solar or generator?

[Porgy]

Is anyone running a propane fridge on their boat? I always thought they had to be maintained in a fairly level postion to work properly?

I looked into them a bit. I don’t want ammonia and/or hydrogen inside my boat. Nor do I want flowing propane and open flame on the boat especially when I’m not aboard. I don’t want to exchange a 20# propane bottle every month or keep a supply of spare bottles on deck. For some sense of safety, I could put the fridge in the cockpit as has been sometimes suggested. As a liveaboard with previous experience living in a house, I believe the fridge should be in the galley where it belongs, not on deck looking like a derelict scow.

 

[FlyWright]

Ah, after careful looking and enlarging, I see the wings.
How many panels make up a wing?
Looks nice.

100W panels, 200W per wing

 

[Port Tack]

Been boat shopping for a while and couple of trawlers we looked at had no aux. power other than a couple house batteries charged by the alternator.

I would be more inclined to install a quality solar system rather than a generator. I would guess my biggest power draw would be refrigeration, planning on gas range.

Usage for now would primarily be New England, Hudson River and canals.

I am looking for the pro and cons either way.

Does anyone run a hard top over the flybridge that that raises/lowers?

Thanks.

Both.

 

[OldDan1943]

100W panels, 200W per wing

Sounds good.
The only time you need to run the generator is to cook, heat water, run the AC and charge the batteries (making up for what the solar panels cant/didnt produce)

 

[OldDan1943]

Even on an overcast sky, the solar panels will produce a little bit, maybe not to your liking but every little bit helps if you are dead in the water w/o a generator.

 

[socalrider]

Even on an overcast sky, the solar panels will produce a little bit, maybe not to your liking but every little bit helps if you are dead in the water w/o a generator.

In our application (700W PV, single refrigerator), an overcast day on the hook is easily enough to power our refrigerator, lights, etc. and get our batteries back close to full SOC, but not enough to make water (10a, 8.5gph) or heat it without depleting the bank. Obviously if we're moving at all, the calculus changes as our alternators can put out 150a and the water gets heated for free.

For us, that's the tradeoff with not having a generator - on cloudy days where we're not moving we have to make do with whatever hot water we have left from the day before. With 400g of tankage, making water can always wait a few days. In SoCal, this is not much of an inconvenience. If we were in the PNW, I'd want another way to heat water for sure, but I'd probably go with a full diesel hydronic system and maybe bigger alternators & battery bank before a generator.

Point is, a decent sized PV system can put out enough to power minimal systems (not watermaker/heater/HVAC) even on a cloudy day.

 

[OldDan1943]

Ah yes, life's choices..... water maker, hot water, non-gas cooking, fridge,
Gotta have big batteries and inverter. Oh just start the generator and enjoy life. I didn't buy this boat to go 'camping'.
If we time the cooking just right, dinner will be ready when we tie up or anchor out Shut down the generator, live by candle light, calling it a romantic evening. LOL
Timing is important when the decision is made to start the generator.
Charge the batteries, cook, everyone takes a hot shower, run the AC.

My fridge is 12vt and very happy to float on my solar panels (2X130watt solar panels), my water maker is 12vt.

 

[Port Tack]

Ah yes, life's choices..... water maker, hot water, non-gas cooking, fridge,
Gotta have big batteries and inverter. Oh just start the generator and enjoy life. I didn't buy this boat to go 'camping'.
If we time the cooking just right, dinner will be ready when we tie up or anchor out Shut down the generator, live by candle light, calling it a romantic evening. LOL
Timing is important when the decision is made to start the generator.
Charge the batteries, cook, everyone takes a hot shower, run the AC.

My fridge is 12vt and very happy to float on my solar panels (2X130watt solar panels), my water maker is 12vt.

You got that right I'm moving onto my boat and not going camping, the admiral is not going to rough it going anywhere. I'm thinking a diesel generator, solar panels to pick up any slack and keep the batteries at near full and possibly even putting a dockbox on top of the aft cabin with an extra Honda generator just in case. Just because I may have some bad gas and can't run engines or generator doesn't mean I might not want a hot shower.

 

[FlyWright]

Sounds good.
The only time you need to run the generator is to cook, heat water, run the AC and charge the batteries (making up for what the solar panels cant/didnt produce)

I do a lot of cooking on the inverter without the generator, including all hot breakfasts and coffee for quiet mornings at anchor. And when I eat, I eat like a king with healthy meat and veggie hot meals. Normal gen use is about 30 mins/day during my summer cruising trips. I expect winter fishing trips to be similar due to the frequent engine runs while moving from spot to spot. (Haven't had the chance to test this out, yet.)

No AC for cooling, not needed in Northern CA.

I only use the generator to heat water if solar water bag doesn't work/isn't set up and no stbd engine run in two days. I only really need hot water for my daily shower but summertime tepid showers are refreshing, too.

Batts get extra charging concurrent with cooking. High output Balmar 120A and stock 60A alternators, generator powered 55A charger and 500W solar charging systems play together very well when used concurrently.

BTW, I also run 2 fridges 5.8cf and ~3.5cf.

As I've said for years, "I'm not camping when aboard. I have all the comforts needed or desired and all the necessities of home."

My personal best for length of time aboard is 106 days during my Coronavirus Cruise of 2020 from mid-March to end July. I only added solar at the end of that trip in July and spent all but 2 nights at anchor, although I did need to take a 10 day break in the middle to deal with a car break-in and other issues during the Antifa rioting and burning of downtown Vallejo, CA city hall in May-June.

PS. I added a couple better photos

 

[Hippocampus]

There’s ways to live a sybaritic life and minimize your footprint. Big solar fan but there’s times it just doesn’t cut it. If you’re plugged in during those times there’s no need for a genset. But if you don’t want to go “camping “ there is. Simple physics tells you unless you have a oversized LI or C bank there’s times you will need to compromise your lifestyle in the absence of a charging source not dependent on sun, wind or a running alternator. The usable joules stored determines how long that is. See mega yachts with LI. Weight is no concern nor is genset (they usually have two) but the ability to have nothing running at night but the air handlers means a scary quiet night. The energy density means space and weight saved for other uses.
We needed to find loads to exercise our genset. Rarely ran it. But when we did it was a godsend. The OP seems to use his boat to cruise. Depending upon where he does that activity and spends his time when still I think is the determining factor as too whether he needs a genset. Not his energy budget nor how his boat is outfitted nor his panel(s) output. Yes, they make something on overcast or snowy or rainy days but I would suggest at that decreased output you will drain your batteries. How long that takes depends on the construction of the bank, parasitic losses and load. But eventually you will need to modify your activities as a result.

 

[OldDan1943]

FlyWright,
"I do a lot of cooking on the inverter without the generator, including all hot breakfasts and coffee for quiet mornings at anchor.

You must have LOTS of batteries and big inverter.
There is no way would I even consider trying to run my Force 10 electric on my 1800watt inverter and 3x4D Batteries.

I have a generator and I am not afraid to use it.

 

[OldDan1943]

FlyWright, much better pictures. Thanks.
When I was in the navy Vallejo was pretty much a sleepy bedroom community. I went to Part 1 of the nuclear power school.

There was a great burlesque place near San Diego, live music on the weekends. The ladies ladies were actually beautiful and they put on a well rehearsed production.

 

[FlyWright]

FlyWright,
"I do a lot of cooking on the inverter without the generator, including all hot breakfasts and coffee for quiet mornings at anchor.

You must have LOTS of batteries and big inverter.
There is no way would I even consider trying to run my Force 10 electric on my 1800watt inverter and 3x4D Batteries.

I have a generator and I am not afraid to use it.

I have a 6xGC 660AH bank and a small 1000W inverter. I use microwave, electric skillet, air fryer, and a Mr. Coffee pot...all appropriately sized to operate on the 1000W inverter. It's been working great for 5+ years but I have a spare 1000W inverter in dry storage aboard, just in case.

My anchorage neighbors really appreciated the addition of the solar for the quiet mornings.

 

[FlyWright]

...Simple physics tells you unless you have a oversized LI or C bank there’s times you will need to compromise your lifestyle in the absence of a charging source not dependent on sun, wind or a running alternator. ...

If one hopes to just add batts to build a bigger bank, remember that building a bigger battery bank comes with new needs and appetites. In the real world, it's more than just adding more batteries to resolve the deficiency.

Bigger lead-acid banks typically require higher charge rates to be able to charge properly. I needed to upgrade my shore charger, and alternator while adding components like combiners, switches, alternator regulator, cables and SOC monitor. It was a complete rebuild from the big cables up that allowed me to split the load side from the charge side for complete electrical system control like large aircraft.

IMO, it's all about balanced loads/charges (knowing your energy budget) with good monitoring and system management flexibility. The more charging sources aboard, the greater your flexibility.

Not too many boats will have identical needs and options.

 

[OldDan1943]

I have a 6xGC 660AH bank and a small 1000W inverter. I use microwave, electric skillet, air fryer, and a Mr. Coffee pot...all appropriately sized to operate on the 1000W inverter. It's been working great for 5+ years but I have a spare 1000W inverter in dry storage aboard, just in case.

You run them all at the same time on a 1000watt inverter? LOL Yea right.
It's called "scheduling".
When on shore power, I call mine, "The 30 amp dance". It is nice to have an amp meter in the galley area. Keep from tripping breakers
The inverter read out is also in the saloon area. That is a different story.
2000watt microwave sucks the batteries down quickly. I dont know the minimum voltage of my microwave, prior to damage. I doubt if it is 10vts.... so I cycle the microwave on and off. Takes a while to heat up a cup of coffee. Maybe 90sec when I cycle the microwave. When I shut the microwave off, the voltage jumps back up but not to 12vts. The normal voltage returns in less than 60 sec, That is sort of suggestion, it is about time to change the batteries. More money, more money.

 

[FlyWright]

You run them all at the same time on a 1000watt inverter? LOL Yea right.

I never said or suggested concurrent use of those items, but I think you know that.

 

[OldDan1943]

I never said or suggested concurrent use of those items, but I think you know that.

Just twisting your tail a bit.

 

[JDCAVE]

You run them all at the same time on a 1000watt inverter? LOL Yea right.
It's called "scheduling".
When on shore power, I call mine, "The 30 amp dance". It is nice to have an amp meter in the galley area. Keep from tripping breakers
The inverter read out is also in the saloon area. That is a different story.
2000watt microwave sucks the batteries down quickly. I dont know the minimum voltage of my microwave, prior to damage. I doubt if it is 10vts.... so I cycle the microwave on and off. Takes a while to heat up a cup of coffee. Maybe 90sec when I cycle the microwave. When I shut the microwave off, the voltage jumps back up but not to 12vts. The normal voltage returns in less than 60 sec, That is sort of suggestion, it is about time to change the batteries. More money, more money.

2000 watt microwave? Yowsah! That’s huuugggeeee! Ours is 1000 watt. We do run it but only for 30 seconds or so. The battery bank is aging but still seems to stay about 11.9 VDC when the microwave is on.

We had to decide what to do when our Genny failed and after hand wringing, we replaced it. We put a whopping 20 hours on it over 35 days. Still it’s a NL 5 kw unit. The solar panels can handle bringing the batteries back up to float, after the Genny gives the bank a kick in the ass for an hour in the morning.

Jim

 

[OldDan1943]

In theory, a 5KW generator uses 0.75 gph. I guess that is 'loaded'.

 

[JDCAVE]

In theory, a 5KW generator uses 0.75 gph. I guess that is 'loaded'.

Yes. We load it right the way up.

 

[Ken E.]

In theory, a 5KW generator uses 0.75 gph. I guess that is 'loaded'.

I also have a NL 5kw and I think that's pretty accurate, loaded up. What I usually see for about half load is .3 -> .5 gph. I have a fuel tank dedicated to the genset so I can nail down consumption pretty accurately based on fill ups.

 

[CharlieO.]

Thanks everyone for all the great points to consider.

 

[dutch-barge]

first thing we did was PULL the existing generator...
added solar on the hard top...1800 watt,
2 nice 3KW 24/3000 Victron inverters
2 sets of MPPT
a 90 Amp 24V alternator

one thing to remember with solar...the limiting factor of an MPPT is the Max Current. and in lesser factor the Open Voltage of the panels

So if you have a 24V Bank you can usually put twice as many panels on there as with 12 V

we Cook induction, do the laundry all on the inverter.

no need to hear a generator, winterize it, maintain it.

The advantage of the Victron equipment...their control units also provide remote warnings for bilges going on, shore power going off etc. These control units cost the same as the Victron control units PLUS they usually charge a monthly fee, with Victron it is free. We also use this to turn the boats heat on before we arrive on cold days, so she is just warm when we arrive.

Now these units also work with Signal K for even more automation

Enjoy the peace and quiet of Solar

 

[Xlantic]

This is a hot topic: 83 posts in 4 days!

I am planning of getting rid of my almost 50 year old Onan generator.

I installed 6x330 Watt panels as a replacement to the Bimini (@ €120 per panel they were cheaper than Sunbrella). With this I am "floating" by lunch time (no AC, propane cooking, hot water from the engines).

When I remove the generator I will upgrade one of the alternators to 120 amperes or so, externally regulated, and will use that if the solar falls short.

 

[MVDarlin]

I agree with the first reply
Best to have both. Solar will extend the life if your genny. And the genny will be needed on partial solar days. In my experience solar panels seldom produce half of their rated output, even on the best days.

 

[Ken E.]

In my experience solar panels seldom produce half of their rated output, even on the best days.

That's my experience, as well. I want both as much solar as possible plus a genset on my boat.

 

[FlyWright]

first thing we did was PULL the existing generator...
added solar on the hard top...1800 watt,
2 nice 3KW 24/3000 Victron inverters
2 sets of MPPT
a 90 Amp 24V alternator

one thing to remember with solar...the limiting factor of an MPPT is the Max Current. and in lesser factor the Open Voltage of the panels

So if you have a 24V Bank you can usually put twice as many panels on there as with 12 V

we Cook induction, do the laundry all on the inverter.

no need to hear a generator, winterize it, maintain it.

The advantage of the Victron equipment...their control units also provide remote warnings for bilges going on, shore power going off etc. These control units cost the same as the Victron control units PLUS they usually charge a monthly fee, with Victron it is free. We also use this to turn the boats heat on before we arrive on cold days, so she is just warm when we arrive.

Now these units also work with Signal K for even more automation

Enjoy the peace and quiet of Solar

I guess you probably don't require air conditioning in Amsterdam. Unfortunately, I've never been there.

 

[IntoTheBlue]

We are able to fit 4 x 100 W solar panels and have a 475 aH battery bank. This takes care of all of our electric needs except for hot water and A/C. We do not use A/C off the dock, so not a factor. However, hot water is a factor. We'll run the genset for about a 1/2 hour in the morning for hot water, which remains hot throughout the day.

Question, why not have both? Or at least carry a small genset on board. BTW, there are days when solar production is minimal. So it's not a reliable source of primary power.

Enjoy!

 

[ksanders]

We are able to fit 4 x 100 W solar panels and have a 475 aH battery bank. This takes care of all of our electric needs except for hot water and A/C. We do not use A/C off the dock, so not a factor. However, hot water is a factor. We'll run the genset for about a 1/2 hour in the morning for hot water, which remains hot throughout the day.

Question, why not have both? Or at least carry a small genset on board. BTW, there are days when solar production is minimal. So it's not a reliable source of primary power.

Enjoy!

Because many of the folks removing generators are making a decision not to spend the money on a new generator, so they are searching for alternatives.

Fifteen grand for a new generator makes folks think.

Thank goodness technology exists today to allow those alternatives, and it is only going to get better as time goes on.

 

[OldDan1943]

AT made a boat, 36.2, 2 staterooms and no generator. I guess it did not sell well because I am told they discontinued it. Maybe they figured out how to shoe horn in a generator.