Vacuflush Toilets

[syjos]

And if there is a problem with a macerating head it is straight forward, not chasing vacuum leaks for years...

A knowledgeable, skilled owner doesn't chase leaks for years.

If installed properly, a VF will not have leaks for at least 10 - 15 years.

My company installed a lot of VF systems and we don't encounter vacuume leaks.

And if we got hired to find and fix leaks, an hour or two is all that was necessary. And most of the time, an hour would suffice.

We worked on modern grinders too, and the small space required to fit everything into the toilet base was a PITA to access. We usually had to remove the toilet and serviced them on the dock since my guys had large hands.

 

[Comodave]

Even when my ME head gets old it has nowhere near the complexity of a VF system. I have a head with a macerator and a hose to the holding tank. I won’t ever be looking for a vacuum leak for years as others here have. Sure in many years the macerator may go bad but diagnosing the problem may take a few minutes and replacing the entire head would be less than $700. One person on this thread has spent $1000 and it still isn’t fixed, won’t hold vacuum.

 

[Dougcole]

A knowledgeable, skilled owner doesn't chase leaks for years.

If installed properly, a VF will not have leaks for at least 10 - 15 years.

My company installed a lot of VF systems and we don't encounter vacuume leaks.

And if we got hired to find and fix leaks, an hour or two is all that was necessary. And most of the time, an hour would suffice.

We worked on modern grinders too, and the small space required to fit everything into the toilet base was a PITA to access. We usually had to remove the toilet and serviced them on the dock since my guys had large hands.

I’d consider myself more knowledgeable and hands on than 85% of the boat owners out there and I’ve been chasing leaks for years. The biggest VF dealer/service provider in the largest boating state in the country worked on my system and still hasn’t fixed the leaks.

 

[tiltrider1]

I have read that you stripped a screw and you replaced it with a bolt instead of replacing the part. I can only assume that this is your standard maintenance practice. Instead of throwing parts at the problem it’s time for true diagnostics. It starts with a vacuum gauge as shown in an earlier post. You start at the vacuum generator, you jump the motor until you get to factory specified vacuum and the you wait to see if it bleeds off. If it does, you have an issue with the vacuum generator. If not then you reconnect the hose and move to the hose right before it connects to the vacuum tank and repeat the process. Eventually you will have isolated the component that leaks.

The hardest vacuum leak I ever dealt with was caused by a bronze fitting that had a pin hole leak. This fitting was 30 years old and lived in a bilge space that prevent me from doing the shaving cream test.

Now if this had been a macerater system the boat would have stunk instead of a pump cycling every hour.

Again, both systems have there pros and cons. Both systems are not right for every boat or every customer.

 

[syjos]

I have read that you stripped a screw and you replaced it with a bolt instead of replacing the part. I can only assume that this is your standard maintenance practice. Instead of throwing parts at the problem it’s time for true diagnostics. It starts with a vacuum gauge as shown in an earlier post. You start at the vacuum generator, you jump the motor until you get to factory specified vacuum and the you wait to see if it bleeds off. If it does, you have an issue with the vacuum generator. If not then you reconnect the hose and move to the hose right before it connects to the vacuum tank and repeat the process. Eventually you will have isolated the component that leaks.

The hardest vacuum leak I ever dealt with was caused by a bronze fitting that had a pin hole leak. This fitting was 30 years old and lived in a bilge space that prevent me from doing the shaving cream test.

Now if this had been a macerater system the boat would have stunk instead of a pump cycling every hour.

Again, both systems have there pros and cons. Both systems are not right for every boat or every customer.

A knowledgeable, capable VF owner!

 

[Dougcole]

I have read that you stripped a screw and you replaced it with a bolt instead of replacing the part. I can only assume that this is your standard maintenance practice. Instead of throwing parts at the problem it’s time for true diagnostics. It starts with a vacuum gauge as shown in an earlier post. You start at the vacuum generator, you jump the motor until you get to factory specified vacuum and the you wait to see if it bleeds off. If it does, you have an issue with the vacuum generator. If not then you reconnect the hose and move to the hose right before it connects to the vacuum tank and repeat the process. Eventually you will have isolated the component that leaks.

The hardest vacuum leak I ever dealt with was caused by a bronze fitting that had a pin hole leak. This fitting was 30 years old and lived in a bilge space that prevent me from doing the shaving cream test.

Now if this had been a macerater system the boat would have stunk instead of a pump cycling every hour.

Again, both systems have there pros and cons. Both systems are not right for every boat or every customer.

Well, you didn't read very closely before you decided to be an a$$hole. Perhaps reading comprehension isn't your thing. Either way, that is the rudest thing I've ever read on the TF.



I didn't say that I stripped a screw, I said it had a stripped screw. The screw was stripped when I bought the boat, I have been nursing it for years, every time I changed the duckbills. I worked around that issue by through bolting it.



Secondly, my system is not the one you describe. The pump and the tank are all one unit, it looks like this:


https://www.seabreeze-industries.com.au/products/Sealand-VG4-J-Series-Vacuum-Generator-541.htm


I've already isolated the leak to the tank, that is pretty clear if you had just read through my posts rather than popping off like a pompous jerk.


Also, I clearly said, (there's that reading thing that you aren't very good at again), that I was in the Bahamas when this issue popped up and I had to do most of the diagnostic work. I didn't have access to a vacuum gauge, I had to work with what I had on hand.



The tank doesn't hold vacuum. The shaving cream trick doesn't seem to be working with my tank. Though it would be easier to use than a plug, what good would a vacuum gauge be at this point.


Submerging it in a tank of water is pretty good idea, though it involves rigging up some special equipment as well.


Anyway, I appreciate the people in this post that have genuinely tried to help.

 

[tiltrider1]

So you went to the Bahamas with a system that had a bad part that you had been nursing for years. That says a lot about your maintenance attitude.

Go ahead call me names. That shows more about you.

I now think I understand why the dealer didn’t solve your problem.

 

[Dougcole]

So you went to the Bahamas with a system that had a bad part that you had been nursing for years. That says a lot about your maintenance attitude.

Go ahead call me names. That shows more about you.

I now think I understand why the dealer didn’t solve your problem.

This is insane. You started this by being very insulting. Perhaps I shouldn't have reacted, but you are the one who is in the wrong here. The only reason you made a comment about my maintenance routine, which you couldn't possibly know anything about as you have never stepped foot aboard my boat, is because your feelings are hurt because I'm not a fan of the sanitation system that you happen to own.



The idea that I don't take care of my boat is laughable. You can scroll through my posts on this board and tell that I take very, very good care of it.

 

[Peter B]

Ok, Guys....please cool it. No need to be insulting, either way. Remember the 'be nice' rule.

 

[BrianG]

I've heard they're a headache. But my research is a limited sample and neither peer-reviewed nor pier-reviewed.

 

[Dwk]

"Ok, Guys....please cool it. No need to be insulting, either way. Remember the 'be nice' rule." I agree! My lord why get so excited, rude... it's a toilet!

 

[Dougcole]

For my part, I apologize to the mods for losing my temper and to tiltrider or anyone I offended for calling him an a$$hole.


In the spirit of just the facts, I went back and reviewed my maintenance log (I do keep one of those, LOL) and here are the details of what I have spent on my VF system since I bought the boat in 2013. Perhaps this is out of line with typical VF costs, like I said, I could own a lemon. At this stage the only original parts are the throne itself and the motor, which thankfully I have not had to replace as they are more than $500.



I'll let each person who reads this thread make up their mind. Perhaps someone with a ME or Sea Era or similar type macerator head could post their log and costs over a similar period?





2" Duckbill set (4x) $180

Ball/pedal kit, (1) $50
Bowl Seal kit (3x) $118
Bellows kit (2) $198

Base Cover (1) $45
Floor Flange seal, w/bolts (1) $26
Funnel Kit (1) $42
Pressure Switch (1) $189

Toilet seat (1) $63
Pressure tank, dealer refurb, (1) $150
O ring kit (1) $24

Labor, in shop, by factory approved dealer, $150


Total cost, $1,172

 

[syjos]

2" Duckbill set (4x) $180
Ball/pedal kit, (1) $50
Bowl Seal kit (3x) $118
Bellows kit (2) $198
Base Cover (1) $45
Floor Flange seal, w/bolts (1) $26
Funnel Kit (1) $42
Pressure Switch (1) $189
Toilet seat (1) $63
Pressure tank, dealer refurb, (1) $150
O ring kit (1) $24

Labor, in shop, by factory approved dealer, $150

Total cost, $1,172

You have been paying a lot more for parts, A lot more than I charge for the same parts.

For example, I charge:

$25 for a pair of duckbills

$100 for a VG4 pressure switch

$130 for a complete VG4 rebuild kit - bellows kit, 4 duck bills and gaskets

$100 for a complete toilet rebuild kit - ball pedal kit, water valve, bowl seals and gaskets

 

[Comodave]

For my part, I apologize to the mods for losing my temper and to tiltrider or anyone I offended for calling him an a$$hole.


In the spirit of just the facts, I went back and reviewed my maintenance log (I do keep one of those, LOL) and here are the details of what I have spent on my VF system since I bought the boat in 2013. Perhaps this is out of line with typical VF costs, like I said, I could own a lemon. At this stage the only original parts are the throne itself and the motor, which thankfully I have not had to replace as they are more than $500.



I'll let each person who reads this thread make up their mind. Perhaps someone with a ME or Sea Era or similar type macerator head could post their log and costs over a similar period?





2" Duckbill set (4x) $180

Ball/pedal kit, (1) $50
Bowl Seal kit (3x) $118
Bellows kit (2) $198

Base Cover (1) $45
Floor Flange seal, w/bolts (1) $26
Funnel Kit (1) $42
Pressure Switch (1) $189

Toilet seat (1) $63
Pressure tank, dealer refurb, (1) $150
O ring kit (1) $24

Labor, in shop, by factory approved dealer, $150


Total cost, $1,172

I have had ME heads in 3 boats and never had to do any maintenance on them. Maybe if I had kept the boats for a longer time I would have had to do some maintenance on them but for the prices you are showing, I would have just replaced the head for about $700.

 

[catalinajack]

+1 and save a lot of time to boot.

I have had ME heads in 3 boats and never had to do any maintenance on them. Maybe if I had kept the boats for a longer time I would have had to do some maintenance on them but for the prices you are showing, I would have just replaced the head for about $700.

 

[Dougcole]

You have been paying a lot more for parts, A lot more than I charge for the same parts.

For example, I charge:

$25 for a pair of duckbills

$100 for a VG4 pressure switch

$130 for a complete VG4 rebuild kit - bellows kit, 4 duck bills and gaskets

$100 for a complete toilet rebuild kit - ball pedal kit, water valve, bowl seals and gaskets

Thank you for the information.


There are four two inch duckbills in my toilet, I've seen them sold in packs of four and packs of two. When you say $25 for a pair of duckbills, I assume that means two duckbills, not two packs of two? My figure is for four packs of four duckbills, or 22.50 per pair.


Same for the bowl seals, I've replaced them three times in seven years (they were bad when we bought the boat), at a cost of $40 each.


Looks like I way overpaid for the pressure switch, for sure.


One thing I realize I did wrong was to not take advantage of the rebuild kits. I replaced parts in more of a piece meal fashion. I could have saved a little money with the kits.


My expenditures worked out to under $200 a year. Though that is still expensive for taking care of a head, it's not going to break the bank and I could live with it.



My big issue is that for all of that my system still doesn't work correctly and really never has. Looking back at my log, I think there were times when I was close to getting it, especially last year after I had EM rebuild the vacuum generator and tank. But I think when I got one thing fixed another leak popped up. It was the pedal shaft after the generator was fixed. I fixed the shaft and now something on the generator is leaking again.


I truly say this in a respectful way, but you have to understand that that is frustrating. Maybe I'm just cursed.

 

[Main Attraction]

When It Comes to Heads

We have two heads on our Mainship. I replaced the aft Vacuflush head with a manual toilet, and added a raw water/fresh water selector valve. That way when power fails or the freshwater pump fails, there’s a crapper that still works.

 

[rcsomany]

Regarding "odors in the boat"...
We have had Vacuflush heads in two different boats with no problems.
However, in our current boat, we were getting a waft of sewage odour after every flush. I gave the holding tank a "shock treatment" of two bottles of this stuff, which is described somewhere as a "marriage saver"...
https://dansnauticalshop.com/products/shock-treat-holding-tank-deoderizer
... and the problem went away.
The web page linked above explains why it's a good thing to do. I'm sure there's a similar product available in the US.

 

[Comodave]

Regarding "odors in the boat"...
We have had Vacuflush heads in two different boats with no problems.
However, in our current boat, we were getting a waft of sewage odour after every flush. I gave the holding tank a "shock treatment" of two bottles of this stuff, which is described somewhere as a "marriage saver"...
https://dansnauticalshop.com/products/shock-treat-holding-tank-deoderizer
... and the problem went away.
The web page linked above explains why it's a good thing to do. I'm sure there's a similar product available in the US.

You need to get more air into the holding tank and the smell will go away.

 

[Heap]

Doomed or Blessed?

After reading all the previous posts, I’m not sure if I am eventually doomed as a VF owner, blessed, or just luckier than Tom Brady.
I have owned a 2004 MS 400 with a VF system since 2013. In those seven years, except for two clogs, one “landlubber” induced, and one self inflicted, I have had very little problems. I have also done virtually no maintenance on the system; haven’t replaced duckbills or seals, just keep using it and whistling past the graveyard. Every now and then I will put just a teaspoon or less of Lite Olive oil in the head to lubricate the ball seal, but that’s really it.
I did have a smell problem for awhile, but I followed some of the advise that people have given on this forum. I can’t say which particular act “did the trick”, and I apologize to all my Systems Engineering and Statistical Quality Control friends for that, because I did everything at the same time.
- Used a shop vac to push air through the vent line. An ungodly stench came out of the overflow valve. Like a bolus of bad air.
- Started using No-Flex regularly
- Bought a fish aquarium air pump and attached the tube to the holding tank overflow valve so that when I am on shore power, a baby breath of air is constantly going through the tank and vent.
Now I have to put my geek hat on. Some people seem to be perfectly happy with their VF, others have had continual problems. There doesn’t seem to be any middle ground or consistent reason for failure. Why is that? What are the differences in:
- Construction?
- Installation?
- Operational use?
- Maintenance practices, or lack thereof?
- Hacks and secrets?
- Luck?
- Number of candles lit at Catholic Churches?

 

[menzies]

Same here.

Three issues.

One by a guest who put paper towel down the loo. Asked if they had and they said no so I plunged with no luck. After they went for a walk I open the ball and reached in - and voila!

Water leak when people leaned forward to wipe on the bowl. That was a loose band holding the two parts together and needs the drill to tighten. EZPZ when we realized.

Last one, a hose came off just after the vacuum tank. That was an easy fix, but a hell of a mess! However having had three exploding kids that sort of stuff doesn't actually bother me much!

 

[syjos]

Now I have to put my geek hat on. Some people seem to be perfectly happy with their VF, others have had continual problems. There doesn’t seem to be any middle ground or consistent reason for failure. Why is that? What are the differences in:
- Construction?
- Installation?
- Operational use?
- Maintenance practices, or lack thereof?
- Hacks and secrets?
- Luck?
- Number of candles lit at Catholic Churches?

Sounds like the VF was installed properly in your boat since issues were minimal and self induced.

The frequency of use or lack of use can contribute to issues. If infrequent use, run some water through it once in a while. I pour the contents of the dehumidifier water collection tank into the toilet up to the rim and hold the pedal down until the water is pumped completely out of the bowl couple times a month during off season.

Also when pumping out, pour water down the toilet and flush it through. VF users don't flush enough water during use in order to extend time between pump out. If you are pumping out the holding tank frequently, use more water to flush by lifting the pedal to add water.

Frequent use like livaboard may cause parts to wear faster. Maybe.

Once a year or two depending on how much use, I do a through cleaning. I pour uncloric acid into the bowl with pump off, water switched off, pedal held down until it will not accept more liquid. Turn the pump on for one or two seconds to get the acid into the pump. Top up the acid to the rim with pedal down. Leave it overnight.

Next day, turn the water back on and flush the toilet several times to pump all the acid into the holding tank and to flush the innards with fresh water. Leave the acid in the holding tank for a couple days before you pump out and the acid will clean the tank.

The uncloric will clean the calcium and other yutz from the bowl, holes under toilet bowl rim, hoses or pipe to vacuum generator, vacuum generator tank, pump housing, bellows and the duckbills. The uncloric acid will not harm any metal, rubber or plastic in the VF.

I do the above cleaning prior to disassembling any toilet system. The innards will be sparkling clean and no odor.

The uncloric acid is available from Marine Sanitation in Seattle. It comes as a powder in a small plastic jar so shipping is minimal. Each jar is mixed with a gallon of water. Order more than you need, unless you can calculate the amount required to fill toilet, hoses and VG. The acid is around $8 per jar.

My VF system is now 20 years old. I do the uncloric acid flush every one to three years, depending on usage, replace duckbills every 5 years (the ones I take out look serviceable). At 10 years, I replace duckbills, bowl seal. At 20 years, I replace bowl seal, ball, shaft, cartridge and water valve on the toilet. Also the duckbills and bellows on the VG.

Less than $250 for parts and it will be like a brand new system.

If Sandpiper had two toilets instead of one, I would wait until the system started to misbehave before replacing parts. The uncloric flush really does a good job at keeping things flowing well. I would carry some spares.

Leaking duckbills are usually debris caught in the opening that will eventually dislodge itself. Persistent leaking may be calcium build up in the duckbill which the uncloric acid will dissolve.

Out of all the service calls we went on and all the VG's serviced, less than 5 were bad or worn out duckbills. Duckbills can last a long time. I've seen duck bills last 15 years or more on clients systems.

Most of the issues were caused by misuse - too much toilet paper/solids, and foreign objects. And poor installation - too long a hose run, tight bends or kinked hose, hose running through engine compartment and the heat collapsing hose, "Y" valves, inadequate holding tank vents, inadequate wiring and two toilets on one VG.

 

[Nepidae]

Vacuflush Toilet

While this isn't an answer to your question I would ask if 1 person's measurement is IO and another is OD?

Also, if you are building the system out you can use PVC or normal septic grade plastic pipe for long runs, connecting hose to ends for connection purposes.

Might make the connecting easier and with pipe, no smells to worry about.

Good luck.

 

[syjos]

We did all new VF installations using white PVC DWV (Drain/Waste/Vent) pipe and long sweep elbows.

And sooth hose cuffs for pipe to hose connections.

 

[Dougcole]

Just to put a period on the end of my contributions to this sometimes contentious (part of that is my fault) thread, I want to say that I finally have my head working perfectly. The nagging, difficult to diagnose issue turned out to be some sort of invisible leak in the funnel below the toilet. The other things (duckbills, pedal gasket, etc.) also failed, but the funnel was the one that we struggled to find.


As a recap, after lots of trouble shooting and parts changing, my head was still only holding pressure for 3 1/2 minutes, so I took the vacuum generator unit to Environmental Marine. They put it on the bench, tested everything and found that it was holding pressure. Since they had helped me replace literally everything else in the system in the last year or so, they felt the issue had to be the funnel, so I bought a kit from them and replaced it. They were right, it now holds pressure indefinitely, (hallelujah!).


As per their request, I took the old funnel in to them to check out. They held it up to a light but found no visible leaks of any kind. They said they have seen this two other times in 25 years.


I'm just glad my head is finally working correctly. It's been 8 years.


Thanks for all of the useful suggestions from the forum.