Trawlers 101 - Part 1

[Baker]

I didn't try to find an unflattering pic....I found that and posted it at random. And it is NOT a sedan.

You keep using the term "configuration". A sedan and europa are configured generally the same. It is their exterior styling that is different.

 

[Marin]

Baker wrote:
You keep using the term "configuration". A sedan and europa are configured generally the same. It is their exterior styling that is different.

When I say configuration, I mean configuration.* The external configuration of a europa is different than the external configuration of a sedan.* The large overhanging boat deck, streamlined side supports, and often-enclosed aft deck are not just "styling" differences.* They're configuration differences.* The external configuration of a europa allows a dinghy/tender and launching system*to be carried on the boat deck.* The sedan cannot do this, or at least I've never seen one that does.* That is more than a simple "styling" difference, at least in my book.* It is a capabilities and configuration difference.


I realize*you selected the photo of the Europa Tri-Cabin Sedan at random, but if the boat is not as straight-lined as*it appears, the photographer did the boat a dis-service.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 9th of October 2009 06:29:46 PM

 

[Baker]

Okay Marin, you win!!! The main difference between a sedan and a Europa is that if it is raining, you will likely get wet on a sedan and might not on a europa. That is the ONLY difference. Niver mind the fact that if you are inside the boat out of the rain you have no clue what kind of boat our are on.......

 

[Marin]

Baker wrote:

Niver mind the fact that if you are inside the boat out of the rain you have no clue what kind of boat our are on.......

Sure you do.* If the water is running down the windows and leaking in all around the window sill and seeping in under the aft door, you're in a sedan.* If the windows are nice and clear with no leaks around the sill and the floor is dry inside the aft door, you're in a europa.

*

 

[Codger2]

I think we've pretty much covered this subject....what say we call it a Mexican Standoff?

 

[captmorgan23]

NOOOOOOOOO..........I believe a fifth page is in order.......the horse is not dead, and once it is it still needs to be beaten!

MP

 

[Baker]

Okay ....just to appease y'all................


Marin, let's take a 737-800 with winglets and one without winglets. Are they totally different aircraft because one is "configured" differently?

 

[Marin]

Bad example because winglets are just add-ons. You can stick them on any 737-800. Kind of like teak trim. The cabin/boat deck molds for a europa are completely different than the molds for a sedan. Totally different boats in terms of that part of the manufacturing process and tooling.

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 10th of October 2009 11:48:48 AM

 

[Baker]

Marin wrote:

Bad example because winglets are just add-ons. You can stick them on any 737-800. Kind of like teak trim. The cabin/boat deck molds for a europa are completely different than the molds for a sedan. Totally different boats in terms of that part of the manufacturing process and tooling.

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 10th of October 2009 11:48:48 AM

Yep, you are exactly right. *WInglets are just add ons . *you chop the winglets off and you have the same airplane. *You chop the overhangs off....and you have the same boat. *Simple as that. *Thanks for clearing that up!!!

*

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

oy-vay!

 

[captmorgan23]

I knew you guys could do it...........you finally killed the horse...woohoo! Now lets beat that sucker for another page or two.......I love this forum, you guys get riled up.....lotta spunk here.

MP

 

[Marin]

Baker wrote:

Yep, you are exactly right. *WInglets are just add ons . *you chop the winglets off and you have the same airplane. *You chop the overhangs off....and you have the same boat. *Simple as that. *Thanks for clearing that up!!!

Nice try but still wrong.* You can't simply unbolt the boat deck, side pillars, etc. from a europa and have a sedan.* Like I said, different design, different molds, different tooling to produce a different boat.

*

Using your reasoning, you could chop off the top of the pilothouse on a a pilothouse boat and end up with a sedan.* So by your reasoning, a pilothouse boat is just a sedan with a raised roof over the lower helm station.

*

I'll bet if you give it some thought you can come up with a definition that makes every boat simply a modification of a sedan

 

[Baker]

Nope, a pilothouse you go up stairs to the pilothouse and down stairs to the staterooms. The master is usually midship under the pilothouse....totally different layout and boat.

When you get right down to it, the way I view the classification of trawlers(and obviously the view of the original poster and the reason he did not mention europa as a different classification), is the general layout of the boat....not exterior styling. A sedan does NOT have the same interior configuration as a trunk cabin/classic....it does not have the same interior layout as a sundeck....it does not have the same interior configuration as a pilothouse. A sedan DOES have the same interior configuration as a europa.

PS....winglets are not just bolted on.

 

[sunchaser]

As mentioned very early in this thread, what makes a trawler cannot be seen because it is under the water.* GB, OA, Symbol et al like to call something that has a covered sidedeck, Portuguese bridge, staterooms crammed forward, or a forward raked windshield a trawler. Nope, won't cut it in big water and cold weather.

Nor do a bunch of underpowered vessels that couldn't make their minds up between SD or full displacment. Slow does not mean trawler to the purist but has become a common naming in the past 30 years.

Try this for trawler : a deep keel to protect the prop(s), properly shaped stern for follwoing sea safety, 1000 mile cruise range at a minimum, overall sea keeping ability, heavy loads of fuel, water and gear do not affect performance at 8 to 10 knots, engines sized for hull speed plus a very comfortable safety factor, shuns light high speed diesels etc.

Does anybody doubt that a Nordhavn or*Northern Marine are not a trawler? Or the myriad of fishing trollers? PMM notes that many 3000 hp 60' vessels are trawlers; well I don't think so but they are pretty.

 

[Marin]

Baker wrote:

PS....winglets are not just bolted on.

PPS... yes they are.* I've filmed their installation several times in the wing assembly building in Renton.* It takes about 30 minutes to install them.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 12th of October 2009 10:57:14 AM

 

[Baker]

Maybe if they are part of the original build. But if they are retrofitted it is a little bit more than than sticking a few bolts thru a few holes and then tightening the bolts. There is sheetmetal work that needs to be done. There is electrical wiring for lighting. There is plumbing for pneumatic systems(de-ice). Etc. It becomes a structural part of the wing and not an additional item that is just added on. That is why the call them "blended" winglets. They blend them into the wing....not just bolt them on.

Either way, you may be correct but my airline takes longer than 30 minutes to install o...usually measured in days. We have been retrofitting our aircraft for YEARS. We could have done it in less than a week according to your timeline. Ours are installed at our heavy maintenance facility in MCO. They could have just put them on on the overnight....but they, for whatever reason(like maybe it takes longer than 30 minutes) had the aircraft down for longer than that. And you know the bottom line is the motivating factor so I guarantee you they were doing them as quickly as they could. Our airline doesn't f#$% around when it comes to money.

 

[Baker]

Do I hear 6 pages???

 

[Marin]

Baker wrote:

...my airline takes longer than 30 minutes to install o...usually measured in ....

I guess that's the difference between an outfit that designs and builds planes for a living and one that flies them

They're called "blended winglets" because their shape blends into the shape of the end of the wing.* That has nothing to do with how they're attached.* If you see them come out of the box, the "blend" is part of the winglet as it comes from APB.* The attach point is inboard of the "blend" curve and is basically a*pretty*straightforward butt joint.* The illustration below is what you see when you open the crate except they're usually already painted for the airline.

I can ony go by what the folks on the assembly lines have told me and what the folks at APB (the people who build the winglets) have told me, and what we've filmed in the plant on both new and retrofitted planes, and that is that winglets are a "no brainer" (their words)*to install, either new or as a retrofit.* Sure, there's wiring and stuff that has to be installed and hooked up, but in terms of the actual "put them on the airplane" it's a few (large-ish) bolts.* It takes longer to get them out of their crates and hanging in the corrent orientation from the lifting fixture than it does to actually put them on the plane.

This whole thing*is way different than sawing off the overhangs on*a europa and redoing all the glass work to turn it into a sedan or fabricating, attaching, and blending*the overhangs on a sedan to make it a europa (plus strengthening the overhead, which is stronger on a europa than on a sedan).

Winglets is just a box of parts that you put on.* Unless your mechanics are incredibly slow or are at the bottom of the learning curve (or have to follow some stupid management "process," the bane of every company on the planet these days), I suspect they actually get the box of winglet parts installed pretty quickly--- it really is a dead-easy job.* I wouldn't be surprised if the weeks you say it takes them to actually get your planes back into service is waiting for all the FAA paperwork to get signed off.


*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 12th of October 2009 02:13:30 PM

 

[Baker]

Paperwork maybe and not likely weeks....but a day or two. One of the things CAL has done a really good job is not having those management processes that cost money. We are very streamlined. ANyway, I have an email in to one of my mechanic buddies just out of curiosity to see the real amount of downtime we have with these things. I may be remembering a number at the beginning of these projects....we did hundreds of planes so I would imagine that time shrunk as we went along.

ANyway, back to the original point. Ultimately, like I said above, our real arguement/disagreement is whether layout determines the "type" of trawler or whether it is exterior "configuration"(I use that term just to appease you....

...I think it is too strong of a word in this case and that the differences between a sedan and europa are minor and basically just exterior "styling"). Think of it in terms of usage. I will use(handle, plan, storage strategy, sleeping strategy, guest accomodations, etc) a sedan the exact same way I will use a europa. *You can think of it in terms of expectations as well. *I expect a significantly different experience on a sundeck then I would on any of the other types. *A sundeck I know I will have a full width aft cabin. *I won't have that on a sedan(or europa). *Line handling is exactly the same on the europa/sedan....not the same on a sundeck,etc. *The way I "use" any of the other types will be different. The only difference is that sedan and europa look a bit different....but not by much. *Their "usage" will be the same.




-- Edited by Baker on Monday 12th of October 2009 04:01:54 PM

 

[Codger2]

Boy! You guys are sick! Who the hell cares what the difference is?

Baker: You are not going to win this ...I mean how can you possibly stand up to a* "Guru" who has filmed the winglet assembly procedure and has talked to the mechanics that actually install them? His next door neighbor is probably the engineer in charge of winglets!**

Give it up man!

 

[Marin]

Baker wrote:

Their "usage" will be the same.

This is true.* The pointy end goes forward on both of them.

*

 

[Marin]

SeaHorse II wrote:

His next door neighbor is probably the engineer in charge of winglets!

No, but the neighbor of one of our cameramen is the manager of the 737 wing assembly organization

There is an unauthorized loading of a music video I produced and directed showing the 737 moving assembly line on YouTube.* I don't know how it got on there and Boeing is probably working with YouTube to get it off, but for now it's at*

* The actual video is in high definition, but the YouTube download has hideous picture quality.* But you might be able to make out what's going on.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 12th of October 2009 10:39:00 PM

 

[Baker]

SeaHorse II wrote:

Boy! You guys are sick! Who the hell cares what the difference is?

Baker: You are not going to win this ...I mean how can you possibly stand up to a* "Guru" who has filmed the winglet assembly procedure and has talked to the mechanics that actually install them? His next door neighbor is probably the engineer in charge of winglets!**

Give it up man!

Hey, I'm just playing. *He can have his winglets. *They were just one of his diversionary tactics because he was losing ground on the original arguement!!!

SO he had to go airplane on me. *Hey, I have more flight time in a 737 that he does....does that count for anything???

Y'all have a good night. *767s in the morning!

*

 

[Nomad Willy]

No JB* ..* you win. There is the unquestionable inference that "just bolted on" inferes* that no other action is necessary to incorporate them. Any fool can see that increased loads on the wingtip will result, hence the wing must be especially designed for the fences and "just bolted on" dos'nt cut it.
Oh** ... by the way I had an ultralight that had "blended" tip fences and several owners turned them upsidedowm resulting in a wing that tip stalled rather abruptly. There was no doubt which configuration (you guys all know what that means NO?) was the most efficient** ..* they called the wing that had the fences inverted (droop tips to many) the wing that wouldn't land.

Eric Henning


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 12th of October 2009 11:39:11 PM

 

[Marin]

Baker wrote:Hey, I have more flight time in a 737 that he does....does that count for anything???

Nah.* Anyone can fly a blow-plane.* Seahorse, you could learn to fly one in 15 minutes.* Just push the button that says "Los Angeles" and you fly to Los Angeles. Right John

In fact the next generation Boeing and Airbus planes will be flown by kids in offices with game controllers.* Same way the Predators are flown today over Iraq and Afganistan by guys in a control room on an air base in the US. "Pilots?* We doan' need no stinking pilots."
So no, I don't have any 737 time.* I have a hell of a lot of time in this, though. (wife took this on one of our trips up the Inside Passage and into the Coast Range in BC)

You will note that we have a DHC-2* Beaver Europa.* You can easily tell this from a DHC-2 Beaver Sedan because ours has the wide overhanging extensions on the boat deck.




-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 13th of October 2009 01:12:00 AM

 

[FF]

"In fact the next generation Boeing and Airbus planes will be flown by kids in offices with game controllers.>

Amazingly some Pax planes are NOW being flown with kids with 250 hours!!!


Caviat emptor

 

[RickB]

And that 250 hour right seater is better trained and qualified for that seat*than some old fart* jock who sat in the left seat*a generation or more ago when you were ace of the base.

Don't forget why CRM was invented ... to protect the fares from*the egos of high time know it alls who couldn't manage a crew to save their lives ...

And, around 250 hours is pretty close to what it takes to get a zero time civilian up to a carrier qualified naval aviator isn't it?

-- Edited by RickB on Tuesday 13th of October 2009 06:40:04 AM

 

[sunchaser]

Hi Rickb --just read*today's** USA Today which had articles about the miracle on the Hudson. Sully is my hero and he has a kazillion hours to back it up. Graybeards anytime for me when the going gets tough. One of my FIL's closet friends was the Chief Pilot for United many years ago - Milo Bacon. *Being around him and his multi thousand hour compatriots was quite a thrill. Much more so than my young buddies who were just in their flying infancy, the same buddies who looked reverently at Milo.

 

[RickB]

Hi Sunchaser, I am one of the graybeards with over 8k,*a rookie*compared to my colleagues who stuck around to retirement but it was a lot when I left for greener pastures during Desert Storm.*I am not saying that time doesn't matter, time is experience and exposure to the environment, it matters a lot. Put a graybeard onboard with*that 250 hour rightseater and as a*pax I am content. *Pair him with a 1250 hour guy then it's a different story.

I am saying that a 250 hour right seater is not what it was a generation or two ago. If that time was earned in a professional training environment, that guy is just as good (or has the same potential) as*a newly minted aviator*catching his (or her) first 3-wire.

Remember though, as*much*as Sioux City, the Gimli Glider,*Transat 236,*and the "Miracle on the Hudson" are testaments to experience and accumulated hours, there*are far more examples of tragedies induced by complacency and the "gear up, flaps up, shut up" attitude that put a Western flight onto closed runway at Mexico City.*

 

[RickB]

If only there was a way to extract DNA from fiberglass ...