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"If you will reread what I wrote, I wasn't advocating forced sterilization. I was suggesting the government offer a substantial amount of money to a woman willing to give up her future reproductive option. I would think an offer of $20K might be of interest to a woman living in poverty. "

Wow! Talk about inflation , Margret Sanger was only giving $5.00

*******
"Lack of education at ALL levels IS the problem."

Forced political non education is a bigger problem, how many folks understand WHY we salute a flag,

or why gov is broken into 3 branches?

Without education we have associate professors ( and a president ) stating ,the Constitution is a doccument of "negative rights."

******

"We need to resolve the cost of health care. Everyone points to pharmaceutical prices, the manufacturers. More could be done there, but a stern look at hospital costs, especially specialist and administration costs, needs to happen. Health care can simply not be left to the free market. Burying our heads on the issue due to political stance is not resolving the issue - and it remains a huge issue."

The big problem with health care is there is no Free Market,,, Every one gets billed differently , and there is NO way to "shop" for care , compare prices , even for an aspirin in a hospital.

Prices should be posted and on the internet , and the same price (no rebates) for all payers.
 
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I think we may need to look at the bigger picture. Income redistribution has been occurring on a truly massive scale for the past few decades. The redistribution has been from the more developed countries to the lesser developed countries as economic globalization has progressed. The natural result is that many people in the developed countries have been left behind as their skills could be acquired for considerably less cost in other countries. The low skill, well paying jobs moved out of the US. And the living standards of hundreds of millions of people in the developing world increased substantially.

Should they have seen this coming? Well ... maybe. Ross Perot did.

Some of us, through a bit of hard work and a lot of luck ended up on the plus side of this new world order. I sure did - I got out of the engine parts manufacturing business and into a perpetual career - Government contracting for the defense industry.

Pure luck as to where I landed. But a lot of our fellow citizens didn't make the transition. What to do about them? They have my sympathy, but I'm not giving them my money. As I alluded to in an earlier post, we could certainly spend our tax dollars a lot more wisely, and domestically, to start to try rebuilding at home.

Even Bill Maher understood (before he was infected with TDS) - He asked, "Who do you care about more - Americans or the rest of the world?"
 
Greetings,
Mr. OC. Sorry, I misinterpreted. You said "...we will pay you a compensation / reward when the first child is born (which you can't financially support) if you will allow the hospital to sterilize you." The mother is NOT being forced but what happens if she says no? Is she cut off welfare?


You go on to say perhaps a stipend of $20K might be of interest to a woman living in poverty in return for sterilization. So, this woman takes the $20K, gets an education and a job, wants to get married and have kids....no wait...


I understand what you're saying but I really don't think that's a viable, long term solution.


Re: Post #48. Nope. the bottom 50% will be in the same place IF they're only paid off and a goodly percentage of the 1% will leave the country. Train the bottom 50% and in 50 years, nay 5 years I would not be surprised if the numbers dropped to 10%.


Train and educate that single pregnant woman in poverty and support her while she learns and she won't be a long term burden on society.


Regarding welfare or social assistance. I fully agree, people should be required to work for their money OR attend school. Mandatory drug and alcohol testing should be put in place as well. Substance abusers will be treated in a medical facility.

Mr. RT, to the woman who refuses sterilization, I wouldn't deny welfare benefits. This would have to be completely voluntary. If it wasn't clear, I assume the average woman on welfare has 2 or more kids. The idea was to keep that number to 1 and offer money or more benefits to improve the woman and her child's situation. While I don't know, it seems that the poverty isn't getting better as a percentage of the total population, inspite of all the money spent. If you're going to spend more money per person, there needs to be a plan to incentivize people in poverty to have less children.

Regarding a woman climbing out of poverty and then wanting more kids, adoption. Everyone has to make choices that also have minuses.

Ted
 
See....that paragraph shows you really haven't been among those trapped in poverty. Have you ever been to an inner city housing project? Sat and talked to homeless? They can't escape poverty through a frugal lifestyle, they're already as frugal as possible. They can't spend money on training. They have no money to spend.

69% of Americans have less than $1000 in savings according to one survey. Whatever, the real percentage, the bottom 50% don't have savings. If they have an emergency such as health care it goes on a credit card if they have one or they incur huge debt.

As others said, you don't play Robin Hood and take from the rich and give to the poor but you do take from the rich to provide education, health care, child care, to help people our of the cycle of poverty. You don't accept schools like those I mentioned earlier just because they're almost all black and the white kids are in private schools. In Mississippi, over half of all black students attend schools in districts rated D of F. Now, Clinton, MS is a great example of the opposite. But of those black students who attend D or F schools, those districts are 86% black and of those attending F schools, those districts are 95% black. You make changes now and you still have 10-20 years of undereducated.

I believe in certain unalienable rights of all people. Every child in this country should have access to a good education. Now, you want to see taxes come down, they will as you create more taxpayers. Every person living in this country should have access to good healthcare. Others have mentioned repeatedly those two issues. We have a bail system in this country where poor people are kept in jail and wealthy people get to go home. Not only then to they not make any money but we spend tax dollars housing them in jail. Reduce our prison levels to normal and you save enough money to go far. We need to develop more taxpayers and a larger tax base by enabling more people to earn money. We have people in jail at a cost to taxpayers of $80 to $150 per day over what originated as a $50 or $100 ticket. Fail to pay on time, fine added, then warrant and more fines and soon it's enough they'll never pay. Easier to do the time. Courts issue fines all the time that it's not reasonable to expect to be paid.

I never thought this day would come, but I have to applaud Walmart. Their efforts to increase their minimum wages was then followed by Amazon's announced increase (topping Walmart) and Target's plans. Then Walmart's new Education Benefits are very nice. We already had a program but we immediately augmented it with their program. Now if we could only make such a program available for all students regardless of where or if they worked.
You're are correct, I haven't sat down with people in poverty living in the city. Instead, I pay taxes to address the problem. In my lifetime the situation hasn't improved because the solution isn't designed to reduce the numbers living in poverty, only help improve the standard of living somewhat. Any solution whose goal isn't to reduce future numbers is destined to fail. Imo, any solution that doesn't include relocation out of the city, probably won't work either.

Ted
 
I think we all want to educate those who want to learn, but don't want to babysit those who don't. And we want to support those who strive to support themselves, but don't want to enable/encourage deadbeats.


It's also human nature to game whatever system is presented. It will always happen to some extent with some people doing it on a small scale, and others doing it on a large scale.


So how do you pick and choose? Who is worthy of educational support? Who is worthy of living support?


I think a big part of the problem is that some voices have a disproportionately large hand on the scale, so policies get crafted to service those voices, not the best interest of the country. We are a serious "me" society rather than an "us" society. Ironically, it's the "American Dream" of work hard and advance that also promotes stepping on anyone and doing whatever it takes to get what you want.


OK, ramblings over...
 
"In my lifetime the situation hasn't improved because the solution isn't designed to reduce the numbers living in poverty, only help improve the standard of living somewhat."


Regardless of income levels congress keeps increasing the "poverty " level to capture more " poverty" voters .This explains why congress has done mostly nothing for 50 years of illegal migrants .
 
While some don't pay who should, the vast majority don't pay because they lack the necessary income. Look at all those living on social security alone. They don't pay. Would you suggest they should then pay income taxes on their social security. Look at the 15% living below the poverty line, the 30% in near poverty and the 40+% that are below 2 x the poverty line, still below a subsistence level. As someone else pointed out, even those not paying Federal Income Tax are paying 7.65% in federal taxes plus several percent in state taxes through sales tax so their tax rate is in excess of 10%.

If you pay taxes as a retiree, be grateful that you have income other than just social security because many don't. In fact, for 43% of single retirees, social security is 90% or more of their income. The average social security is under $1400 per month and that's before deducting for medicare payment and before any medical costs. If you're not facing these issues be thankful. If you can afford a boat, be thankful. If you have income over $1400 per month be thankful.

Personally, I got a huge tax cut for 2018 and I think that is the most insane thing in the world. Even after charitable donations I paid at a rate of 35% in 2017 and I have no issue with that. I'd pay more if it meant we'd take better care of our poor, our elderly, and our children. I'll pay about 28% in 2018. Did I merit a tax cut? No. However, we will not keep that 7% for ourselves but try to use it to help others. To us, it's dirty money, like that received from some illegal enterprise. Far more tainted than our winnings playing poker a week ago (yes we do pay taxes on those too).

There is a great divide in this country between wealthy and poor with an ever increasing number of both and a shrinking middle class. I see references to the 1% often on this site, but really let's reference the 50%. 99% of the people on this site are among the lucky 50%. Those who have income, who own property or boats or both. Those who can get medical care, can afford food, housing, medication. If you're not aware how many people struggle on a daily basis just to survive, you really need to get out and meet some of them. If you measure the condition of the country by the stock market, then you're excluding the nearly 50% of all Americans who own no stock, no 401-K, no retirement fund, no IRA, no mutual fund, no pension, no ETF. And if for one moment, you think it's because you're better than them or more deserving than them, then there's nothing that I can say that will ever make you more compassionate.

I see the reports of the movie stars who have lost homes in California. I don't worry about them. It's all those we'll never hear of who have lost everything in the Wildfires and in the hurricanes. I recently went to the area of SC and NC ravaged by Florence and took some young executives with me. We went to some of the poorest areas where we've recently purchased manufacturing facilities and the one comment that rang so loud at night was "I can't believe the conditions they live in." We've made sure all those in our extended family actually know personally some others far less fortunate than them.

None of us like how all our tax dollars are used although we'd argue which uses are bad. However, with those suffering in our country, I find it repulsive that I and other wealthy received a tax cut. I do believe a society should be judged not on how those best off in it live but on how it treats the least fortunate among themselves. Based on that, I still believe our society gets a very poor grade.
Wow. Just, wow? A wealthy person who does not lust for more money. I salute you.
 
Greetings,
At the risk of having this post deleted OR the thread ended the only comment I can make is: IF the government used tax $$ more carefully, there would be enough to deal with those needing assistance.


Edit: Mr. M. Good points.
The old waste, fraud, and abuse theory. Bunk.
 
What percentage is that? How specifically does government promote poverty as a way of life?

And how much has government spent bailing out, subsidizing, and given tax deductions for banks, corporations and farmers (now usually one and the same) who have made bad decisions?
And farmers on farm welfare. Hurt by Trump's tariffs, farmers got another gift. I talked with Shelly from Atlantic Towers, a boat supplier whose products are all made with aluminum. Their business has been devastated by the aluminum tarfiffs but no bail-out for them. Why just the farmers? Politics, of course.
 
Ok, since you asked.

What percentage of the poor do you think do some of the following:
Do illegal drugs
Drink significant amounts of alcohol
Smoke cigarettes
Have a $75+ a month cable / satellite TV bill
Gamble / play the lottery
Buy non essentials on credit / impulse buy
Have more children than they can afford

I'm sure you think I'm a cold cruel person for suggesting any American live without these things. Well I can, because I lived through a hand to mouth existence for years paying off a substantial dept accrued by my exwife and I.

The government promotes poverty by rewarding for continued bad behavior. Benefits increase if you have more children while on government assistance. The government should be saying we will pay you a compensation / reward when the first child is born (which you can't financially support) if you will allow the hospital to sterilize you.
Government promotes poverty when they don't force you to perform public service for when you receive welfare / unemployment benefits. Government discourages employment when getting a low paying job equates to working for almost nothing when you loose your welfare benefits.

While I'm not a proponent of most corporate bailouts, I would rather see their employees working (and paying taxes) as opposed to collecting welfare and unemployment.

Ted
No welfare? Well, folks gotta eat. They will find a way. Lock your doors.
 
Greetings,
Mr. BB. Isn't that basically what I posted? Lack of education at ALL levels IS the problem.
In a sense, yes, lack of education. But, the point being made was, in Mississippi, a good education is simply not available. Now, what is your suggestion for changing that fact.
 
So, if we take the wealth of the top 1% and cure all the problems of the bottom 50%, do you think 50 years from now the bottom 50% will be any different than they are now?

Ted
In a word, yes.
 
Greetings,
Mr. c. Bunk? My opinion. You are fully entitled to yours. I will NOT give my reasons for said opinion as it would surely get this thread removed and erased (politics).

Mr.tt. Re: post #65. I agree.

Edit: Mr. c. Re: post #71 (I type slowly). Education in Mississippi? More money? A complete re-organization of the educational system? I am NOT an educator, per se, but when a high school graduate in a number of the southern states has the skill set of an 8th grader in another part of the country, the system is broken and broke. There may NOT be a viable solution.
 
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BandB: Why not donate your Riva to the IRS so they can redistribute the value to those that need it more than you?

Put your money were your dogma is.
I think she already said she is doing exactly that, donating all of her tax savings.
 
BandB: Why not donate your Riva to the IRS so they can redistribute the value to those that need it more than you?

Put your money were your dogma is.

Wifey B: For your information we do put our money where our so called dogma is and we do that outside the IRS. However, this topic isn't about where our money goes, it's about what we as a society want to do. It's about those who don't pay taxes and why they don't pay and tied to that the great divide in the country. If you don't care about those less fortunate than you, that's your right. I do care and don't apologize for it. :mad:
 
Wifey B: For your information we do put our money where our so called dogma is and we do that outside the IRS. However, this topic isn't about where our money goes, it's about what we as a society want to do. It's about those who don't pay taxes and why they don't pay and tied to that the great divide in the country. If you don't care about those less fortunate than you, that's your right. I do care and don't apologize for it. :mad:

+1

In most cases federal government isn't the solution to local problems. In some cases the state can't determine the proper fix. Sometimes it takes the private sector devoid of politics to determine the correct solutions. The difficulty is getting the money to flow to the solution without political strings attached and politicians at the state and local levels dipping their hands into the money.

Ted
 
Greetings,
Mr.OC. And therein lies the rub. Getting sufficient funds flowing in the right direction minus the political lobbyists and $$ dippers. Something about camels passing through the eyes of needles?
 
"Education system" or "Indoctrination system?" There is a huge difference betwixt the two.:nonono:
 
+1

In most cases federal government isn't the solution to local problems. In some cases the state can't determine the proper fix. Sometimes it takes the private sector devoid of politics to determine the correct solutions. The difficulty is getting the money to flow to the solution without political strings attached and politicians at the state and local levels dipping their hands into the money.

Ted


And also wise spending on the part of whatever private institution is responsible for the work. Unfortunately this is one of the other big leaks in the system. For many businesses, "privatization" is their gravy train, taking large sums of tax payer funds and doing a poor job. And I would argue they are smarter and more skilled at milking the system for vast quantities of cash than a bunch of people on welfare.
 
Greetings,
Mr. a. Re: your post #78. Indeed and that fact was already mentioned in post #61. Amazingly, the Chinese appear to be able to incorporate both quite successfully. NOT saying the Chinese system is better, just interesting...


http://iret.org/pub/BLTN-94.PDF


It seems the answer to the OP's original comment is two fold. There are significant numbers of people in the US who do not make enough $$ to pay taxes and there is a small number of people who avoid paying taxes by various means.


https://borgenproject.org/poverty-in-china/


Another article describing how China has dealt with their poor (new schools and gov't subsidized housing) and NO I'm not touting the Chinese system BUT if poverty can be successfully addressed in a massive country such as China, surely....
 
In a sense, yes, lack of education. But, the point being made was, in Mississippi, a good education is simply not available. Now, what is your suggestion for changing that fact.

Wifey B: Not available to a large segment of the population. However, that deeply affects all in the state.

Simple math coming up from someone not so skilled in math. You have more uneducated needing government support, what happens? Tax rate goes up to provide those services. Why does Mississippi have such a high tax structure compared to other states? And such a low level of services?

The reality is you either help the poor up front, through education and other services or you help them on the back end by supporting them. For boaters think of it as preventive maintenance. It's called the FRAM concept. :lol:

Mississippi just happened to come up as an example, but look at inner cities of major cities, look at other rural areas. Look at areas of West Virginia where life expectancy is like a third world country.

How do we change the educational shortcomings in this country, the students without access to a decent education? Wow. Post high school, both college and technical training would actually be the easiest with funding at the national level and that's likely the best place to start for quicker results. Guarantee all students access to post high school education or training. K through 12 is a nightmare. It's been left to the states and cities to manage and many have done a horrible job and all the testing in the world won't change that by itself. Giving them all Amway isn't going to help either. I'd like to say a groundswell at the local level could happen and lead to the change, but we've seen how that works. I understand. People struggling to get by aren't going to suggest more local taxes to improve their schools. We need to look very carefully at what other countries are doing more successfully. We've slipped with our pre-school programs. Then our students have fewer class days per year than others. By the time they graduate they will have gone to class far fewer days. Then just add in the days lost to extracurricular activities. Going nearly three months in the summer without school means a lot of effort just refreshing what was forgotten during that time. Eliminate things like hour and a half class periods too that exceed the concentration ability of students. Anything over 55 minutes is only marginally beneficial. But see it's easier to schedule fewer but longer classes. More shorter breaks just work better. Teachers Pay is important as Oklahoma median teacher's pay is $39,000, Mississippi is $44,000. Good teachers leave for other professions. Bad teachers stay and that's a subject too. There need to be standards for teachers as well. Paying bad teachers the same as good teachers sure doesn't help. Then teachers and educators need more influence. Education shouldn't be a political football of local elected officials who know nothing about teaching.

There are so many things done effectively in other countries that we need to look at. We need to admit we're providing a second class education and it's not just the Netherlands or Switzerland doing better, it's Canada, it's Russia, it's Singapore.

Unfortunately, it means Federal involvement. I think not so much in telling states or districts how to do things, but in telling them what isn't acceptable and holding them accountable. Yes, provide new ideas and standards, but have some type of accreditation. There is uproar over the State of SC taking over the Williamsburg School District. However, they gave the district chance after chance. I'm not convinced the state will do better, but they can't do worse. I'm so tempted to go build a charter school there but trying to see if there's a better way to help through the existing schools. SC is a state that has a statewide Charter District and those schools do get state funds. However, no one builds a charter school in the areas of greatest educational need. They build them in the most prosperous areas of the state.

It saddens me a bit to see all the political campaigns. Neither party has an education agenda. Yet, it took little time for this group of idiots (using the recent popular thread) to pinpoint it as the huge underlying problem. Then it takes the drive to insist, to not accept what we have. No local district wants to admit they're doing a lousy job. Of course not, they're elected officials. "I'm your school board, I'm doing a lousy job, re-elect me." Not a good campaign slogan.

Our most precious asset is our children. We need to love and nurture and educate them. All of them. We're failing. As a nation, we're failing. As a society we're failing. From K to College to Careers we're failing. We need foreign tech employees, we need foreign doctors, we need foreign nurses. Why? Because we're not educating enough. We have too many who can't get decent jobs. Why? Because we didn't educate them. When I see a kid who thinks he's dumb because no one taught him to read adequately, I cry. :cry::cry::cry:

That's where it starts. Now, I'm prejudiced. Reading is my specialty. That is where my Masters and Doctorate are focused. But if a kid can't read, he's not going to learn math or science. Every kid in this country should be taught to read well, no matter what it takes to do so. I have a four year old niece I adore so, Aurora. Aurora is so smart. But Aurora's been going to day care and learning since she was very young and at four she's starting to read. When I started school, I'd never had a book. There were none in our house. You get kids started reading prior to first grade and then you make sure they progress through first and second grade and you've done wonders toward turning their education around. If they have a lousy history teacher in high school, it won't hurt as they can read and absorb the material. It's really hard to defeat a reader. They'll be ready for college because they can learn, can be taught. If I was deciding what to do with tax dollars then, making college and career training accessible to all would be the step for quickest progress, school accountability would be important, but then for the greatest long term progress, I'd make sure every kid in the country learned to read early.

Federal funds can help in areas like reading if directed properly. I'm going to mention a federal give away program as many might label it. School lunches. I know for most of you school lunches were probably the worst meal imaginable. Not for poor girls like me. School lunch and then breakfast were the best meals I ever got and they're what kept me going. Prior to government provided meals, free for the economically disadvantaged, teachers were trying to teach hungry kids, malnourished kids. It's not just the inhumanity of thinking kids aren't being fed in the world's richest country, have you ever tried to concentrate and learn when you were starving? Seems like such a basic premise to make sure kids are fed. Parents should, but many weren't. I couldn't have paid for my school lunch. It sure hurt my pride to be one of the free lunch kids, but not so much that I wasn't happy and thankful for it. See, our taxes can be used in the right ways. I thank those who paid taxes so I got breakfast and lunch. Also so there was a school library and I thank the librarian who would let me stay late. And we did have a kindergarden program and I thank those teachers and my first and second grade teachers who taught me. So, I could eat the free meals, read the free books. Stay in the library as long as possible to avoid going home. Go home and take a book to my room and stay there. When I read, I escaped to a better place. Whatever I became it's because of the free meals, free books, good early teachers, pre-school. Your tax dollars at work because my family sure didn't pay taxes. :)
 
Ok, since you asked.

What percentage of the poor do you think do some of the following:
Do illegal drugs
Drink significant amounts of alcohol
Smoke cigarettes
Have a $75+ a month cable / satellite TV bill
Gamble / play the lottery
Buy non essentials on credit / impulse buy
Have more children than they can afford

I'm sure you think I'm a cold cruel person for suggesting any American live without these things. Well I can, because I lived through a hand to mouth existence for years paying off a substantial dept accrued by my exwife and I.

The government promotes poverty by rewarding for continued bad behavior. Benefits increase if you have more children while on government assistance. The government should be saying we will pay you a compensation / reward when the first child is born (which you can't financially support) if you will allow the hospital to sterilize you.
Government promotes poverty when they don't force you to perform public service for when you receive welfare / unemployment benefits. Government discourages employment when getting a low paying job equates to working for almost nothing when you loose your welfare benefits.

While I'm not a proponent of most corporate bailouts, I would rather see their employees working (and paying taxes) as opposed to collecting welfare and unemployment.

Ted

You're the one making the accusations, you tell me what you are basing them on.
 
As if often the case, I see a lot of comments about the root of problems related to poverty by folks who don’t have any contact with the class of people that are talking about. There seem to be a lot of assumptions made about the poor in the US that aren’t necessarily true.

I am fortunate in that I have moved up out of the “middle-class” about 10 years ago. However, unlike most folks in the upper quintile income levels, I actually deal with folks who are in the other 4 income quintiles on a daily basis. I talk to them, discuss their health and life and attempt to keep them from going blind without going bankrupt. Because of this intimate interaction, I can tell you that the landscape of welfare and Medicaid has changed drastically in the last 30 years.

Simply put, some of the stereotypes I hear put forth about the poor and the folks that receive welfare benefits are completely out of touch with reality and are based more on personal bias and ignorance than actual information.

I certainly don’t have any perfect solutions for income disparity, the shrinking of the middle class, poverty, hunger, or the stifling affect that taxes have on business growth. I do know that most of the knee jerk dogmatic tropes that I hear are simply not true (from both the left and the right).

Ted (I think it was Ted?) mentioned in one post that there were two primary issues that are causing our economy troubles, health care and education. I couldn’t agree more. As someone who actually provides health care, I can tell you how broken our current system is. I also spend some years accrediting institutions of higher education and residency programs, so I am familiar with some of the problems in education as well.

Since most of my income is from pass through businesses and my income is below the $315,000 cap, I get a 20% income deduction from most of my income. That means that I’ll pay roughly $15,000 less in tax this year than last year. I really like that extra $15k and it will go directly to my retirement savings, since I don’t have enough. However, that tax break for me isn’t doing a think to help the economy. It would have been better spent giving it to the folks in the middle income quintile who would actually spend it to boost the economy. Even so, I’ll save my tax break while it last.
 
Greetings,
Mr. dh. Well said sir! WAY too many stereotypes. I'm thinking specifically of addicts. Drug, alcohol, gambling etc...
 
Greetings,
Mr. dh. Well said sir! WAY too many stereotypes. I'm thinking specifically of addicts. Drug, alcohol, gambling etc...



Yes sir. That perception exists because the well off are much better at hiding there addictions.
 
The old waste, fraud, and abuse theory. Bunk.


I think not bunk.

OTOH, the actual extent of real W/F/A maybe isn't the most important problem.

I suspect W/F/A stories about money distributed through the parachute programs give the programs such a bad name that it leaves a bad taste... in turn giving rise to more W/F/A complaints... in turn decreasing support for (or increasing cries against) parachutes... et cetera...

-Chris
 
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