Starlink

[Pau Hana]

Dish is scared to death of Starlink. Only, they are screwed. Elon will be motivated to push the FCC into approving for use in motion. He loves a good fight and he loves to win. What Dish needs to do is figure out how to repackage their content so I don’t feel the need for starlink.

Exactly.

Competition is healthy, and Dish does not want competition.

How this pans out will be interesting. I believe that Starlink will continue to innovate and grow, driving Dish to get better or shut down.

 

[JD Ray]

How much pull does the FCC have outside the U.S.? Does anyone care what the FCC thinks outside of 200 miles offshore of our coastline?

 

[Sababa]

Exactly.

Competition is healthy, and Dish does not want competition.

How this pans out will be interesting. I believe that Starlink will continue to innovate and grow, driving Dish to get better or shut down.

The problem is that Dish (and Viasat and Hughes and Sirius) can’t compete against physics. The speed of light means that geostationary satellites will always have nearly a second of round trip latency for two way communication. They work fine for broadcast applications, but once you have a fast, low-latency broadband internet connection via low earth orbit satellites, why not just stream on demand? Add to that you need an expensive mechanical tracking antenna to point at a geostationary satellite from a moving platform like a boat compared to the solid-state phased-array antenna whose cost is falling on a Moore’s law trajectory for a nongeostationary system and the screwing of the the geostationary operators is complete. Literally their only hope is that Starlink goes bankrupt like other nongeo platforms that have preceded it. But with SpaceX having lowered launch costs to a fraction of what those prior systems paid and Elon Musk’s ability to raise capital, that is seeming less and less likely. Regulatory sabotage is literally their last play for keeping satcom sucky and expensive.

 

[HTurner]

How much pull does the FCC have outside the U.S.? Does anyone care what the FCC thinks outside of 200 miles offshore of our coastline?

The pull they have is with Starlink, who cannot offer, at this time, service while in motion.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

The pull they have is with Starlink, who cannot offer, at this time, service while in motion.

What about the RV package?

 

[Toadhall]

The RV package does not allow use while in motion as per the service agreement

 

[HTurner]

What about the RV package?

The key term is "while in motion." I use Starlink while docked and at anchorage. It is stowed, a terminal command, while I am "in motion" -- movement from one place to another. Which is what is prohibited, this applies to all vehicles -- planes, trains, boats, RVs.

 

[Sababa]

The pull they have is with Starlink, who cannot offer, at this time, service while in motion.

The FCC’s jurisdiction is primarily territorial, but the also have to the power to regulate ships of the United States anywhere in the world for certain purposes. Starlink has applications pending FCC approval to use their licensed spectrum to communicate with terminals in motion. As a practical matter, they lack the means to distinguish between moving and nonmoving terminals and provide service to both of them. Dish’s legal beef is that they are exceeding the scope of their license when they do this. SpaceX’s rejoinder is they they try to enforce the restriction through nontechnical means by voiding the warranty of subscribers who use their terminals while in motion. They also say hey, why don’t you just approve our application to use the spectrum with mobile terminals and moot the whole issue. The current restriction applies to both boats and RVs (and airplanes and trains).

Whether the FCC would have the power to enforce it offshore doesn’t matter for now because Starlink can’t provide service there until they get their next generation of satellites with laser interlinks deployed. Right now every satellite needs to be within view of a ground station to provide service.

 

[HTurner]

As a practical matter, they lack the means to distinguish between moving and nonmoving terminals and provide service to both of them.

A Starlink terminal is constantly phoning home data concerning the terminal such as GPS coordinates. This can be seen in the debug info in the Starlink app. If they wish they could turn off those terminals that show change over a period -- speed (motion.) Whether Starlink decides to start terminating service to those who violate the terms of service is yet to be seen.

 

[mvweebles]

Now 25-years old, "The Innovators Dilemma - When New Technology Cause Great Firms to Fail" explains the phenomonon where a company such as Dish or Hughes succumb to an upstart competitor. In short, within a successful company, it's extremely difficult to divert funding from successful endeavors to speculative projects that will cannibilize the revenue base. The book explains how management decisions belie innovation - importantly the premise is that the management teams are good and identify disruptive technology, but they fail to sell it to their existing customers and thus it gains no traction.

Look no further than the Dow Jones Index of 30-companies that (according to Investopedia) was codified in 1928. Since then it has changed such that not only does no original company now occupy the current DJIA, but the original 30 more or less no longer exist. In our current time, consider the case of Sears (non-Dow component) which was clobbered by Walmart, then Amazon clobbered Walmart and killed-off Sears.

The Business Case for Starlink must be massive. If you think about it, a business case for a company like Comcast would start with "in our region, there are 75-million households......" The Starlink business case would start with something like "the planet has a population of 7-billion people......" When you think that big, it suddenly makes sense to lauch thousands of low-earth-orbit (LEO) satellites.

Peter

 

[Sababa]

If they wish they could turn off those terminals that show change over a period -- speed (motion.) Whether Starlink decides to start terminating service to those who violate the terms of service is yet to be seen.

Didn’t mean to suggest that they couldn’t provision their system to stop people from using their terminals while in motion, only that they don’t presently have that capability. Dish is trying to force them to add it, not because people using Starlink terminals in motion interferes with their service, but just to screw with Starlink because it threatens their obsolete business and huge stranded investment in GEO satellites.

 

[ksanders]

The problem with Dish is really not that they use geostationary satellite technology...

The problem with dish is that they are in the broadcast content business.

That business loosing ground every day to streaming services.

One of the last holdouts to broadcast TV is the RV industry. Think about iut, order folks that like their "cable tv".

Now Starlink and even cellular are eroding that last stronghold and Dish just wants to survive.

 

[HTurner]

Dish is in the 5g wireless game:


https://www.fiercewireless.com/5g/dish-confirms-its-offering-5g-more-20-us-population



https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/15/23168270/dish-network-5g-project-genesis-sign-up-issues-addresses

 

[MYTraveler]

Dish just wants to survive.

Their attacks against StarLink's mobile access are a little hypocritical since Dish knows many boaters use their service while underway.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

The RV package does not allow use while in motion as per the service agreement

The key term is "while in motion." I use Starlink while docked and at anchorage. It is stowed, a terminal command, while I am "in motion" -- movement from one place to another. Which is what is prohibited, this applies to all vehicles -- planes, trains, boats, RVs.

So I don't watch my tv (Directv) while underway. So is considered stationary when at anchor?

The RV plan allows you to travel outside your plan area? (Turn your system off when you leave Seattle and then turn it back on say in LA?

 

[HTurner]

So I don't watch my tv (Directv) while underway. So is considered stationary when at anchor?

The RV plan allows you to travel outside your plan area? (Turn your system off when you leave Seattle and then turn it back on say in LA?

I am assuming I am not in motion, that is, not traveling while at anchor. I become a houseboat. Like an RV who has parked. Yes there is sway, I am not absolutely static, but I am not in motion from area to another.



The RV plan has portability built into the plan. There is no static service address. Technically the whole continent is your service area.


For me, my home is my account address and my dock is my service address. I have the residential plan with the "portability" add on.

 

[dannc]

The problem with Dish is really not that they use geostationary satellite technology...

The problem with dish is that they are in the broadcast content business.

...

Dish is a candle burning at both ends.

One end is the broadcast business that is going away to cheaper, better quality streaming. The other end is Internet access and being geostationary is a problem. Dish has a few satellites which cost huge amounts of money. That reduces the bandwidth Dish can handle, which reduces the number of users but increase Dish's expense per subscriber. Plus, if not worse, Dish has higher latency which means VPNs are a problem. I can't work without a VPN and we use VPN for our home use. Dish is not even an option for us and many other people.

Dish has only 11 satellites and only two are less than 10 years old. The satellites have an expected life span of 15 years.... Tick Tock Tick Tock Tick Tock for Dish.

Dish is doomed unless they completely change the technology that is the basis for their business. If that is even possible.

Later,
Dan

 

[mbevins]

Dish could do a deal with Starlink to "broadcast" on their system. Customer clicks the appropriate button on home screen. Dish takes the spread and continues to survive.

 

[NoRain]

Dish’s problem is not StarLink, it’s its own sh1tty customer service and business model. Same as cable/broadcast TV in general. Forcing customers to buy a bunch of channels they don’t want just to get the one they do (channel groups), service contracts for two years, no suspending permitted, and the overall arrogance of their ilk that believes they can just shovel out what they want, vs being responsive to what customers *want*. Reminiscent of the taxi companies whining about UBER. I’m not a big Elon fan in general, but by gosh credit where credit is due.

 

[HTurner]

Dish is a candle burning at both ends.

One end is the broadcast business that is going away to cheaper, better quality streaming. The other end is Internet access and being geostationary is a problem. Dish has a few satellites which cost huge amounts of money. That reduces the bandwidth Dish can handle, which reduces the number of users but increase Dish's expense per subscriber. Plus, if not worse, Dish has higher latency which means VPNs are a problem. I can't work without a VPN and we use VPN for our home use. Dish is not even an option for us and many other people.

Dish has only 11 satellites and only two are less than 10 years old. The satellites have an expected life span of 15 years.... Tick Tock Tick Tock Tick Tock for Dish.

Dish is doomed unless they completely change the technology that is the basis for their business. If that is even possible.

Later,
Dan

Wrong, Dish is using terrestrial licenses for their 5G. Not satellite.

 

[dannc]

Wrong, Dish is using terrestrial licenses for their 5G. Not satellite.

If one does not have 5G, cable, DSL, or fiber, one has to use Dish's Internet which is as I said. We, and many people I know, do not have access to 5G, cable, or fiber. None of these services are likely to ever happen in our area. We do have DSL, but it sucks, 1.5 mbps is the best we can get.

If one has access to 5G, cable, fast DSL or fiber, why would one use Dish for Internet? Well, you are not, you are using a service bundled with another company that is completely dependent on the service being in your area.

Later,
Dan

 

[Simi 60]

I'm still having a tough time with the thinking that the crap shown on tv is actually worth paying money for.

 

[KnotYet]

I'm still having a tough time with the thinking that the crap shown on tv is actually worth paying money for.

I give thanks every day that some do!

 

[HTurner]

Thread drift! Plenty of LiFePO4 threads to comment on....

 

[slowgoesit]

Warning, Thread Drift.

Folks this is a thread about Starlink. It is NOT about batteries. Please stick to the subject of the post or post on an appropriate thread. Thanks. TF Site Team

 

[Wild Blue]

Finally Learned How to Use Starlink "Portability".... Update to Post #186

So I presumed the unit needed the current service address to be entered when using "portability" mode. When I entered my Canadian service address, Starlink would not accept a service address outside the USA, the country for which I ordered my Starlink originally. After Vancouver, it lost signal about 85 miles north of the WA USA and BC Canada border. I just powered it off.

Six days later, we arrived at Shearwater. I happened to power up Starlink, and was distracted by something for 15 minutes. When I checked back the unit was online.

Turns out the unit needs 10 to 20 minutes from power up, to reconnect with satellites. Apparently, it has an internal GPS, and doesn't need the service address entered!!!

From Shearwater north to Ketchikan we've had service whenever we needed it, for as long as wanted. There were a few times when I left Starlink online while motoring with continued, uninterrupted service.

Netflix, Prime, Hulu, WiFi calling and WiFi texting via cell phone all work perfectly. Although the crew is having fun fishing, they seem to be more entertained by the Netflix series Formula 1 Drive to Survive. Oh well....

See attached photo of Starlink antenna mounted at front of pilothouse....

Cheers, Alex on Wild Blue

 

[Helmsman]

Finally Learned How to Use Starlink "Portability".... Update to Post #186

So I presumed the unit needed the current service address to be entered when using "portability" mode. When I entered my Canadian service address, Starlink would not accept a service address outside the USA, the country for which I ordered my Starlink originally. After Vancouver, it lost signal about 85 miles north of the WA USA and BC Canada border. I just powered it off.

Six days later, we arrived at Shearwater. I happened to power up Starlink, and was distracted by something for 15 minutes. When I checked back the unit was online.

Turns out the unit needs 10 to 20 minutes from power up, to reconnect with satellites. Apparently, it has an internal GPS, and doesn't need the service address entered!!!

From Shearwater north to Ketchikan we've had service whenever we needed it, for as long as wanted. There were a few times when I left Starlink online while motoring with continued, uninterrupted service.

Netflix, Prime, Hulu, WiFi calling and WiFi texting via cell phone all work perfectly. Although the crew is having fun fishing, they seem to be more entertained by the Netflix series Formula 1 Drive to Survive. Oh well....

See attached photo of Starlink antenna mounted at front of pilothouse....

Cheers, Alex on Wild Blue

View attachment 129819

I like the spot you installed it. Good news on the gps.

 

[tpbrady]

Curious, in Ketchikan when the terminal is operating is it still tilted to the north?

Tom

 

[Wild Blue]

Tom:

It's not clear to me. This "array" antenna seems to have a wide view of the sky.

So we're at anchor at the S end of Gravina Island approx 12 NM from Ketchikan. Starlink is up and running.

The antenna is tilted about 15 degrees downward, pointed directly to the port side. As the boat slowly swings from 260 T to 200 T, the antenna didn't move.

Now we're 225 T, antenna tilted forward at 15 degrees.

I need more experience....

Alex

 

[tpbrady]

That’s interesting. Without knowing their pointing logic, the highest latitude thei satellites reach in their orbit is 53N and you are there. Since the satellites are at best directly overhead by looking southwest or southeast the terminal will have the best opportunity to see satellites. The lowest elevation angle the terminal will operate is 25 degrees from their FCC filing. This means the area of sky it can cover without moving is an inverted cone whose angle in any direction off the flat face is 50 degrees. Looking in the direction of the tilt that would mean about 25 degrees above the horizon. Any angle greater than that and antenna performance will drop off rapidly.

It sounds like the pointing algorithm says once lined up and tilted, don’t move unless rebooted. There might be something that says repoint after signal loss of so many minutes, but that would mean the antenna is probably moving which is a regulatory no no at this time.

So you are just north of Metlakatla?

Tom