Starlink

[dannc]

It doesn't like rain.

We had a pretty intense last few days weather wise and found we lost solid signal for hours at a time due to rain/cloud cover.
....

Yeah, heavy rain will block the signal. We have not had a problem with cloud cover and we have had at least two left over hurricanes pass over us. Rain blockage has happened to us a few times, but not often and not for long. We had a tree come down early in the year from very strong localized winds caused by a couple of thunderstorms around us. It was raining pretty heavy too. I don't think we lost the Starlink, we might have, but we were looking out the windows and watching the trees whip around.

When we had satellite TV we would loose the signal for hours at a time if we had freezing rain or snow accumulating on the trees. Course, the big concern was the trees coming down and taking out power.

Once upon a time while living in the city, where we had cable TV and Internet, we would loose the signal in heavy rains. Best I could figure was that there was a microwave communication link somewhere that the rain would block.

Our now canceled DSL service would drop for a few seconds when there were thunderstorms in a certain direction. My guess was that EMP, and/or ground strikes, between us and communication nodes, would disrupt the signal. Was kinda odd that one.

Not sure we ever lost the cell phone Internet from weather. If it happened, it did not last long.

Starlink went down for us for 5-10 minutes yesterday for no known reason. Skies where clear so it was not weather and had to be on the Starlink side. Ironically, interestingly, maybe even suspiciously, our cell based Internet we use to back up Starlink was also down. Starlink was back after 5-10 minutes. The cell network came back on over night.

This is only the second Starlink outage I can remember that was for unknown reasons, at least for us.

 

[Sababa]

It doesn't like rain.

We had a pretty intense last few days weather wise and found we lost solid signal for hours at a time due to rain/cloud cover.

BeiDou ,Galileo ,GLONASS and I assume GPS were still operational
The reason I mention that is on one occasion 6 years ago we did lose all of them as well but that was next level rain and hail, thankfully short lived.

My understanding is that the Ku and V bands that Starlink uses for user links (as well as the Ka band that they also use for base station links) are relatively susceptible to rain fade because the wavelengths at those higher frequencies are small relative to the size of the rain drops. GPS and such continues to function relatively well in the same conditions because the lower frequency wavelengths are much larger.

 

[tpbrady]

Starlink is thinking about using V band and has filed with the FCC to use it, but to the best of my knowledge they haven’t started using it. Rain attenuation at V band (40-75 GHz) is a big deal so the first implementation of V-band will be on the gateway link since a satellite has the flexibility to look at multiple gateways, with at least one hopefully not in the rain. At this point the capacity of a Starlink satellite is limited by the capacity of the gateway link. V-band helps solve that problem.

 

[MYTraveler]

My understanding is that the Ku and V bands that Starlink uses for user links (as well as the Ka band that they also use for base station links) are relatively susceptible to rain fade because the wavelengths at those higher frequencies are small relative to the size of the rain drops.

My starlink is at a cabin in northern Wisconsin, where heavy rain and lightning storms are common. I have not experienced any service interruptions during any of those storms.

 

[mvweebles]

I've tried for a couple days to order Starlink for delivery in Ensenada MX. Unfortunately, I cannot get multiple credit cards to go through, and Starlink has zero customer service. No idea what the issue is - Ive called my bank, and the small test transaction ($0.05) goes through.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Peter

Problem solved. I read on another boating forum that Starlink only offers RESIDENTIAL in Mexico. So I tried that this morning and voila - went through. I had been trying for RV since it appeared to be available in Mexico (they even gave a different price for it). Frustrating experience.

QUESTION: Does anyone know what type of cable connector Starlink uses to the antenna?

Peter

 

[AdmiralS]

Problem solved. I read on another boating forum that Starlink only offers RESIDENTIAL in Mexico. So I tried that this morning and voila - went through. I had been trying for RV since it appeared to be available in Mexico (they even gave a different price for it). Frustrating experience.

QUESTION: Does anyone know what type of cable connector Starlink uses to the antenna?

Peter

There are lots of articles on the internet that cover this already so wont rehash any of that.

Under the covers its ethernet, but uses proprietary connectors today that are similar to a micro usb/c connector.

What is even more frustrating is that they changed the connector from the motorized dishy to the new flat in motion panel so you need to splice or re-run the whole wire.

 

[mvweebles]

There are lots of articles on the internet that cover this already so wont rehash any of that.

Under the covers its ethernet, but uses proprietary connectors today that are similar to a micro usb/c connector.

What is even more frustrating is that they changed the connector from the motorized dishy to the new flat in motion panel so you need to splice or re-run the whole wire.

Thanks - I was hoping it was not proprietary. My cabling chase is open right now running other stuff. Would be nice to run the Starlink too, but will just wait.

I also belong to a small email group of Mexico/Central America cruisers. They report that while you cannot purchase RV in Mexico, you can upgrade to it. However, you cannot go back to residential once you do. At today's exchange rate, Residential is $57/mo; RV is shown as $70/mo.

Peter

 

[tpbrady]

You can cut and splice the cable using power over Ethernet (POE) connectors and a suitable splice block. Look up POE connectors on Amazon and you will find what you need.

Tom

 

[Sababa]

Thanks - I was hoping it was not proprietary. My cabling chase is open right now running other stuff. Would be nice to run the Starlink too, but will just wait.

I also belong to a small email group of Mexico/Central America cruisers. They report that while you cannot purchase RV in Mexico, you can upgrade to it. However, you cannot go back to residential once you do. At today's exchange rate, Residential is $57/mo; RV is shown as $70/mo.

Peter

Residential is priced the same in the US once you add the mobility option. Are you sure it’s not the same in Mexico?

 

[mvweebles]

Residential is priced the same in the US once you add the mobility option. Are you sure it’s not the same in Mexico?

What follows is my best understanding. No gaurantees it's correct, but I'm pretty sure it is.

Okay, to clarify, for purposes of these conversations, there are three flavors of Starlink service. IMPORTANTLY: you have to be careful with terms: Mobile means intended for use while in motion; Portable means it can be relocated, but not intended for use while moving (though many cruisers report success while underway).

1. Residential - fixed mount antenna.
2. RV-Portable. Not intended for use while moving, but okay to relocate.
3. RV-Mobile - the newest flavor enabled in the last couple months, distributed via Wingard. Not yet available outside US.

HARDWARE: Residential & RV-Portable use the same antenna. RV-Mobile uses a different antenna that is $2500 purchase. It is not available in Mexico.....yet.

SERVICE FEES: RV-Portable and RV-Mobile are the same month fee. Residential fixed is slightly less expensive.

MEXICO CAVEAT: Initial order must be "Residential" but can then be upgraded to RV-Portable. Once upgraded, it cannot be down-graded back to Residential.

Here is a quick reference table at current exchange rate of $19.37MXN to $1USD

Peter

 

[Derek]

Was docked next to a boat with star link. He told me that it works great, but (this is all his opinion)…. The mobile solution is in constant gyro motion and a huge power drain. Apparently, these early adopters are disabling power to the gyros and laying the antennas horizontally on the arch/hardtop. He said works great. Over 200mb up and down at first but starting to slow down as subscribers are added.

 

[GoneFarrell]

Yes, we lay the antenna flat too. Works fine, less power draw.

Boat moored near ours has a antenna too, here at Cedros Island, Baja.

 

[SteveK]

Yes, we lay the antenna flat too. Works fine, less power draw.

Boat moored near ours has a antenna too, here at Cedros Island, Baja.

Did you do the hack to turn off the tracking motor.

 

[Simi 60]

Was docked next to a boat with star link. He told me that it works great, but (this is all his opinion)…. The mobile solution is in constant gyro motion and a huge power drain.

Yeah, I call BS on that
We've had it a few months, power drain in the scheme of things is immeasurable.
Very rarely see it change position by itself,
On 24/7, just like everything on board.

Of course if you have inadequate battery /inverter to run nice things you may find issue.

 

[GoneFarrell]

Did you do the hack to turn off the tracking motor.

Not yet. Does not seem necessary for present mission which has boat on a heading south. May do that when we wind up in moorage in a month.

Current draw is a non issue given baja sunshine photons make mucho power. We measured the amp draw, is less than a fridge, even adding something for inverter. 3 amps or less, we just turn off the inverter at night, it's the only ac load.

Plan is to go to DC DC buckup later, then inverter can stay off.

So far, this stuff is a game changer. Used it last eve to order small parts from Defender anchored off Cedros Island. Took less time than putting away all the tools.

 

[tpbrady]

I’ve measured the Starlink DC load through a small inverter at 5 amps once aligned with the internal heater off. The plan is to turn the inverter off at night and turn it on in the morning.

Tom

 

[Delfin]

Was docked next to a boat with star link. He told me that it works great, but (this is all his opinion)…. The mobile solution is in constant gyro motion and a huge power drain. Apparently, these early adopters are disabling power to the gyros and laying the antennas horizontally on the arch/hardtop. He said works great. Over 200mb up and down at first but starting to slow down as subscribers are added.

Interesting. I just played with mine (an RV subscription) and I expected the antenna to chase the satellites as I went west, north and northwest, but it never moved, nor did I lose connection watching a football game underway. I wonder if the RV configuration is different?


I'll be taking Delfin to Hawaii in June, so one of the things I am curious about is how far out in the Pacific I maintain connection. I know Starlink is now offering a very expensive maritime subscription and equipment, so I assume it will drop connection not too far off shore, but I can't find any reference to the range question for my antenna.

 

[tpbrady]

Delfin,

If you look at the Starlink maritime service on their web site, it seems service is available all the way to Hawaii. The unknown in that is if you need one of the maritime systems to make that work far offshore. Any Starlink system technically should work, but they may geofence the off shore areas so only maritime systems will work. In the Starlink app I would submit a support request asking that question.

All the Starlink terminals I have dealt with don’t move, unless you stow the antenna or it loses signal for an extended period and go through a reinitialization routine.

 

[Simi 60]

Pretty chuffed that it's given us the ability to call this home for as long as we choose.

 

[Delfin]

Delfin,

If you look at the Starlink maritime service on their web site, it seems service is available all the way to Hawaii. The unknown in that is if you need one of the maritime systems to make that work far offshore. Any Starlink system technically should work, but they may geofence the off shore areas so only maritime systems will work. In the Starlink app I would submit a support request asking that question.

All the Starlink terminals I have dealt with don’t move, unless you stow the antenna or it loses signal for an extended period and go through a reinitialization routine.

. Much obliged!

 

[dannc]

Interesting. I just played with mine (an RV subscription) and I expected the antenna to chase the satellites as I went west, north and northwest, but it never moved, nor did I lose connection watching a football game underway. I wonder if the RV configuration is different?...

I am in a house and the dish never moves. I have gone out and checked it but it is in the same orientation it put itself in after initialization. I knew the dish was not supposed to move but I figured it would move a bit from time to time but I have not see that happen.

Looking at the various satellite tracking websites and seeing the number of satellites, how fast they are moving, their various bearings from the house and their distance is interesting to watch. How this works and is so reliable is mind boggling to me. Watch one of the tracking sites and think of everything that has to happen perfectly all of the time....

Here is one site which also shows the cells and availability around the globe, https://satellitemap.space/#

Later,
Dan

 

[tpbrady]

dannc,

It is probably the most complex telecommunications network to design, build, get in place, and then operate I have seen in my 50 years in the industry. Just for the 700,000 terminals in service there are 168,000,000 switching operations every minute just to keep the terminals on line, not to mention what happens at each gateway and in the satellite control area keeping the satellites from hitting other things in space and maneuvering new satellites into the proper orbit.

Tom

 

[magna 6882]

I was at the marina today and a neighboring boat was just unboxing his new system. It was quiet a bit different then my rectangular dish. His was still rectangular but 2 or 3 inches wider in both directions. It didnt have a tripod mount like but but came with a flat slightly angled bracket. It also came with the standard wireless router but also came with what looked like a mesh router .Both routers had 120 volt cords and the mesh type router had a hard-line connector for perhaps a switch. He had no idea what he had and i was just guessing. If the unit is motorized it would have to be contained in the flat dish itself. It almost looked like two systems and compared to my simple flat dish it looked to be about double in weight and size all combined. perhaps even more.

 

[Simi 60]

Loving this
Sitting in a coral lagoon with no mobile reception and on a powered vessel, scratchy VHF due to height it's amazing to finally be able to track incoming weather via the interwebs and see that for us, it's nothing.

 

[twistedtree]

Was docked next to a boat with star link. He told me that it works great, but (this is all his opinion)…. The mobile solution is in constant gyro motion and a huge power drain. Apparently, these early adopters are disabling power to the gyros and laying the antennas horizontally on the arch/hardtop. He said works great. Over 200mb up and down at first but starting to slow down as subscribers are added.

This is a bit misleading about how the antennas work. First, there is no gyro like in a traditional dome. The panel typically tilts to one position, then stays there unless something significant changes.

The flat antenna, called a phased array, has a certain field of view without tilting. It's like the view of a lens in a camera. The view is wide enough that the panel can see enough of the sky to always have multiple satellites in view as they pass over head. It can't see the whole sky, by if you aim it in the right general direction it can see enough of the sky to always have multiple satellites in view. As a result, the panel doesn't need to move other than to find it's initial view. In a stationary location, the panel will tilt once when it starts up, and never move again. On a boat, the antenna's view will change as the boat moves. If it changes enough to lose constant view of satellites, then it will need to reposition.

Starlink offers a couple of higher end antennas that have a larger field of view large enough that if laid flat they can always see multiple satellites as they fly by. You don't need to aim it, but the antenna is more expensive. These are ideal for mobile applications because the boat/RV can move or change direction and the antenna can still see enough sky to have sats in view at all times. What people have discovered is that even the narrower view antenna, if laid flat, has a wide enough view that in most locations is can still see enough satellites to work.

What the flat panel phased arrays do NOT do is actively gimble to remain pointing in a particular location. You only need to do that with a synchronous sat system where the antenna has a very, very narrow view and has to be pointing right at the satellite, even if the boat is moving. Thankfully, the satellite isn't also moving.

 

[tpbrady]

Magna 6882,

The larger antenna is the commercial version for sales for fixed services on land. Not only is the antenna larger, it has a heavier gauge cable as the power requirements are also higher. So high in fact the other smaller box you saw is a power supply with Ethernet port. The larger box is the router just like yours. The other boat owner also paid $2500 for the equipment and is paying $500 a month for service. It is faster on the uploads and downloads but not significantly so in some side by side testing at my home. Yes it is heavier and mounting on a boat should take that into account.

Tom

 

[Helmsman]

Magna 6882,

The larger antenna is the commercial version for sales for fixed services on land. Not only is the antenna larger, it has a heavier gauge cable as the power requirements are also higher. So high in fact the other smaller box you saw is a power supply with Ethernet port. The larger box is the router just like yours. The other boat owner also paid $2500 for the equipment and is paying $500 a month for service. It is faster on the uploads and downloads but not significantly so in some side by side testing at my home. Yes it is heavier and mounting on a boat should take that into account.

Tom

Tom, I have the new $2,500 flat panel. The monthly charge is $135, which is the same as the RV/Mobile solution.

 

[twistedtree]

Tom, I have the new $2,500 flat panel. The monthly charge is $135, which is the same as the RV/Mobile solution.

I'd love to see pictures of this panel and associated equipment, if you have the time? It's what I'm thinking of getting for my boat.

 

[rslifkin]

I'd love to see pictures of this panel and associated equipment, if you have the time? It's what I'm thinking of getting for my boat.

Seabits did a writeup on it recently that might be helpful: https://seabits.com/starlink-flat-high-performance/

 

[tpbrady]

Helmsman,

Thanks for the clarification and addition. The one you are referring to is the one Winegard is also selling. https://winegard.com/flat-high-perf...ZZ2XweOFTHmpEDrLte5nZD7jq9e2kMxRoCcnwQAvD_BwE

TT,

The Winegard website gives a pretty good desciption of the system with specifications on each piece. I noticed that the field of view of the panel is 140 degrees or down to a 20 degree elevation angle above the horizon. That make it pretty reliable underway in many sea conditions it mounted flat. The smaller antenna has a field of view between 80 and 100 degrees. I have seen conflicting data on it.

Tom