Vaccination passports

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Let's not forget the CDC is a federal government agency.

 

[FWT]

"Karens" are privileged white women who use that privilege to endanger or call out black people or other minorities, or to get ahead of them. Their behavior is not something I support.

But what are "Karen orders" and how are they related to COVID, vaccinations, or masking?

Yeah "Karen" certainly started that way but in common usage has morphed into the general behavior when done by anyone. And you know what that is. An angry rage when their personal and often narrow view of what you need to do to comply with their edicts isn't followed.

So yeah, as dumb as double and triple masking is, that certainly qualifies. Insisting on actions that have proven to be ineffective at best and harmful to society (shutdowns) at worst certainly qualifies.

Its behavior that become toxic and common. You may have seen people refer to the United States of Karen in reference to some of the more really nutty stuff. The cancel stuff when you don't comply. You are evil if you don't see it their way.

If you really want to tick off Karen, a simple "Bartleby The Scrivener" approach of "I'd rather not" sets Karen's off in a blind rage. Or in modern literature an "Atlas Shrugged" response.

 

[soin2la]

You might not like my attitude, but I really don't care. If I stop at Port McNeill and I am required to wear a mask, I will wear one. However, you have no say in the USA! So pound sand.

Sorry I’m late getting back to you; until my PM box crashed, I was busy reading the “Thank You” notes about this post:

If you are still planning to refuel in Port McNeill, that unwelcome, bombastic attitude will change real quick.

Katie tells me you will need to wear a mask and says if you make it across the border, they will track you up the coast so they can get in some fresh crow and humble pie, just for you.

 

[angus99]

So yeah, as dumb as double and triple masking is, that certainly qualifies. Insisting on actions that have proven to be ineffective at best and harmful to society (shutdowns) at worst certainly qualifies.

So, is a two percent reduction in the daily death rate of growth trivial? Daily growth rates compound over time, don’t they? And where, besides the Washington Examiner, have you read that mask-wearing is ineffectual? Certainly not in the CDC study you cited:

Mandating masks was associated with a decrease in daily COVID-19 case and death growth rates within 20 days of implementation. Allowing on-premises restaurant dining was associated with an increase in daily COVID-19 case growth rates 41–100 days after implementation and an increase in daily death growth rates 61–100 days after implementation.

Of course, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him pull his mask up to cover his nose, can you? So mask mandates are only as good as the compliance of those who “follow” them.

My theory: most people who are wearing masks understand their benefits, wear them properly and protect themselves and their families/friends/neighbors. So they were likely protected both before and after the mandate and have no statistical impact in the studies. Other people refuse to wear masks and maybe continue to be infected at the same rate they always were. Still others are compelled to wear masks against their will and many of them have only partial protection, at best. I see dozens of them every time I’m in public—technically in compliance but medically half-assing it. I suspect the latter two groups are the reason the growth rates weren’t declining faster in the studies. Would love to hear what Hippo and Pilou think about this.

 

[Bacchus]

Agree business has a right to "refuse service" unless it is a racial type issue.

But I also have the right to spend my money in a different establishment that is acceptable to me.

Caring about people isn't the issue if those same people try to force you to comply with a mandate you find objectable, fear mongering and violates my right as an American.

So I respect individuals right to not wear a mask if they choose. But I wish they would NOT enter establishments that post "Mask required" notices and would actually take their business to any establishment that chooses to go maskless.
I also wish those establishments would make their policies clear so those madking could steer clear.

 

[FWT]

So, is a two percent reduction in the daily death rate of growth trivial? Daily growth rates compound over time, don’t they? And where, besides the Washington Examiner, have you read that mask-wearing is ineffectual? Certainly not in the CDC study you cited:

Mandating masks was associated with a decrease in daily COVID-19 case and death growth rates within 20 days of implementation. Allowing on-premises restaurant dining was associated with an increase in daily COVID-19 case growth rates 41–100 days after implementation and an increase in daily death growth rates 61–100 days after implementation.

Of course, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him pull his mask up to cover his nose, can you? So mask mandates are only as good as the compliance of those who “follow” them.

My theory: most people who are wearing masks understand their benefits, wear them properly and protect themselves and their families/friends/neighbors. So they were likely protected both before and after the mandate and have no statistical impact in the studies. Other people refuse to wear masks and maybe continue to be infected at the same rate they always were. Still others are compelled to wear masks against their will and many of them have only partial protection, at best. I see dozens of them every time I’m in public—technically in compliance but medically half-assing it. I suspect the latter two groups are the reason the growth rates weren’t declining faster in the studies. Would love to hear what Hippo and Pilou think about this.

Well, here's the great thing. You are convinced masks work and a 1% improvement in your odds is worth it. Great. So you are free to wear it. Enjoy. If they work, no need for you to worry about me.

 

[Hippocampus]

Angus much to support your theory.

Wonder if these guys French kiss their wives when they have snot dripping out their noses. Or make their kids wash their hands after pooping when they have the trots.

Pretty fed up with this thread.

 

[FlyWright]

It's the same as No Shirt, No Shoes, No Mask, No Service. I don't think anyone is arguing against that sort of policy. Most libertarians reject the totalitarian approach that infringes upon individual rights and freedoms in the world's last bastion of rights and freedoms, the Great US of A!

I have the freedom to comply or not to enter. No argument there. Who has the RIGHT to MANDATE that I wear a mask if I'm in a public space?

 

[angus99]

Well, here's the great thing. You are convinced masks work and a 1% improvement in your odds is worth it. Great. So you are free to wear it. Enjoy. If they work, no need for you to worry about me.

You mean while you or someone with your belief system incubates Covid 19.1?

 

[FWT]

You mean while you or someone with your belief system incubates Covid 19.1?

Not just mine. The CDC's data too.

Trust the science much?

LOL

 

[BruceK]

Agree business has a right to "refuse service" unless it is a racial type issue.

But I also have the right to spend my money in a different establishment that is acceptable to me.

Caring about people isn't the issue if those same people try to force you to comply with a mandate you find objectionable, fear mongering and violates my right as an American.

Where is it legislated or otherwise writ in stone that Americans don`t have to wear masks?

 

[Zetec7]

What I find hilarious is people saying that Invermectin and Hydroxychloroquin are “European snake oil” (even though they were tested, found safe, and approved by the FDA, years or even decades ago), yet these brand new vaccines are completely safe...even though they’ve never been tested, shown safe or effective, or approved, by the FDA.

Guess it depends on your belief system....

 

[Yahoo 1]

Why 'vaccine passports' could be complicated to pull off in the US.

https://www.aol.com/finance/why-vaccine-passports-could-complicated-145810260.html

 

[backinblue]

It's fine to make your own decisions on actions if you are the only one impacted by those decisions. The problem is inflicting the consequences of your actions on others without their consent.

Very well said, thanks!

 

[ranger58sb]

While you might think it would be difficult to prove, it is not. The statistics are readily available. We want it to be effective, but it is not.

I think you may be confusing reporting and data.

Could be. I'm not great at finding data/stats that prove why something didn't happen.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

While I'm thinking on it, some random thoughts... I notice typical arguments go like this:

A) Some masks worked sometimes in some conditions, therefore all masks work all the time in all conditions.

B) Some masks didn't work sometimes in some conditions, therefor all masks never work in any conditions.

And then there's the "I don't feel any need to protect others; they can just stay home" argument. I haven't yet convinced myself that everyone has the freedom, especially the economic freedom, to do that.

-Chris

 

[backinblue]

ssobol said it best. Your freedom ends at the point it infringes on someone else's health and safety. Not sure much more needs to be said. It doesn't matter what your opinion is.

 

[AZ2Loop]

Could be. I'm not great at finding data/stats that prove why something didn't happen.

-Chris

Proving a negative is something people get hung up on, but it's not hard. We are getting closer to understanding, but I think there is still a tiny bit of confusion and I can clarify it for you if you wish.

You need not prove WHY something didn't happen. You need only prove THAT something didn't happen. Here is an example:
Tommy: "If I punch you in the nose, your nose will bleed."
Marty: "I don't think your punch will cause my nose to bleed. Try it."

Tommy then punches Marty in the nose. Marty's nose does not bleed.
We have proven THAT Tommy's punch did not cause Marty's nose to bleed. We have NOT proven WHY Marty's nose did not bleed, and we certainly did not prove that Tommy punching Marty in the nose caused his nose not to bleed.



This is not difficult!

 

[ranger58sb]

Proving a negative is something people get hung up on, but it's not hard. We are getting closer to understanding, but I think there is still a tiny bit of confusion and I can clarify it for you if you wish.

You need not prove WHY something didn't happen. You need only prove THAT something didn't happen. Here is an example:
Tommy: "If I punch you in the nose, your nose will bleed."
Marty: "I don't think your punch will cause my nose to bleed. Try it."

Tommy then punches Marty in the nose. Marty's nose does not bleed.
We have proven THAT Tommy's punch did not cause Marty's nose to bleed. We have NOT proven WHY Marty's nose did not bleed, and we certainly did not prove that Tommy punching Marty in the nose caused his nose not to bleed.

This is not difficult!

Got it. That time.

But I still don't see how one proves "masking mandates have proven ineffective in slowing the spread of COVID."

Get Tommy and Marty to 'splain that one for me.

BTW, I take no position on whether masks have/have not worked. I've got no data, so therefore haven't got a clue.

-Chris

 

[angus99]

Not just mine. The CDC's data too.

Trust the science much?

LOL

Actually, I do trust the science; I don’t trust people who see only what they want to see in the raw data and then make sweeping generalizations. Please post where the CDC definitively states that wearing masks results in a one-percent reduction of contracting Covid — not your interpretation of the daily rate of growth and not the Washington Examiner’s politicized spin. Post the official conclusion by the CDC that wearing a mask is ineffectual.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/effectiveness-face-masks/

 

[catalinajack]

It is snake oil as to Covid. Aspirin is an "approved" drug also but my bet it doesn't work on Covid. Brilliant.

What I find hilarious is people saying that Invermectin and Hydroxychloroquin are “European snake oil” (even though they were tested, found safe, and approved by the FDA, years or even decades ago), yet these brand new vaccines are completely safe...even though they’ve never been tested, shown safe or effective, or approved, by the FDA.

Guess it depends on your belief system....

 

[FWT]

Actually, I do trust the science; I don’t trust people who see only what they want to see in the raw data and then make sweeping generalizations. Please post where the CDC definitively states that wearing masks results in a one-percent reduction of contracting Covid — not your interpretation of the daily rate of growth and not the Washington Examiner’s politicized spin. Post the official conclusion by the CDC that wearing a mask is ineffectual.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/effectiveness-face-masks/

See the CDC link in #374

 

[catalinajack]

I'm still wondering, if masks don't inhibit spreading to others, why, for over 100 years, surgeons and nurses wear masks in hospital surgical rooms. Wondering again if all the mask deniers would want their surgeons not to bother wearing masks. Any of you mask deniers care to comment?

Got it. That time.

But I still don't see how one proves "masking mandates have proven ineffective in slowing the spread of COVID."

Get Tommy and Marty to 'splain that one for me.

BTW, I take no position on whether masks have/have not worked. I've got no data, so therefore haven't got a clue.

-Chris

 

[backinblue]

Originally Posted by Zetec7 View Post
What I find hilarious is people saying that Invermectin and Hydroxychloroquin are “European snake oil” (even though they were tested, found safe, and approved by the FDA, years or even decades ago), yet these brand new vaccines are completely safe...even though they’ve never been tested, shown safe or effective, or approved, by the FDA.

Seriously? You can have your own opinion but you can't just make stuff up because it fits what you want to believe.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. b. "...you can't just make stuff up..." Seriously? Are you attempting to limit Z7's Constitutional 1st Amendment Rights? Shameful!

 

[backinblue]

Thanks RT. I stand corrected, sorry all, carry on...

 

[angus99]

See the CDC link in #374

I did read it. You interpreted the CDC data—wrongly, I believe. You didn’t provide a quote from the CDC concluding that masks are ineffectual. Still waiting.

 

[angus99]

Greetings,
Mr. b. "...you can't just make stuff up..." Seriously? Are you attempting to limit Z7's Constitutional 1st Amendment Rights? Shameful!

I think Z7’s Canadian, RT, so the first amendment may not apply directly. But the bigger question about Z7 is: what are y’all putting in the water up there? Thought loonies were supposed to be limited to currency.

(Editor’s note: I’m from Wayne Gretzky’s home town. RIP, Walter, a friend of my mom’s.)

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 99. You're right! Z7 IS Canadian and I have no idea what is in the water on the west coast. Not the first amendment but Canada DOES have a freedom of speech law.


https://usmfreepress.org/2018/04/22/a-canadians-perspective-freedom-of-speech-laws-in-canada/

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So I respect individuals right to not wear a mask if they choose. But I wish they would NOT enter establishments that post "Mask required" notices and would actually take their business to any establishment that chooses to go maskless.
I also wish those establishments would make their policies clear so those madking could steer clear.

It would appear some States are waking up by opening their States.

Well, here's the great thing. You are convinced masks work and a 1% improvement in your odds is worth it. Great. So you are free to wear it. Enjoy. If they work, no need for you to worry about me.

Or worry me. I and others have a choice.

It's the same as No Shirt, No Shoes, No Mask, No Service. I don't think anyone is arguing against that sort of policy. Most libertarians reject the totalitarian approach that infringes upon individual rights and freedoms in the world's last bastion of rights and freedoms, the Great US of A!

Amen

I have the freedom to comply or not to enter. No argument there. Who has the RIGHT to MANDATE that I wear a mask if I'm in a public space?

Thank God for the Great USA!