Upgrading/changing to electronic controls

[tensim]

Looking to replace/upgrade our old mechanical morse cable controls to new electronic ones. Looking at either the Flexball or Glendinning systems. Curious as to folks thoughts and experiences with either? Open to other suggestions also.

I like the Glendinning due to their ProPilot Joystick option, seems an intuitive easy way to control the boat for docking etc? But they don't do a wireless remote, which is something we're also considering due to being short-handed onboard. Could get a separate remote from Dockmate or Yacht Controller I guess, but quite an expensive option I believe! Flexball do have a wireless remote option, but don't do a Joystick setup... decisions decisions eh?

 

[ScottC]

There's a lot of cool stuff out there. I like electronics and generally don't mind the "futzing around" that's often required. That said, for me, personally, I would not want to trust such critical functions as shift and speed to electronics without some form of mechanical backup. Guess I'm just really old school on this, as I've lived long enough to know that more often than not, there will come a point when the electronics will fail -- generally without any prior warning. At least with the mechanical controls, you may get some warning...and you can visually inspect.


Thrusters and thruster remotes are a different matter. Like them. Use them. No worries, as there's always the backup of docking the "old-fashioned" way. Thruster remote batteries can crap out at inopportune times, so it's best to be pro-active about battery changes.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Welcome aboard. I reserve my opinion because I am "old school" as well. I might consider wireless remote/joystick IF there was some way to incorporate into existing mechanical system.

 

[David Griffiths]

I reckon the Hynautic system is one step better than push/pull cables, while still largely mechanical.
Good feel, smooth operation and variable leverage and throw options.
Fully electronic, hmmmm, why? One thing that MUST work every time is the engine control system.
I have been onboard others boats to move them and really had to experiment with the controls to work out how to increase revs without putting the engine into gear. Not intuitive!

 

[mvweebles]

No direct experience, but a suggestion to check the IP Rating (water proofness) if to be mounted outdoors. I was not familiar with the Glendenning ProPilot so watched a video - would definitely want to make sure the rotating knob is watertight for the long haul.

A friend recently had issues with his electronic controls (Mathers? Mated to ZF) on a 2014 50+ foot boat that tracked back to water intrusion. Docking was a challenge when the issue erupted as the boat would not shift in/out of gear properly. The replacement control and install was several thousand dollars.

I have to say, electronic controls are very nice. Also makes it easy to add helm stations if you want such as one in the cockpit for backing-down.

That said, not uncommon for manual controls to have a linkage decouple for some reason so they aren't failsafe though are more easily repaired. Electronic controls are pretty ubiquitous these days. If you've taken a commercial airline flight in the last 50 years or so.......

Peter

 

[sunchaser]

Tensim
What kind of vessel, how many engines and what brand of transmissions? As mentioned earlier, will any of the stations be in the elements?

 

[rslifkin]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of electronic engine controls on boats. I'd expect stuff like the $$$ Kobelt systems to be good, but some of the issues I've seen reported with others makes me think they're just not designed well enough and are not robust enough in use. Stuff like voltage dropping a hair too low, so the controls drop off-line. That's a bunch of BS. There's no reason for the controls not to have a voltage regulator in them and stay working down to a low enough voltage that everything else on board will crap out first (at which point it likely doesn't matter if the controls are still working).



On my own boat, I wouldn't install electronic controls if they were free. For 2 reasons. First being the robustness concerns (that could be resolved if a suitably robust product were available). The other reason is that they only come as single lever controls from any setup I've seen. That's fine for a single engine boat, but I hate single engine controls with twins. As far as I know, mechanical (either cable or hydraulic) controls are the only way to get split engine and gear controls.

 

[catalinajack]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of electronic engine controls on boats. I'd expect stuff like the $$$ Kobelt systems to be good, but some of the issues I've seen reported with others makes me think they're just not designed well enough and are not robust enough in use. Stuff like voltage dropping a hair too low, so the controls drop off-line. That's a bunch of BS. There's no reason for the controls not to have a voltage regulator in them and stay working down to a low enough voltage that everything else on board will crap out first (at which point it likely doesn't matter if the controls are still working).



On my own boat, I wouldn't install electronic controls if they were free. For 2 reasons. First being the robustness concerns (that could be resolved if a suitably robust product were available). The other reason is that they only come as single lever controls from any setup I've seen. That's fine for a single engine boat, but I hate single engine controls with twins. As far as I know, mechanical (either cable or hydraulic) controls are the only way to get split engine and gear controls.

"Stuff like voltage dropping a hair too low, so the controls drop off-line."

Not necessarily off-line. I once followed a boat into a lock that crashed into the lock wall and another boat completely out of control of the master. It was later learned that the voltage supplying the controls had dropped below the operational threshold. The system locked on the last command which was in forward gear and with more than idle engine speed. It all happened before the captain was able to shut down the engines. Quite the scene as the pulpit got jammed underneath the steel railing.

 

[rslifkin]

"Stuff like voltage dropping a hair too low, so the controls drop off-line."

Not necessarily off-line. I once followed a boat into a lock that crashed into the lock wall and another boat completely out of control of the master. It was later learned that the voltage supplying the controls had dropped below the operational threshold. The system locked on the last command which was in forward gear and with more than idle engine speed. It all happened before the captain was able to shut down the engines. Quite the scene as the pulpit got jammed underneath the steel railing.

Even worse. It's not like sufficiently robust control systems don't exist (see airplanes, large commercial ships, etc.). So the lack of robustness in some of the electronic controls aimed at recreational boats is just inexcusable to me (and is reason to avoid them when possible).

 

[tensim]

Interesting views. Aren't most (all?) new boats/planes/heavy trucks etc etc now "fly-by-wire"?

 

[diver dave]

FAA and SAE have significant specs and enforcement. Pleasure boats, not so much. ie; free enterprise, with the occasional slapping by lawsuits

 

[Taras]

I've had electronic controls fail twice while in a marina (2 separate boats) at precisely the wrong moment causing the boat to crash into another vessel. I will never go with Electronic Controls.
If you watch Below Deck Sailing Vessel you'll see the episode where he also loses control (due to electronic controls failing at the helm) while backing into a sea wall in order to Med-Moor. The controls failed him and the boat crashed into the cement seawall causing 10's of Thousands of dollars in damage.
I would stick with the mechanical controls!!

 

[sunchaser]

Ive had mechanical controls fail too. So have others. The key to either setup is a sound design, good installation and top notch PM. Some on this forum have five different locations for electronic controls on their vessels. Larger modern yachts are universally electronic. It is a fair subject for debate though, especially with safety involved.

Once the OP gets some real world numbers, then he can balance costs to reliability, for both systems.

 

[catalinajack]

Even worse. It's not like sufficiently robust control systems don't exist (see airplanes, large commercial ships, etc.). So the lack of robustness in some of the electronic controls aimed at recreational boats is just inexcusable to me (and is reason to avoid them when possible).

In the case I mentioned, the controls were not at fault, it was the idiot boat builder that wired the controls to the boat's thruster battery rather than the house bank. The thruster had been used enough to drop its voltage below the controls' operational threshold. Genius.

 

[rslifkin]

In the case I mentioned, the controls were not at fault, it was the idiot boat builder that wired the controls to the boat's thruster battery rather than the house bank. The thruster had been used enough to drop its voltage below the controls' operational threshold. Genius.

That's definitely poor implementation. But I still fault the controls for not indicating that they were approaching minimum operating voltage. And for not defaulting back to neutral when the controls dropped offline.

 

[Portage_Bay]

That's definitely poor implementation. But I still fault the controls for not indicating that they were approaching minimum operating voltage. And for not defaulting back to neutral when the controls dropped offline.

The common theme seems to be failure due to low voltage. And the designer/manufacturer failure to access this. A quick search turns up numerous 12 volt dc low voltage alarms. It should be easy to install one on the power supply.

I agree the failure mode should be neutral idle. For any failure.

 

[diver dave]

Lots of ways to skin this cat.
Regulate down to 6 V and make it a 6v system internally
Or, DC to DC convertor to get smooth 12v

Or, internal backup

Alarms nice, but still leaves u out of control.

 

[Bmarler]

i'm familiar with the controls that have the low voltage threshold issue. i had a set on my last boat. i liked them really well, they were reliable and predictable. i was running off a 24 volt bank though, so no low voltage issues for me.
it does state clearly in the manual what the voltage requirements are and what precautions to take when choosing how to power them. if you can't follow directions, it can't be blamed on the manufacturer.

 

[AZ2Loop]

I just witnessed such a failure this week in our marina. The boat was operated by the owner, an owner I have seen "thread a needle" with his 42' boat many times. Not this day. Electronic controls just stopped responding, from talking to him, and that was consistent with what I witnessed from the dock. No major damage, but still some damage and a VERY uncomfortable moment as the boat would not come out of forward gear and hit the dock with pretty good force. He had to shut the engines off. I keep wondering what he will feel like next time docking, or the next, or the next. It's just a 2 year old boat.

 

[klee wyck]

I have Glendinning electronic controls on the catamaran thought not with ProPilot since I do not have thrusters. It has two fixed stations at upper and lower helm and two wired remote stations on the fore and aft decks.
Pretty cool and handy for sure.
I have mechanical controls at a single helm station on the monohull. This is pretty mundane but also exquisitely simple, easy to understand and deal with should the need arise.
In the end, after some initial experimentation mostly due to the novelty, I almost always drive from a helm station on the cat, even in close quarters. I am most comfortable there and have a better feel for where the whole boat is and what it is doing from that perspective.
I think much of this is personal, but if I were to be offered two identical boats of a model that I was interested in, one having a simple mechanical control system and one having a complex electronic control system, I would choose the simple system. Especially in Mexico where competent technicians are not to be found just anywhere.
It probably matters that I am almost never single handed and am always in possession of headsets for close quarters maneuvering.
Much of the agricultural equipment we run these days in fly by wire and failure is not a rare occurrence. It is sometimes possible for our very capable shop to work this out, but not that often and the down time is exasperating even if not that dangerous as it could be in a vessel.
KISS?

 

[rslifkin]

Lots of ways to skin this cat.
Regulate down to 6 V and make it a 6v system internally
Or, DC to DC convertor to get smooth 12v

Or, internal backup

Alarms nice, but still leaves u out of control.

Ideally, it should be a combination. Voltage regulation to minimize the chance of the controls dropping offline (as well as good interference protection for all of the electronics). And a low voltage alarm to warn if you do manage to approach the limits of system operation (so the system dropping out isn't a total surprise). And an engine with electronic control should default to idle if the control signal is lost. A transmission actuator should make all effort to move to neutral if controls are lost.



Basically, lots of little things that would make the system more robust against failures and also minimize the consequences if a failure does occur.

 

[diver dave]

I am not well versed in these controls; the first thing I would consider is how many single points of failure there are. A default mode to move to idle/neutral is better than “stuck in gear”, but not good enough.
I saw a system in for test at an EMC lab once, thats promising, but just how many solder joints, mechanical linear actuators and IC’s are in the critical path for success here?
One could ask the same questions for electronic engine controls as well. Yep, they are important, but i know those are extensively tested. As an example, I worked on a factory test system that tested 100% of production Fxxx engine controllers at 100 deg C.

 

[stow it]

Looking to replace/upgrade our old mechanical morse cable controls to new electronic ones. Looking at either the Flexball or Glendinning systems. Curious as to folks thoughts and experiences with either? Open to other suggestions also.

I like the Glendinning due to their ProPilot Joystick option, seems an intuitive easy way to control the boat for docking etc? But they don't do a wireless remote, which is something we're also considering due to being short-handed onboard. Could get a separate remote from Dockmate or Yacht Controller I guess, but quite an expensive option I believe! Flexball do have a wireless remote option, but don't do a Joystick setup... decisions decisions eh?

I have Glendinning on my new boat with two control stations. The second station is in the cockpit and is usually covered by canvas. The controls worked great throughout the first season but the day I was moving the boat for haul out the cockpit control failed. If one fails everything fails. There is a fix but I didn't have the part on the day of the failure nor did I then know how to make the fix. Fortunately the failure occurred within a mile of my marina and in an open area so I was not in a bad way but I did have to get towed in.

I thereafter learned how the system works. The fix involved buying a 'terminating resistor' from Glendinning, disconnecting the threaded system cable fitting from the control head and then attaching the terminating resistor to the system cable.

I returned the control head to Glendinning under warranty and they sent me a new one. I was told that the control head failed due to water intrusion. Evidently they are still working at making the control heads more water resistant.

There is another option, which involves buying a control head that is equipped with a back up system. There is one black box for the standard system and if I recall the back up system requires an additional black box. More money but I'm told that if you experience a failure you can simply push a button on the control head and immediately regain control.

I have heard of a few other owners with the same problem. The Glendinning controls were supplied with my engine and transmission at the time of the build so I didn't have a choice. That being said the GD controls have a lot of features that I like. For instance there is a (docking) slow mode, which when engaged changes the engine throttle response; full handle movement will only result in half of normal throttle speed. My engine is also equipped with a trolling motor for fishing and I am able to engage the trolling motor from the GD control.

I had talked to a friend about installing the backup control head during the build but some how that didn't happen. I can always throw money at it and change to a back up control head as long as i have room for the second black box.

My other boat has mechanical controls, which have never failed me, but they don't give me the bells and whistles.

Good luck.

 

[rgano]

I was so disgusted with the ZF Micro-Commander control that came with this boat that once I got it safely home, it never left the pier again until I had replaced it with a morse shifter. NEVER again.

 

[fgarriso]

FAA and SAE have significant specs and enforcement. Pleasure boats, not so much. ie; free enterprise, with the occasional slapping by lawsuits

I agree with Dave.

I don't like too much government control, but the marine industry is seriously lacking on any control or oversight. I do believe that electronic t/s control can be manufactured that have backup controllers, and are "almost" failure proof.
But, at what price. Would $10,000 be to much? What about $50,000 or $100,00 ? Or, we could use NASA pricing say $1,000,000 for each function.

It all comes down to what the market will bear, and what the consumer is willing to Pay.

 

[stow it]

the Glendinning back up was several thousands but I believe less than $5000

 

[clburti]

ZF Micro-Commander

We have a ZF Micro-Commander on the fly-bridge and lower helm. The boat is new to us, but I like them so far. We have a back up set of Morse controls at the lower helm which seems to be a sensible arrangement. They offer the options you are interested in.

 

[NVR II Nauti]

Interesting discussion.
I had Mather electronic controls on my Tolly44 for several years without a problem.
I crashed a 65 ft monohull sailboat over the pier in Dana Point in a docking as a result of the the shifter cable breaking. Lots of attention.
Depends on your personal experiance.
I love electronic controls.
Don

 

[DW1979OA]

I installed the Glendinning with wired remote. It has 35’ of wire so I can go to the bow or stern with it in hand. Didn’t want to trust wireless. I did leave the control cables at the lower helm in place and put a new dual manual controller there. All the cable connections in the engine room are quick connect. Pop off the GD connections and put the old cables back on. Solid performance in-the two years I have used it

 

[rslifkin]

Interesting discussion.
I had Mather electronic controls on my Tolly44 for several years without a problem.
I crashed a 65 ft monohull sailboat over the pier in Dana Point in a docking as a result of the the shifter cable breaking. Lots of attention.
Depends on your personal experiance.
I love electronic controls.
Don

I've had a close call due to a cable failing (bound up and got stuck in reverse in my case). But the failure mode was immediately apparent. Went to put the stbd engine in neutral and the shifter wouldn't move. Immediate reaction was to give a hard tug on the shifter which did break it free. If it hadn't, I would have just flicked the key off for that engine as I was continuing without it regardless (was most of the way backed into the slip anyway).

The big key was that the mechanical control failure didn't have the moment of "what the heck is going on here?" It was immediately apparent what had happened, so it was just a reaction with minimal delay.