Starlink RV is now Starlink Roam

[SteveK]

Post 22’s “tongue in cheek” reference to map is what I was trying to verify without success. I also suspect that it is going to work everywhere the map says there is coverage, including on the water near land. It’s just really annoying that they won’t say it outright, and it makes me wonder why.

IMO they will not commit with a direct answer while trying to upsell the maritime package. Fact is that it works, has worked in motion even though it is not supposed to. Only the new flat high performance is rated to work in motion and that is $2500 Can$, another upsell. The basic model is intended for stationary use by the RV crowd, set up at every stop.
I have mine in the box still, will install next month on boat. I expect it will work just fine.

 

[psneeld]

There might be something about proper licensing for Starlink in all this.

Using them in motion more than a little while ago was not permitted if I recall correctly.

 

[SteveK]

Using in motion was never permitted, was always in the small print, it just works on trawler speed. Some have suggested if less than 10 knots it will not register as moving. Then some techies eliminated the pole and motor and installed it flat, and it worked better. So Starlink came out with a flat model which then was allowed to be in motion at 4 times the cost.

 

[psneeld]

Using in motion was never permitted, was always in the small print, it just works on trawler speed. Some have suggested if less than 10 knots it will not register as moving. Then some techies eliminated the pole and motor and installed it flat, and it worked better. So Starlink came out with a flat model which then was allowed to be in motion at 4 times the cost.

Maybe under pressure from regulators Starlink decided to play a little hardball... I know it worked in motion but a lot of boaters seemed to just ignore the "rules" and now maybe it is coming back to haunt them.

 

[Fletcher500]

Maybe under pressure from regulators Starlink decided to play a little hardball... I know it worked in motion but a lot of boaters seemed to just ignore the "rules" and now maybe it is coming back to haunt them.

What is your information source regarding “pressure from regulators”? Is this conjecture on your part, or do you have something factual on this particular topic you can provide?

Secondly, if this is conjecture, who would apply such pressure within the US regulatory environment?

There are several people on here who are in the Sat Comm industry and providing some detailed information and clarifications when they can. The rest of us, myself included, can only guess as to how this plays out.

Lastly, I have the HP Flat and it works fantastic. Exceeded my expectations. With that said, I went in eyes wide open and realize its not a sure thing, but not everything in life is. In the mean time, I will enjoy the system.

 

[tpbrady]

I don’t think regulators really had anything to do with it. Starlink has consistently pushed the envelope on adhering to regulatory requirements. Their reason for differentiating between systems in motion and systems that move from one location to another has more to do with managing network resources and systems that move rapidly from cell to cell. An RV on an interstate or a fast moving boat require special handling and more computing resources as they have to be handed off from one cell to another.

The same thing happens in a cell network when you move between sites while driving. One of the reasons for not using cell phones on airplanes isn’t interference with aircraft systems, it’s the impact on various cell networks by rapidly moving phones, not to mention being inside an aluminum tunnel is a good place to try to use a cell phone.

Tom

 

[O C Diver]

My guess is that nothing is going to change for those of us who are near coastal or inland. At the speed of trawler, I just don't think it's worth the effort to target us.

Probably what's more driving this is people complaining when they lose their connection (like I did last month every time I went under a bridge). There are probably a lot more complaints by people driving or boating as opposed to stationary use.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

What is your information source regarding “pressure from regulators”? Is this conjecture on your part, or do you have something factual on this particular topic you can provide?

Secondly, if this is conjecture, who would apply such pressure within the US regulatory environment?

There are several people on here who are in the Sat Comm industry and providing some detailed information and clarifications when they can. The rest of us, myself included, can only guess as to how this plays out.

Lastly, I have the HP Flat and it works fantastic. Exceeded my expectations. With that said, I went in eyes wide open and realize its not a sure thing, but not everything in life is. In the mean time, I will enjoy the system.

This was not "my source" just someone else who was thinking...emphasize thinking...like me.

https://www.rvmobileinternet.com/st...from the start, but wasn't blocked previously.

SpaceX could also be responding to pressure from the FCC or other competitors complaining that some Starlink customers were breaking the terms of SpaceX's FCC license by using older hardware in a way that it was not licensed to be used.

 

[Darlin]

How well does starlink work in SE Alaska?

 

[tpbrady]

It works pretty well in SE Alaska. The further north you go it’s reliability declines slightly due to the number of satellites available above 53 degrees N. By May/June, Starlink should have about 50% of the planned satellites to serve northern latitudes in place so if anticipated launches take place service should be pretty solid all the way to Glacier Bay.

One thing to note, if you go to post 22 and click on the link, then look at SE Alaska you will see service is not available in a few parts of the coastal areas. I have talked to a couple of people who have confirmed one of these gaps in coverage. The gaps are at the southern end of Chatham St, at the entrance to Frederick Sound extending toward Stephens Passage, west of Craig, and across Dixon Entrance. These gaps seem to be in cells that for the most part are wholly over water (the one west of Craig seems to also include some land, but the lodge in Steamboat bay just south of that gap has service).

Tom

 

[twistedtree]

For those of you with ties to the industry, what are the legacy sat providers doing in response to Starlink? It may be inevitable that they bleed out and die, but I have to expect they will take steps to retain customers. Cutting prices may be the only lever they have to pull, and so far I haven't heard of that happening. I know my provider hasn't dropped prices. My plan is currently suspended, and unless I find myself in some uncovered Starlink location, I can't imagine ever reactivating it. I'm not ready to rip out the equipment yet, though I know countless people who have done just that.

 

[mvweebles]

IridiumGO Exec was recently introduced that claims 40x faster than standard IridiumGO, which makes it 22kbps up/88kbps down. And its still pretty expensive
https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/details/iridium-go-exec

As for geo-stationary satellite comms, well, that will remain expensive and usage based with low data caps. If history serves (telco being Exhibit #1; cable tv being #2), they will enforce contractual lock-ups and milk an ever-shrinking customer pool. If you've never read "The Innovators Dilemma," predicts the cyclye pretty well. In short, once you have a profitable business, it's difficult to justify investments in disruptive technology that will cannabilize your base. It partially explains why DJIA companies listed in 1950 are mostly no longer DJIA listed today (Kodak, ASARCO, Sears, Woolworth, International Harvestor, etc.). Law of the jungle....

Peter

 

[tpbrady]

TT,

Both Hughes and Viasat ran into the same problem a couple of years ago before Starlink entered the picture. They ran out of capacity. As Starlink came onto the scene, they couldn't deliver more gigabytes as they didn’t have the capacity to do it even as they lost customers. Delays in launching their latest generation satellites (Jupiter 3 and Viasat 3) didn’t help. Viasat 3 is on schedule to go up April 18 and Jupiter 3 sometime in May. Viasat put out some new plans associated with Viasat 3, but they generally don’t seem to compete well with Starlink. I think both companies anticipate losing customers to Starlink and fiber deployments in rural areas. There is always a subset of customers that will stay with them as they are happy with the service and are resistant to change.

In addition both companies have a large commercial market, which is pretty sticky as they are managed services with fairly tight service agreements, something Starlink doesn’t provide yet. With their new satellites their cost per unit of bandwidth should allow them to beat Starlink and Kuiper price wise as long 600ms of latency isn’t a problem.

When I retired from the USAF 29 years ago and went to work for a small company that wanted to look into expanding out of satellite services into the internet, I came to the conclusion that an internet service provider was always in a “tail chase” for bandwidth. I think that was a lucky guess.

Tom

 

[twistedtree]

IridiumGO Exec was recently introduced that claims 40x faster than standard IridiumGO, which makes it 22kbps up/88kbps down. And its still pretty expensive
https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/details/iridium-go-exec

Compared to Starlink you get:
- 1,000,000 times less data allowed for the same monthly rate

- 1,000 times slower
- 3x the equipment cost
- 1 year commitment vs 1 monthly.
- Only really works with specialized, dedicated apps, not generic internet services.



The only reason I can see that you would even consider this is if it's REALLY important to you to have 1) fringe incremental coverage, and/or 2) a bit more portable. And it's a big price to pay for those couple of things. So I think their addressable market went from "every boat, RV, or hiker who goes outside of cell coverage", to "only people who go outside of Starlink coverage, or need greater portability (e.g. hikers). I'll bet sales have dropped by 10x to 100x.

As for geo-stationary satellite comms, well, that will remain expensive and usage based with low data caps. If history serves (telco being Exhibit #1; cable tv being #2), they will enforce contractual lock-ups and milk an ever-shrinking customer pool. If you've never read "The Innovators Dilemma," predicts the cyclye pretty well. In short, once you have a profitable business, it's difficult to justify investments in disruptive technology that will cannabilize your base. It partially explains why DJIA companies listed in 1950 are mostly no longer DJIA listed today (Kodak, ASARCO, Sears, Woolworth, International Harvestor, etc.). Law of the jungle....

Peter

Agreed, however I would argue that the Telco industry has done a pretty good job reinventing itself. Two of the local operating companies (Baby Bells) have emerged as Verizon and ATT, riding the switch over to cellular and mostly shedding land lines. And they have transitioned from annual contracts, low data caps, and call rates by the minute, to unlimited calling, increasingly including international calling, unlimited data, portability, etc. I think one of the their big failings has been universal coverage, and I think that's more a failing of regulators. Where I live, there STILL isn't cell service, for example. And past federal funding to create universal coverage has all just disappeared into the swill pile with no increase in coverage, at all. This is an age-old problem with utilities where the most profitable approach is to cherry pick locations where you can make the most $$ and pass over the unprofitable locations. But that fails to serve the public need or public objective.


When cable first started to be deployed, some states were smart and only licensed providers on the condition that they served EVERYONE equally. I lived for a long time in a pretty rural part of a pretty rural town, but we got cable at the same time as the rest of the town. Where I live now, they didn't impose that requirement, so cable runs along the main highway (a rural kind of highway, not an interstate highway), has branches to populated pools of houses, and that's it. Those of us further off the beaten path and not clustered with other houses don't have it, and never will. It will simply never happen at this point.



Oh, and I don't think Verizon and ATT have the changes they have "voluntarily". They would still be charging for every minute, every MB, with locked in contracts if they could. It has all evolved and changed because of competition. Companies like T-Mobile have broken the business model as part of trying to win customers, and that has forced the behemoths to adapt. Slowly, but surely.


So will the ViaSat and VSat companies become Verizon or ATT, or will they become Kodak or Sears? Right now my money would be on Kodak and Sears, but you never know.

 

[mvweebles]

TT - we see the same thing only differently. You see ATT/Verizon's migration to cellular services as an adaptation, I see it as a retreat. Mobile communications is an incredibly competitive and low-margin business with a highly transient and permiscuous customer base. The telcos should own internet provisioning but they don't. They should own web-server provisioning but AWS and Azure (Microsoft) do. They should own data security, but they don't. For the last 20+ years, telcos have been looking over their shoulders instead of looking forward. Which is exactly what the Sat providers have done.

I have a hunch that the one Big Thing that Elon Musk did was made a global business case. By that I mean his business case started with "The planet has 8-billion inhabitants....." Pretty audacious but that's what it takes to justify launching a bunch of rockets. There are a number of comapnies - including ATT and Hughes - who could have made the same business case but didn't.

Just as Loran-C hung around for decades after GPS was mainstream, there will be niche players. I think Iridium has a place, especially as Musk continuously tinkers with plans and deployment.

Peter

 

[Fletcher500]

Interesting to hear ViaSat mentioned. When I was working, I would visit their Carlsbad CA HQ several times per year starting around 2009. They went gang busters from 2014 to 2019 building a complex that was Google like. Numerous office buildings and electronic test labs filled with 20 something year olds right out of college with bikes, trikes, and lattte machines in every corner. I was there for the building/code construction aspects and never got very involved with what they were doing as far as the satellite communication systems. I retired in early 2020, and lost track of what they have been up to since then.

 

[Hippocampus]

Musk may get into trouble. Ford has deeper pockets than Musk. They’ve gone whole hog into EV cars/trucks at a price point that’s competitive with support, deal network, financing and marketing in place. They don’t carry his baggage with the high end of the market so sales to that segment which has the greatest profit margin (luxury and toy pickups) aren’t put off by him.Even Amazon didn’t want to deal with him and ordered their fleet from Rivian.

Amazon has created a one stop universe. Shopping, delivery, entertainment, information etc. there’s an advantage to having one part of your business be symbiotic to other parts. Would expect their satellite system to integrate with their entertainment and delivery systems. Warehousing, trucks on the road regardless of location and customers. Musk’s universe has some integration but don’t think the nature of the products allow this to occur to the same degree. Having customers who have poor or non existent internet access get their access from Amazon would probably enhance sales on their core business if marketed correctly. Buying a Tesla doesn’t incentive you to get Starlink. So Amazon has a leg up in having costs contained in their universe and expansion of any planet helping the other planets.

For those who need or want and can afford no failure, no limit comm systems would not be surprised if there comes along a package that can use any satellite network and any cell system. Program decides which gives best speeds,best uninterrupted stream and there you go.

 

[Wild Blue]

Our Starlink operational experience has changed from last year.

We purchased and installed Starlink RV on the boat in May of 2022. After a short learning curve, the unit was operational pretty much 24/7 aboard the boat while in Port or underway. We cruised from Anacortes, through WA, BC, Ketchikan and around Prince of Wales Island with very little down time. The unit operated 24/7 on the September ride down to Ventura CA.

The boat was moored for service from October until earlier this month. Starlink allowed us to monitor the boat's weather and battery remotely 24/7.

March 6 (20 days ago), we departed Ventura for Anacortes. Within about 30 minutes we noticed our Starlink had disconnected. Roughly 15 minutes after each power off reset, the unit will reconnect with internet. This connection holds for 10 to 15 minutes, then another disconnect.

We adjusted to this new operational mode by resetting Starlink whenever we wanted to get caught up on our emails, texts, or make a short wifi phone call. Fairly inconvenient, but workable.

Once we moored in Half Moon Bay CA, Starlink reconnected and stayed connected during our entire stationary moorage.

After mucking around on the net, we upgraded to Starlink Roam, and continued our cruise up the Coast. Unfortunately we had no improvement in the Starlink uptime while the boat was moving. This new status quo lasted until our arrival in Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes. At that point Starlink reconnected and stayed connected.

Questions:

1. Could it be that the Roam upgrade takes effect on the next billing cycle?

2. We're using the rectangular "dishy" antenna. If we pay the $2500 for the stationary marine antenna, will in motion connection be restored?

Thanks...Alex

 

[tpbrady]

Alex,

I know it’s a hard map to read but look at this link, https://www.starlink.com/map, and look at your route up the coast and see if you passed through areas where the map shows service is not available. If a cell touches land, it is probably available with a roaming system. If you are outside of those areas in the ocean, Starlink is probably only allowing maritime accounts access, something they didn’t have when you were last out.

Tom

 

[SteveK]

Alex, I just finished watching video a part of which pointed to disconnection if travelling over 8.5 knots for a considerable time. 10 MPH was rumored in the past year as well. Only the $2500 one is allowed in motion, but travelling at less than above speeds seems to allow movement.

 

[Sababa]

Our Starlink operational experience has changed from last year.

We purchased and installed Starlink RV on the boat in May of 2022. After a short learning curve, the unit was operational pretty much 24/7 aboard the boat while in Port or underway. We cruised from Anacortes, through WA, BC, Ketchikan and around Prince of Wales Island with very little down time. The unit operated 24/7 on the September ride down to Ventura CA.

The boat was moored for service from October until earlier this month. Starlink allowed us to monitor the boat's weather and battery remotely 24/7.

March 6 (20 days ago), we departed Ventura for Anacortes. Within about 30 minutes we noticed our Starlink had disconnected. Roughly 15 minutes after each power off reset, the unit will reconnect with internet. This connection holds for 10 to 15 minutes, then another disconnect.

We adjusted to this new operational mode by resetting Starlink whenever we wanted to get caught up on our emails, texts, or make a short wifi phone call. Fairly inconvenient, but workable.

Once we moored in Half Moon Bay CA, Starlink reconnected and stayed connected during our entire stationary moorage.

After mucking around on the net, we upgraded to Starlink Roam, and continued our cruise up the Coast. Unfortunately we had no improvement in the Starlink uptime while the boat was moving. This new status quo lasted until our arrival in Cap Sante Marina, Anacortes. At that point Starlink reconnected and stayed connected.

Questions:

1. Could it be that the Roam upgrade takes effect on the next billing cycle?

2. We're using the rectangular "dishy" antenna. If we pay the $2500 for the stationary marine antenna, will in motion connection be restored?

Thanks...Alex

How far off shore were you on the run up the coast, and how fast were you going?

 

[Wild Blue]

Tom, Steve, Sababa:

Our distance offshore varied from a mile or two around points, to as much as 32 miles off the Columbia River.

I couldn't correlate the connection to the distance offshore. It seemed when we power reset the unit, wherever we were, it would connect for 10 minutes or so then disconnect. Apparently it was taking that time to determine our gps speed before disconnecting.

Our speed averaged around 8 knots. There were long periods of 7.5 knots and 9.5 knots.

Question:

Is there Starlink documentation that states that the $2500 antenna allows for in motion operation?

I'm happy to pay the extra $15 per month for the in-motion service. The marine antenna obviously is an unnecessary expense given the existing antenna works so well. What a waste of resources, when a few lines of code would allow us early Starlink adopters to continue our in-motion service

"If Starlink account has in-motion service, and dishy serial number less than #nnnnn (where #nnnnn highest serial number before Marina antenna was offered), then allow in-motion operation"

Jeez...I'm almost 75 years old and still writing code.....

 

[SteveK]

Does Starlink Roam allow for in-motion use?
Yes. In-motion use is supported for users with Starlink Roam Regional service meeting the following criteria:

Using Flat High Performance Starlink
Starlink is securely installed with the Wedge mount included with the Flat High Performance Starlink kit.
Using Flat High Performance Starlink while in-motion without the Wedge mount, or using any other Starlink model will void the limited warranty of your Starlink.

In-motion service is not yet available with the Global Roam Plan.

The service area is still land based with bleed into the water

 

[sjisailor]

It seems the question is whether the service was turned off repeatedly due to (1) being on the water, (2) being in motion, or (3) both. The flat dish would fix #2 but not #1. I suppose one way to test would be for someone to use it while underway on a canal.

But in any case it highlights the unfortunate uncertainty and potential for change at any moment with such services

 

[Sababa]

It seems the question is whether the service was turned off repeatedly due to (1) being on the water, (2) being in motion, or (3) both. The flat dish would fix #2 but not #1. I suppose one way to test would be for someone to use it while underway on a canal.

But in any case it highlights the unfortunate uncertainty and potential for change at any moment with such services

My evasive support experience concerning coverage notwithstanding, I bet this has to do with being in motion rather than on the water. If they were geofencing use on the water within the regional land-based coverage area, I would expect you wouldn’t be able to connect at all. The fact that you are able to reconnect for a little while after power cycling before losing the connection again suggests to me that they are cutting the connection based on detecting motion over a period of time.

I will definitely be monitoring and reporting on the connection for my HSF dish when I am moving away from shore this season, though I don’t expect to be underway more than a mile from land until I cross the Strait of Georgia on the way to Desolation Sound in July.

 

[tpbrady]

The best information I have from people using roaming systems in SE Alaska is that Starlink Roam works in motion if you are slow (probably less than 10 mph) and in a cell that includes some portion of land. Starlink has divided the world into cells that are roughly 15 miles in diameter. Due to the way circular cells overlap each cell ends of being hexagonal. So generally speaking, if you are close to land and in a cell that overlaps the land, service is available. If you look at the Starlink coverage availability map, you can see how this works on coastal areas with a jagged edge that is different distances from shore depending on the cell.

A system that is classified as maritime (the smallest plan being $1000 a month) are handled differently than a roaming system. Starlink’s network management system has to assign resources to whatever cell a maritime system is in and when it crosses a cell boundary, assign resources to the new cell. So if a roaming system goes into a cell without land coverage, that system won’t have service as the network is not allowed to assign a resource in that cell to a roaming system. When you enter the coverage area again, you may have to reboot Starlink so the network knows you are back.

At least that seems to be how it works. The only real big unknown is will Starlink change their network management logic especially the speed gate.

Tom

 

[Fletcher500]

The attached service map for SoCal is the same for residential and Roam (HP/Flat).

Coverage is shown from land, to about 5 miles out along entire coast.

They are also showing coverage for all of the offshore Channel Islands and these vary from 20 to 50 miles offshore which I was aware of when I bought the unit.

In addition, the most travelled to Island of these is Catalina, and the main traffic corridor between the mainland and Catalina is also shown as SL covered. This is also the travel path many of the passenger ferrys take to and from the Island.

I realize this does not apply to most peoples cruising ground, just sharing it as its interesting.

 

[Sababa]

I had continuous good connectivity with the the flat high performance dish running at ten knots from Shilshole to Mystery Bay State Park near Port Townsend today.

 

[Doug_Snider]

For those thinking about installing StarLink, I would like to share our very unsatisfactory experience. We had a high performance dish professionally installed on our new Helmsman 38E. It would not connect. After waiting several days for a response to our service request, we received a shipping label to return the system and were notified that a replacement kit was being sent. After several weeks, we received a new kit. Not knowing which component was defective and not wanting to uninstall everything, we tried connecting the original power supply to the new dish. The problem persisted. We then tried the replacement power supply with the original dish. We immediately connected and has download speeds around 176 MBits. Rather than uninstall the original dish and cable, we left them in place and returned the components we hadn’t installed. Within a few days, the system said we had no active account. We submitted another ticket and, after a two week wait, we were informed that we should have installed the entire replacement kit and not just the defective component. After a month as a subscriber, we have no service and only a shipping label to send everything back. They are not sending us a new kit. StarLink customer service seems to have an Elon Musk attitude. The fact that they claim they are overwhelmed is not a good statement for their product. Now we’re trying to decide if we should try again or give up on StarLink. In hindsight, we should have waited for a more reliable system with actual customer support.

 

[psneeld]

For those thinking about installing StarLink, I would like to share our very unsatisfactory experience. We had a high performance dish professionally installed on our new Helmsman 38E. It would not connect. After waiting several days for a response to our service request, we received a shipping label to return the system and were notified that a replacement kit was being sent. After several weeks, we received a new kit. Not knowing which component was defective and not wanting to uninstall everything, we tried connecting the original power supply to the new dish. The problem persisted. We then tried the replacement power supply with the original dish. We immediately connected and has download speeds around 176 MBits. Rather than uninstall the original dish and cable, we left them in place and returned the components we hadn’t installed. Within a few days, the system said we had no active account. We submitted another ticket and, after a two week wait, we were informed that we should have installed the entire replacement kit and not just the defective component. After a month as a subscriber, we have no service and only a shipping label to send everything back. They are not sending us a new kit. StarLink customer service seems to have an Elon Musk attitude. The fact that they claim they are overwhelmed is not a good statement for their product. Now we’re trying to decide if we should try again or give up on StarLink. In hindsight, we should have waited for a more reliable system with actual customer support.

It's something about the dish and the router I believe that has an issue and cannot be mixed and matched....even if they temporarily work when connected. Couldn't find a link but I believe I read that when I first started investigating Starlink.