Starlink RV is now Starlink Roam

[mvweebles]

This should be interesting to watch. Starlink came in at a price point that was an absolute game changer. People bought in long before the satellite population was where it is now. They will continue to buy in until Amazon has good satellite population. So it then becomes a question of whether existing customers will switch (buy new hardware) or stay with a proven system. All of this is predicated on Amazon delivering on time (actually the 3rd party rockets delivering on time).



I have no idea whether Starlink is profitable or not at this point. But I would imagine revenue coming in from monthly service has to be canceling out the cost of adding new satellites.



Given the above, I would rather be in Starlink's position with a massive inbound cash flow to offset infrastructure development, as opposed to Amazon's position of building a lot of the systems (huge cash outlay with minimal revenue coming in) and hoping they will come.



Ted

All good points, but Amazon has an incredibly robust war chest. They have no issue building a 10-year business case.

Amazon is teasing a 7-inch square antenna with 100mb thru put. Anyone remember the enormous satellite dishes in backyards?

I wouldn't bet against Amazon. There's an old saying the second mouse gets the cheese.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

An “ultra-compact” model, which Amazon says is its smallest and most affordable, is a 7-inch square design that weighs about 1 pound and will offer speeds up to 100 Mbps.

SteveK - clip your post and paste it to your refrigerator. See how it wears in 5 years. And pickup a copy of "The Innovators Dillema." Explains why AOL is a punchline.

Amazon started out as a bookseller. They have slain dozens of incredibly mighty foes to dominate. Not a perfect track record, but tough competition.

Peter

SpaceX partners with T-Mobile to provide cellular service across the entire U.S. SpaceX has partnered with T-Mobile in its first major step towards ending cellular dead zones,

Musk also challenged the other majors to join forces to cover the world with cell service.
Do you really stick stuff on the refrigerator?

 

[O C Diver]

All good points, but Amazon has an incredibly robust war chest. They have no issue building a 10-year business case.

Amazon is teasing a 7-inch square antenna with 100mb thru put. Anyone remember the enormous satellite dishes in backyards?

I wouldn't bet against Amazon. There's an old saying the second mouse gets the cheese.

Peter

Actually the hardware and its price is meaningless. This isn’t like buying a $5K to $10k KVH antenna. Starlink's antenna is equal to 4 months of satellite service. Realistically, don't expect to see Amazon selling strong before the end of next year as most aren't going to climb onboard till the satellite population guarantees really good service. In Elon world, I'm guessing antennas will have gone through 2 more generations (evolutions) before Amazon has sold their first 100,000. And then there's the service price. Oh, that's right, they can tell you the price of the antenna but the monthly service cost.

Ted

 

[magna 6882]

I got the starlink system for the boat last year and the performance was really good for puget sound and desolation in canada. We used it on our 6000 mile rv trip, December thru mid February. as we crossed the us with dismal results. Since i paused the service when we got back and after the price increase i am not sure the speed or availability will be a puget sound boating option. I will just use my cell hotspot plan if rv travling in 2023. I will be confirming speed and availability with other boaters before activating the service this summer.My rv download speed most of the middle of the country was less then 4 MBS.

 

[Sababa]

My guess at what they mean by “land-based location” is a location where the satellite can connect to the internet directly through a ground station instead of through laser connections to other satellites as upon the open ocean. I doubt they would attempt to identify and geofence users who are on the water within a cell that is being served by a ground station.

As for current speed in the PNW, I had great performance including at peak streaming times on a trip I took to Anacortes last week.

 

[Don L]

It is working good on anchor at Cat Island Bahamas. So I have no reasons to overthink it.

 

[tpbrady]

A couple of things to on Kuiper/Amazon. They will be operating in Ka band both on the user terminals and gateways (they will probably also go to V band or higher). At Ka band their throughput and availability will probably be much lower than the advertised maximums as the weather deteriorates. The last item is for all of you that venture north in the summer, Kuiper’s highest orbital inclination is now at 51 degrees which means any kind of service to Alaska is not likely. Starlink at an inclination of 53 degrees worked reliably up to Petersburg before launches into the 70 and 97 degree inclinations which has started expanding coverage further north. Kuiper at this point has not filed for any orbits greater than 51 that I am aware of.

Tom

 

[Fletcher500]

Tpbrady and Sababa, it sounds like you both know this subject well and I have been reading all of your posts over the past few months which have been helpful.

 

[Sababa]

Tpbrady and Sababa, it sounds like you both know this subject well and I have been reading all of your posts over the past few months which have been helpful.

Glad to hear it! TF is definitely the friendliest place on the Internet.

 

[tpbrady]

I think I have learned far more here than I have contributed. Everybody keep it up. If you have any Starlink, satellite TV, or any space type system questions, I’ve been working in that industry for more than 30 years so PM me. I can honestly say Starlink has brought the industry further forward in 3 years than in the 27 years before that. They capitalized on technical developments in antenna technology, network management, spacecraft operations, satellite construction, and their own launch platform to get their network going. I just wish they had learned some of the customer service lessons the rest of the industry learned over the last 25 years as they moved into the consumer business. The higher level plans have much better support in place in my limited experience, but those customers are paying the big dollars.

Tom

 

[slowgoesit]

The biggest advantage Starlink has, and will have in the foreseeable future is that the mother company controls both Starlink, and the launch capabilities (Space X). Hard to beat that.
Just did speed test, 26 down, 12 up, ping was a high at 107, but overall acceptable. We're on the dock in Port Orchard, WA, Puget Sound

 

[fryedaze]

Except SpaceX wouldn’t be SpaceX without Musk. Wacky though he may be, he is the only common denominator between Tesla/Solar City, SpaceX, Starlink, Boring Co., Neuralink, Paypal and Twitter. The jury is still out on the Twitter adventure/debacle, but the others have or will change the industries they are in like no other group of companies in modern history. Seems like a pretty good legacy for a wacky guy still in his 50s.

I have a different opinion on the "Showman" Mr Musk. He will eventually go the way of PT Barnum, Ringling and Flagler. His Mars adventure could be the drain that sucks him down. As a taxpayer I have no time for the billion governments have paid to support his businesses.

 

[4fun1]

Starlink may have competition soon from Amazon.

Amazon gives first look at Project Kuiper satellite internet antennas
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/14/amazon-first-look-project-kuiper-satellite-internet-antennas.html

 

[SteveK]

A convenience store moves into the neighborhood within walking distance and immediately thrives.
Success brings a second store, now they both have trouble making a profit.
That is the part of free enterprise I have always scratched my head over.

Many years ago we had Shaw cable competing with Rogers here on both coasts.
They saw the light and sat down at the table and Shaw took the west, Rogers the east. All good for many years for both.
Right now Telus is trying to take over the cable market with fibre optics. Shaw bought Global and is going downhill for doing so.
Amusing to watch

 

[psneeld]

The old saying that "He who commands the high ground, has the tactical advantage" may apply here too.

Musk/Space X seem to have most of the world beat in inexpensive rocketry so sneaking up as a competitor on them may be a real challenge for anyone. Especially as this explodes into every cell phone being a sat phone in the not too distant future.

 

[Simi 60]

I don't care about the man, I care about the product
While it works I use it - when it doesn't I won't
Simple.

 

[psneeld]

I don't care about the man, I care about the product
While it works I use it - when it doesn't I won't
Simple.

How true these days... product versus the person behind it.

There are lots of life changing things brought about though the centuries.

Time really hasn't changed the fact that civilization changing products ultimately shows that average person could not really care about the inventor/designer/producer....etc...etc...just the benefit from it.

The person behind the genius isn't always who we might hope it is.

 

[Simi 60]

How true these days... product versus the person behind it.

There are lots of life changing things brought about though the centuries.

Time really hasn't changed the fact that civilization changing products ultimately shows that average person could not really care about the inventor/designer/producer....etc...etc...just the benefit from it.

The person behind the genius isn't always who we might hope it is.

I don't think you quite get my point.
It was that my decision on buying a product is not based on what strange behaviour the inventor may or may not have.

If the product works I'm on it.
I don't care if you dress up in Mario Bros. outfits, send space dragons with lasers to the Ukraine or wear tissue box slippers

 

[psneeld]

I don't think you quite get my point.
It was that my decision on buying a product is not based on what strange behaviour the inventor may or may not have.

If the product works I'm on it.
I don't care if you dress up in Mario Bros. outfits, send space dragons with lasers to the Ukraine or wear tissue box slippers

No I got it.... I just replied a bit unclear.

Look at a lot of the people behind major changes in civilization or new ideas... not exactly the cool guy in the family tree.

 

[tpbrady]

If both Kuiper and Starlink compete with each other that’s fine. What bothers me is the US Government is throwing $billions$ at provide broadband to the unserved effectively competing with them. Other governments around the world are doing the same thing if they can afford it. If one or both don’t survive, the government may be part of the reason. I don’t want or expect the government to subsidize broadband on my boat, but neither do I want them to be the reason I lose the broadband I just got.

Tom

 

[hollywood8118]

A convenience store moves into the neighborhood within walking distance and immediately thrives.
Success brings a second store, now they both have trouble making a profit.
That is the part of free enterprise I have always scratched my head over.

Many years ago we had Shaw cable competing with Rogers here on both coasts.
They saw the light and sat down at the table and Shaw took the west, Rogers the east. All good for many years for both.
Right now Telus is trying to take over the cable market with fibre optics. Shaw bought Global and is going downhill for doing so.
Amusing to watch

If that was true about competition we would only have one cell company nationwide.
Here we are also talking about possibly serving the entire planet.

Hollywood

 

[O C Diver]

As a taxpayer I have no time for the billion governments have paid to support his businesses.

I agree with you, but this seems like one of those rare times that I might be able to benefit from something that my federal tax dollars have subsidized.

Ted

 

[fryedaze]

I agree with you, but this seems like one of those rare times that I might be able to benefit from something that my federal tax dollars have subsidized.

Ted

People buying E cars, solar and Starlink have benefited, and good for them. I am just on the sidelines being an old grump. I probably wouldn't have such a sour opinion of old Elon if he would just keep his mouth shut.

 

[psneeld]

People buying E cars, solar and Starlink have benefited, and good for them. I am just on the sidelines being an old grump. I probably wouldn't have such a sour opinion of old Elon if he would just keep his mouth shut.

Why?.... nobody else keeps their mouths shut. TFis a good example.

The trouble with being famous or infamous is that you are under scrutiny for everything you do.

Some kid wasn't posting the whereabouts of my boat travels like one did for Musk's jet.

 

[mdstrum]

I have had Starlink on our boat for a year now and 2nd unit from house, the service is amazing, there are many that jump to conclusions I am more of the type to wait and see, down in Southern Calif cell coverage on water is not great but with Starlink we work remotely, we have used in Mexico and from RV in very remote areas with no services and it has be fantastic. Hard to complain, I think they are growing and learning an adjusting to various markets and users remember Satlint internet is not same and cellular...apples and oranges. If expect the same you will be disappointed. Downloads are super fast, upload is slower but totally from for VPN remote connections, not great to upload a large video but you stream anything and everything at HD no problem....my point is those have it should just enjoy it and see what changes come and not panic, those do not have no clue what they are missing.

 

[Sababa]

I had the following maddening and evasive exchange about what the change in the TOS for Roam means for coastal cruisers. They will not answer whether Roam will work on inland and coastal waters where the service map says there is coverage.

IAN CROSBY
3/15/23
The new terms of service for the “roam” plan to which I have been migrated say that service is available at “land-based” destinations. Does this include coastal locations where satellites are able to connect to the Internet directly through ground stations as opposed to through other satellites, or will I no longer be able to access the service from the water?
COREY
3/21/23
Hello Ian Thank you for getting in contact with us here at the Starlink Customer Support Center, and we apologize in our delay to get back to you. We have been inundated in a recent surge in customer inquiries and are navigating through them as fast as we can. Your continued patience is much appreciated. I do apologize for the delayed response. Starlink Roaming “Regional” Plan allows you to access Services at any land-based destination within the continent. So unfortunately you will not be able to use your Roaming (RV) equipment on a boat. But we do offer Starlink Maritime, Starlink Maritime delivers high-speed, low-latency internet with 220+ Mbps download while on land and out at sea. From merchant vessels to oil rigs to premium yachts, Starlink Maritime allows you to connect from some of the most remote waters across the world, just like you would in the office or at home. If you are interested in our Maritime ill send over the steps exciting customers can take to purchase this equipment. Maritime sign up 1.Log into your account at Starlink.com 2.Select the "+" icon in the "Your Locations" on your account home page 3.Select the service plan type you would like to order. 4.Select 'Checkout Now" If you have any more questions regarding your Starlink account please feel free to reach out to this ticket directly or you may submit a new ticket. Thank you
IAN CROSBY
3/21/23
I'm confused by your response because the FAQ says that Roam can be ordered wherever service is available on the service map, which includes inland and coastal waters. I understand that the maritime plan is necessary for service on the high seas, but are you saying that the service will stop working on inland and coastal waters identified as covered (see example) on the map linked in the FAQ?
Screenshot 2023-03-21 at 2.38.44 PM.png Screenshot 2023-03-21 at 2.49.52 PM.png
COREY
3/22/23
Hello Ian Thank you for your response. Terms of service Section 3.3 IN-MOTION USE PROHIBITED FOR UNDESIGNATED KITS AND COUNTRIES. YOU ARE PROHIBITED FROM INSTALLING OR USING A KIT ON A MOVING VEHICLE OR VESSEL UNLESS STARLINK HAS DESIGNATED YOUR SPECIFIC KIT MODEL AND/OR MOUNT FOR IN-MOTION USE AND HAS OBTAINED ALL REQUIRED IN-MOTION APPROVALS IN THE COUNTRY OF USE. SERVICES IN-MOTION ON A VEHICLE OR VESSEL https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1020-91087-64 The roaming kit you currently own is for land not sea now you may gain service if you are on the beach or dock at the port but your kit is not program for sea usage. Thank you
IAN CROSBY
3/22/23
I have the flat high-speed antenna that is approved for mobile use. Are you saying I’m not allowed to have it installed on my boat? I’d really appreciate a straight answer from you about whether the Roam service category for “land-based destinations” as defined by Starlink includes coverage in the coastal and inland waters identified as being covered in the availability map linked in the FAQ.
COREY
3/22/23
Hello Ian Thank you for your response I tried to reach out via phone but it appears I have miss you. As stated in my previous response the equipment you currently own is for in-land purpose only so to answer your questions no you will be able to use your equipment on a boat. Now if you choose to take your equipment out on a boat you will receive little to no service. Thank you
IAN CROSBY
3/22/23
I just paid $2,500 for the flat high performance dish. I don’t recall and can’t find anywhere in the terms of service where it prohibits installing that equipment on a vessel or states that it is only for use on land. Can you please point out where it says that? If that is in fact the case, then I need to decide whether to return it or not. So can you please give me a straight answer about whether it will in fact provide best effort service on the water in the areas that are indicated as being covered by the Roam plan on the map or whether it will be geofenced to work only on the land. I didn’t recognize your number but I will pick up if you call before 10:15 pacific.
COREY
3/22/23
Hello Ian The information provided in my previous response regarding In-motion I will like paste it once more along with the link and section your find this information. Terms of service Section 3.3 IN-MOTION USE PROHIBITED FOR UNDESIGNATED KITS AND COUNTRIES. YOU ARE PROHIBITED FROM INSTALLING OR USING A KIT ON A MOVING VEHICLE OR VESSEL UNLESS STARLINK HAS DESIGNATED YOUR SPECIFIC KIT MODEL AND/OR MOUNT FOR IN-MOTION USE AND HAS OBTAINED ALL REQUIRED IN-MOTION APPROVALS IN THE COUNTRY OF USE. SERVICES IN-MOTION ON A VEHICLE OR VESSEL LINK-https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1020-91087-64 Thank you have a great day!
IAN CROSBY
3/22/23
This is not responsive. As I said, I have a *flat high performance dish.* Starlink *has* specifically designated my specific kit model for in-motion use. See https://www.starlink.com/specifications?spec=3 and attached image from your web site. According to the language you quote, installation or use of my kit is *not prohibited* on either a moving vehicle *or vessel.* Your RV terms of service in effect when I bought this kit said: "Starlink for RV allows you to access Services at any destination where Starlink provides active coverage, within the same continent." That included, according to the coverage map referenced in connection with that statement, coastal and in-shore waters, and I in fact have received service in those locations. After I purchased my flat high performance dish, you replaced the RV plan with the Roam plan. The Roam terms of service state: "Starlink Roaming “Regional” Plan allows you to access Services at any land-based destination within the continent that you place your Order." It is not clear whether "land-based" here means "on land" or also includes "adjacent to land." The Roam terms of service reference suggest the latter by linking to the same coverage map that shows coverage at inshore locations close to the land. In order to allow me to figure out what to do with this very expensive piece of equipment that I recently bought from you for permitted use on my boat in covered inshore areas in accordance with your terms of service that were in effect at the time, will you please just give a straightforward answer to this question: Will I continue to receive best-effort service with my flat high-performance dish everywhere, including on the water, that is colored blue in and around North America on this map: https://www.starlink.com/map? Yes or no?
Screenshot 2023-03-22 at 3.09.34 PM.png
COREY
3/23/23
Hello Ian Thank you for your response. To answer your question you will receive service anywhere also long as you are in the same continent. But we have subscription types that allow you to gain service air, land, and or sea/ water. The equipment you own will be consider land based equipment which mean you can only use it on land. If you are to take your equipment at sea or water your will receive either intermitted service or no service due to your subscription type. Thank you
IAN CROSBY
3/23/23
You still have not answered my question. Yes or no: Will I receive service with my Roam plan anywhere that is colored blue on the availability map?
This issue has been closed. If you still need help with this issue, you can reopen it. If you have a different issue, please submit a new request.

 

[Fletcher500]

It appears from the wording and grammar used in their response, that you were communicating with someone from another country. Philippines perhaps. I appreciate your persistence, but I don't think the call center personnel are going to give it to you straight when they are basically reading off a script for the various inquiries they deal with each day.

I am also wondering if even Starlink HQ knows the answers to those questions at this point.

 

[Mambo42]

@Sababa,

Thanks for posting your communication with Starlink. I just bought a Starlink RV package in Europe about 2 weeks before they changed the plan. With the old RV plan I would be able to have service in all the green areas on their map, which also included coastal waters and inland waters. I am using Starlink now on land and service is great, really happy with it.

Also for me it is completely unclear whether I will or won't have service when I connect to Starlink when on anchor in a bay. Then again, logic tells me that I should receive service. I doubt that they have installed a software program that can pinpoint everyone up to the last centimeter and cut them off when they are apparently on the water. It also would not serve Starlink to do this. The result would be that everyone would cancel their contract and that is not in the interest of Starlink.
Another issue with the new Roaming plan is that the USA is seen as 1 country, but Europe on the other hand consists of over 25 different countries. In the small print it says you can be out of your 'home address/country/continent' for no more than 2 months. However, in winter time the elderly take their RV's and move 6 months to Southern Europe. And we are talking serious numbers. This year all the campgrounds in Spain were loaded to the top with foreign RV's, we are talking tens of thousands RV's and that is just Spain. If Starlink is going to cut them off for being too long away from home............they will quit their subscription in a heartbeat.

At of the end of next week I will be back on the boat and we will be on anchor soon after that, so then I will find out what the changes really mean. To be honest I do expect service to work normal, but I will report it here. As a back up I have a mobile data plan as well, but hope it won't be necessary to use anymore.

Now with regard to competition and the future of Starlink. Starlink does have something to offer for countries without good cell coverage, only problem is that those countries don't have that much money. In other words, people cannot pay 60 USD per month for a Starlink connection. In some countries that is more than the average monthly income.
Europe has full coverage of mobile and glass viber internet, so am sincerely wondering who will change to Starlink. In Northern Europe most households now have speeds of 1 Gb, so going to Starlink would mean actually lowering the speed. In addition, in most countries internet is coupled to a TV connection as well as a phone connection, so it is a package deal. Starlink does not offer that at this moment.
This will make the European market extremely challenging for Starlink and yet, that is where the money is. We already see now that they had to lower the monthly rate in countries like Greece, Croatia, Slovenia, Bulgaria etc to 60 euro per month compared to the 90 and 120 euro per month in more wealthier European countries.
It is my understanding that Starlink is still losing money, so no profit yet and they have only 10 % of the final amount of satellites up and flying.
Perhaps in a couple of years they will have to come to the conclusion that it was a nice idea, but financially not viable. We will see and until that time I hope I can use Starlink onboard our boat.

 

[SteveK]

@Sababa, did you see post 22

The water around Mercer island has service, the west coast off land has service, maybe not 20 miles out but the coastal

 

[Sababa]

@Sababa, did you see post 22

The water around Mercer island has service, the west coast off land has service, maybe not 20 miles out but the coastal

Post 22’s “tongue in cheek” reference to map is what I was trying to verify without success. I also suspect that it is going to work everywhere the map says there is coverage, including on the water near land. It’s just really annoying that they won’t say it outright, and it makes me wonder why.