently have a TDS around 420 and won't consider replacement until in the 800's.

You are right. We in the West should be able to get our minerals through our food as well, but it might be possible that someone is out at sea for a long time e.g on sailing vessels. They may run out of fresh vegetables, resort to canned food of a lower quality and then you could quickly run into a vitamin deficiency or mineral deficiency.
We don't make long passages, are always near the coast, so steady access to fresh food, in other words I don't worry about it. The only problem is I don't like the taste, so use it for cooking and cleaning only, but e.g our coffee or tea and our drinking water is just bottled water. Bit of a hassle to bring the bottles on board and to dispose of them, but we simply don't like the taste of RO water.

And it might be possible to get some minerals back through an old filter. Problem is that you don't know which minerals that are and how much you get back.

 

[Circumnavigator]

I don't understand the comments about a lack of minerals in RO water. I'm pretty sure that you are confusing RO water with distilled water. RO units typically found on boats have outputs with several hundred parts per million of total dissolved solids. There is no safety issue with drinking RO water -- indeed there is no safety issue with drinking water that is much purer than typical RO water. US Navy submarines typically gave their crews distilled water for drinking with TDS of 3 ppm.


When we were sailing around the world, we carefully drank only our own RO water whenever we were not ashore overnight. We never filled our tanks from shore. Sometimes we went for months without drinking any other water. It was possibly the healthiest three years of our lives.



See https://wcponline.com/2019/07/15/reverse-osmosis-drinking-water-the-myths-and-the-facts/ for a comprehensive discussion of this issue.


Jim