I am reminded of the words of Benjamin Franklin
“If you fail to plan, you are planning to fail!”
Hmm, I didn’t know there was a guy named Ben F down in Aussieland. We used to have a guy with the same name here in America ?
I am reminded of the words of Benjamin Franklin
“If you fail to plan, you are planning to fail!”
Hmm, I didn’t know there was a guy named Ben F down in Aussieland. We used to have a guy with the same name here in America ?
....In 4-5 years of cruising you will swap your lead acid for new...
Unique in the sense that cost of equipment in Oz is so damned high. Cost-benefit decisions are much different in North America. That is what I meant by unique. So, Simi, you saying, categorically, that lithium is so much cheaper than lead-acid technology is, quite simply, pretty much irrelavant to most others here.
"4 X makes a 24v @ 880ah = $2352
BUT
That only gives 440ah usable
To get up to the 840 ah usable that we enjoy with lifepo4 we need to double that trojan bank again"
That's is not factual... exaggeration at best just wrong in many ways.
Show me a batty mfg cycle life curve that drops off to zero beyond 50%
FLA & AGM easily usable to 70-75% and occasionally a little beyond.
I could care less whether folks LOVE LiFePO but don't sell it with bad info.
If that's your / others rationalization that's fine but there are other exaggerations against but not worth repeating.
LiFePO4 are absolutely great for some people and situations but not universally the right answer for all.
Delfin - a couple clarifications.
There is a very good practical reason LiFePO4 batteries may not make a good starter battery: the BMS limits discharge current, usually close to the AH rating of the battery. So a 100AH battery such as the typical BattleBorn can only discharge up to 100A of current. This roughly compares to the CCA (cold cranking amps) of a starter battery which is normally 800A or more. You can parallel multiple LiFePO4 to multiply the available amperage, but that's sort of an expensive workaround. So while electrons are electrons, they are being throttled differently.
LiFePO4 have a much, much different charge profile than a traditional 3-stage charger/regulator. Both Renogy and Victron have LiFePO4 charge settings that are essentially a single stage blast with the BMS modulating a maintenance charge. Because the parasitic discharge on LiFePO4 is near zero vs 2%-3% per month for LA batteries, it really does require a specific charge profile.
Bottom line is the "special charger" and "special alternator" terms are only a slight misnomer. The charge profile is controlled by alternator capacity and the regulated flow. That regulated flow is significantly different for FLA vs LiFePO4. Installing LiFePO4 but not adapting the rest of the system is wasting the potential of LiFePO4.
Peter
Tom, I have a Trace 4000 charger inverter that puts out 100 amps, and yes, the Sterlings are just daisy chained so when charging 187 amps is what I read is being absorbed by the LFP. I can't remember how many is the limit of Sterlings that can be put together, but they seem to work just fine and play nicely with the Trace. I have them set to the same value of bulk voltage as the Trace, and keep the Absorption to a max of 30 minutes, which I generally interrupt after 5 minutes or so of reaching target voltage of 29.2 volts. The only time the Sterlings are used is when on anchor and using the genset as they are 240 vac input.Great information Carl. I'd forgotten how simple a setup you'd installed. Do you have an inverter charger or just rely upon the 3 Sterlings? How did you tie the 3 chargers together? Thanks
Glad you're happy with your system. Sounds like it works well. It is not representative of an average system so makes sense that you caveat your statements accordingly.I only have my own installation and system to refer to, but the two Lithionics 300 Ah 24vdc in my house bank put out 800 amps continuous and 6,000 amps pulse, supported by the supplied BMS. I happen to use 8Ds as a starter bank, and they are rated for 820 amps @ 24 vdc - in other words, the same as the LFP house bank. Further, the recommended Bulk charge current for 8Ds, at least according to Trojan, is 29.6 vdc. For the Lithionics battery, it is 29.2. Enough of a difference to matter? I doubt it, but not "significantly different", IMO.
5 years in, I use the same charger I had with AGMs, the same voltage regulator and the same alternator. The only change I made was to add 3 30 amp/24vdc Sterling chargers to boost genset charging current to 180 amps so as to take advantage of LFP's much, much, much greater current acceptance and resultant decrease in genset time. The exact same charging system is used for the LA starter bank with no issues. I just use the LFP parameters for charging and they work fine for the LA.
So, based only on my own experience, I think you can see why I find the argument for the need to redo the entire charging system when one converts to LFP to not make a lot of sense. At least to me....
It looks like the Battleborn 100 amp LFP deep cycle puts out 200 amps @ 12 vdc (30 seconds), so I guess different LFP batteries may have different specs and some may not be ideal for a starter bank, but that appears to be a manufacturer, not chemical parameter. Same with the charge voltage - Battleborn says 28.8 vdc for bulk charging.
http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/SCS225_Trojan_Data_Sheets.pdf
https://lithionicsbattery.com/product/24v-300ah-8d-gt-module/
https://1t1pye1e13di20waq11old70-wp...ent/uploads/2019/01/BBGC2-2021-Spec-Sheet.pdf
My hunch is you'd admit your experience of getting 20+ years from an AGM bank is exceptional. Excerpt from Marine-How-To article I just posted in previous response. 1480 "Real World" examples (albeit FLA vs AGM, a relatively close cousin),.
Real-world:
2003, we built our ExpeditionVehicle.
Nearly two decades full-time live-aboard, our ancient AGM bank is going strong.
.
It powers our induction hot-plates and our water-heaters.
.
We keep it topped with 1,830-Watts photovoltaic.
No petroleum-based genset.
.
I hope this helps.
... So, our decision is to go with LiFePo batteries. The only thing we now worry about is getting it built correctly by the vendor, who in our case is KK...
In a battery use survey conducted on sailboatowners.com, the largest ever of its kind with 1480 users surveyed*[/I]
Peter
I am very much around but there are days i dont read TF?
Appreciate all who commented on the thread. Please be sure that when I ask a question, it is for a matter that i am about to make decision. While reading TF replies I also tend to do independent research. Experience of many of you broadens my perspective and helps the research process. There are never 100% right decisions. It is all tradeoffs when engineering is involved (and, I am an engineer).
We are buiding a new boat, 60’. Going to live aboard. Not going be moving marina to marinaand given the size more likely to anchored than be on a slip.
So faster charging time is important. With a new build of this size boat, price of battery system is a marginal increase. But, safety matters.
PM with a member who is very experienced indicated that most new build he is advising on is opting for this type of battery. So, our decision is to go with LiFePo batteries. The only thing we now worry about is getting it built correctly by the vendor, who in our case is KK.
Hrk
Glad you're happy with your system. Sounds like it works well. It is not representative of an average system so makes sense that you caveat your statements accordingly.
Marine-how-to article explaining why LFP batteries are NOT a drop-replacement for FLA.
https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/
Peter
5 years in, I use the same charger I had with AGMs, the same voltage regulator and the same alternator. The only change I made was to add 3 30 amp/24vdc Sterling chargers to boost genset charging current to 180 amps so as to take advantage of LFP's much, much, much greater current acceptance and resultant decrease in genset time. The exact same charging system is used for the LA starter bank with no issues. I just use the LFP parameters for charging and they work fine for the LA.
If not, wouldn't the alternator then be subject to the same loadings that killed off my previous 2 large frame continuously rated alts?
Forgive we if this has already been addressed in a previous post but
Do you still need some sort of smart regulator/cooling for your alt?
I assume so because you are still smashing amps into the starts so it can be sucked out and transfered to the LFP bank by those 3 chargers yes?
Sounds sensible looking forward. AGMs won`t need watering. 6AH difference should not be noticeable. 6 years life is an indicator to replace wet with wet but newer tech AGM is worth considering .... I currently have 8 x 6V US 2200 wet batteries that have lasted 6 years but I'm told that a couple at least aren't healthy now.
Looking to replace with either 225AH 6V Fusion AGM or SSB EV & Golf Buggy ones 226ah which my water top up system would fit onto as it does with the US2200. Only diff will be I drop from 232 AH each to 226 AH and 3 Kg lighter each. Connection setup would remain the same. Can't afford Lifepod at this stage and at 76 years old I probably wont be boating into my 80's but who knows.
Any advice?
Thought as muchA Balmar 624 controls the alternator and the Sterling and Trace also have programmable charging. The alternator is de-rated and doesn't need cooling as it is a 150 amp, 24 vdc that I have set for 100 amps via the MC624.
If I understand you second question, your assumption is not right. The FLA and LFP banks are never combined, so there is no sucking of amps going on. My three charging sources - alternator, Sterlings and Trace - all output to a charging buss that can be connected to the LFP via the BMS or the FLA. This is done simply by using the existing rotary switches for each bank that most all boats have and that I installed initially.
.When underway, the alternator by itself can top up the LFP and once full, I connect the FLA to the charge buss and disconnect the LFP via the rotary switches and de-powering the BMS. The settings on the MC624 for LFP are just fine for the FLA since I never float the LFPs and can set it for what the FLA would prefer.
That extra oomph is nice when the Genset is runningWhen at anchor we power the house off the LFP and the FLA sit disconnected from the charging buss. When the LFP need re-charging the genset is started which supplies ac to the Trace that puts out around 100 amps. Since the genset is running, I can engage the 3 Sterlings and add another 90 amps or so allowing us to replenish the LFP in around 90 minutes (daily consumption is around 300 amps.)
IMHO, the mistake people make is to try to install LFP and have it function just as if they were on LA. I manage mine as if they were a fuel tank. Use the fuel, then refill, and when full, stop filling. Not too tough.....
. But in the present situation where your big array is not putting out much power, is there any downside to not fully charging your batteries for a couple of months or so?
When I first saw 150 cycles I thought got to be wrong. Most have said their house batteries last an average of 6 years. 150/6=25 cycles per year.My hunch is you'd admit your experience of getting 20+ years from an AGM bank is exceptional. Excerpt from Marine-How-To article I just posted in previous response. 1480 "Real World" examples (albeit FLA vs AGM, a relatively close cousin),
In a battery use survey conducted on sailboatowners.com, the largest ever of its kind with 1480 users surveyed, the vast majority of boat owners reported they rarely if ever get more than 150 cycles out of their lead acid batteries. 150 cycles!!!!! Many of these are batteries that have claims of 1000 to 1200 cycles or more. Laughable is about the best way to describe it.*
Peter
@Simi,
I read today that the La Niña event that is making everything so wet on the east coast is due to end by end autumn. A technical question: do your lithiums suffer in any way when the ambient conditions do not allow full charging? On the present vessel with a small FLA system, I use the genset (loaded by water heater, battery charger, cooking, small hot air fan to reduce mould) for an hour, or perhaps 1.5 hours to charge in the evenings, and a small solar panel to do the last 10% or so in the daytime, assuming enough. But in the present situation where your big array is not putting out much power, is there any downside to not fully charging your batteries for a couple of months or so?