SeaPipers - Why?

[Blissboat]

AusCan,

This thread is exposing the very conservative nature of TF members.
Right down the straight and narrow. Deviants need not apply.
Conventional and traditional are words to live by here.

That's true of mariners in general, I think. As folks gain experience around the water, they tend to become more respectful of traditions. The reason is that when we go to sea, we stand on the shoulders of centuries of boatbuilders' and seafarers' accumulated experience. The more experienced we become, the more we can understand and appreciate the hard-won knowledge learned and shared by those who came before us.

Maritime design and construction evolves, to be sure. But the process has always been incremental, because the history of seafaring teaches that water can be an unforgiving setting to dabble around with radical innovations.

 

[rsn48]

I started the thread and I will say this, my question isn't about conservativisms which would be the first time in my life some one accused me of that....lol. But there are boats I didn't understand until I saw them in use contextually.

I'm a cruise for many nights on the boat, most of the time at anchor kind of guy. I have always been that way. When paddle boards first came out and I was asked whether I liked them or not, I said: "any boat without a galley, sleeping births, a head and a shower isn't worth buying." You can get my gist of living. So when I saw bow riders in an area where I lived I didn't get them and thought they were kind of dumb. Now I still think they are kind of dumb for our area (lots of rain) I now know, after watching many Haulover videos, that they make perfect sense in Florida where most aren't going out to spend a night on the hook.

So the Seapiper doesn't make sense to me. But some one here mention its use as a dive boat and I thought, hey that makes sense, or some kind of work boat, again makes sense. But for multiple nights on the hook in areas that receive a lot of Rain - Seattle, Vancouver, Broughtons, Alaska, to my mind not a great boat. But............. it probably wasn't designed for those kind of environments.

I'm just trying to understand them.

 

[Fletcher500]

I saw Hull #1 in Dana Point a couple years ago. I believe it had a pot hauler in the midship area. Nice, utilitarian boat especially for a single person who doesn't need the extra space and just wants to go places economically and they will enjoy good slip and mooring access with its relatively short length.

 

[DDW]

Even if you have to rent a truck (or truck and driver) being able to haul it on a trailer for the winter, or to take it home to work on it, or the occasional change of venue would be worth it. I have a truck that could pull it. Dry weight with the trailer is less than a large 5th wheel that Septuagenarians are driving all over the country.

Completing the cabin would not make it "just another boat". That mid cockpit doesn't define the boat, there are many other features that are unique and not available in any other production boat. Guess I could have one custom built.

 

[Nomad Willy]

DDW,
Agree.
The hull (it’s form) is the #1 feature on most boats I would be interested in for myself. I’m just not a “galley up or dn.” type.
As I said already the hull being long and narrow is probably the defining feature of the Piper.

 

[Northern Spy]

I started the thread and I will say this, my question isn't about conservativisms which would be the first time in my life some one accused me of that....lol. But there are boats I didn't understand until I saw them in use contextually.

I'm a cruise for many nights on the boat, most of the time at anchor kind of guy. I have always been that way. When paddle boards first came out and I was asked whether I liked them or not, I said: "any boat without a galley, sleeping births, a head and a shower isn't worth buying." You can get my gist of living. So when I saw bow riders in an area where I lived I didn't get them and thought they were kind of dumb. Now I still think they are kind of dumb for our area (lots of rain) I now know, after watching many Haulover videos, that they make perfect sense in Florida where most aren't going out to spend a night on the hook.

So the Seapiper doesn't make sense to me. But some one here mention its use as a dive boat and I thought, hey that makes sense, or some kind of work boat, again makes sense. But for multiple nights on the hook in areas that receive a lot of Rain - Seattle, Vancouver, Broughtons, Alaska, to my mind not a great boat. But............. it probably wasn't designed for those kind of environments.

I'm just trying to understand them.

I understand paddle boards, but for the life of me, I don't understand Harley Davidsons. And I ride. No offense to HD riders, but if I won one in a lottery, I'd ride it once (maybe) and sell it. Same with a Azimut. Hideous things. But hey, someone likes them.

My boat doesn't have a shower...

So, as Sly Stone sang, different strokes for different folks.

 

[BruceK]

One man`s fish is another man`s poisson.

 

[rsn48]

I understand paddle boards, but for the life of me, I don't understand Harley Davidsons. And I ride. No offense to HD riders, but if I won one in a lottery, I'd ride it once (maybe) and sell it.

I tell my non biking friends, Harley's look mean but they are pussy cats in the motorcycle world. I have owned Suzuki's, some Chinese built 125 CC bike that was slower than a Honda 90 (back in the late 60's) and a BMW K bike.

The first Suzuki I owned was a 750, scared the **** out of me. My second Suzuki was an 1100 Shaft drive, a great cruising bike that was also capable of scaring the **** out of me. I bought the BMW 750 K bike on a whim after owning the two Suzuki's and what a disappointment. It didn't scare the **** out of me. It was probably the most reliable bike I ever owned, the kind of bike you'd ride around the world on, but it just didn't have the "oomph" the Suzuki 750 had.

I forget the name of the owner, but "Deeley" (?) was an early in with Harley's. One of the first bike cops in NA were in Vancouver. At a bike show I met the top bike cop, the Sargent who ran it all for Vancouver PD. We discussed how stupid Harley's were. He also rode a lot when off duty, taking vacations down to Florida on his Gold Wing. He said if he proposed changing the brand, he would probably be lynched. He talked about a poster in the bike cop shop that showed a cop with long boots, foot up on the bike, talking to a young child. He said that poster demonstrated the appeal of the bike, mean looking bike, tough looking cop, talking to a kid.

I had hip replacements and I needed something lower to the ground, crotch to ground distance and decided I would at least look at a Harley. I talked to the sales guy there saying I didn't want a pokey experience on a Harley like I had experienced on my BMW. He recommended I stay away from the "fully dressed" bikes, instead looking at the Sport model with some mods, then he said I might be happy. But amazing you can't buy a bike off the floor without mods and have it scare the **** out of you.

 

[FF]

"But I don't want a vehicle that big and heavy for my daily driver and I don't want that much tied up in a truck the gets used a few times a year."

One low cost system is a used OTR tractor with a sleeping cabin mounted.
These can be had for $5K to $10K and with a few mods can be registered as an RV.

This brings the price of insurance to about $100 a year and by rating the unit to under 26,000lbs no CDL is required to operate the rig.

This will tow whatever you have.

 

[sunchaser]

As Fish knows and Captain Bligh found out, "open" vessels with friendly hull designs have proven to be quite seaworthy. The SeaPiper has some interesting aspects such as efficient, unsinkable, 4 bulkheads, working room for fishing crabbing or diving, transportable and a very bright builder. I wish them well.

One more thing, no gas engines.

 

[Fish53]

I have no problem at all with an open boat (I own two dories) but I like them to be self bailing with adequate scuppers, less pumping and bucket work that way. Bligh's crew had to bail for 3000 miles.

 

[Hippocampus]

Really like the hull. Spoke with the builder about whether he was going to do something around 40’ in the future but he said no. 35’ is somewhat awkward for many. Big enough that operating expenses are considerable but small enough that cruising is cramped. Think boats should match common slip sizes.
My two concerns were having that much space exposed to a boarding sea and getting another one before the first drained. Although said to be unsinkable having that amount of surface effect from green water would mean a lot of bouncing around and possibly down flooding so definitely a pleasant day boat even if inland or coastal. My second concern was a mold for interior inside a mold for hull with a few molds for house so access to fix anything or run new stuff would be a bear. Still like stick built boats and don’t like glued in liners.

 

[psneeld]

Too much time offshore and worrying......

In over 55 years of boating from FL to the Gulf to NE US and Alaska, I have only once had a boarding sea while coastal cruising and sport fishing and that was because I was fishing on an inlet sandbar. Thats on all kinds of less than 50 foot vessels. The sandbar incident was in a 22 foot center console .

That includes 15 years of year round commercial work on small vessels and all those years babysitting boaters from the air and rarely ever seeing one even come aboard in bad conditions.

If open boats were overly dangerous, I doubt the craze for bigger and bigger center consoles would be the rage.

Like many things in boating, its more about the captain than the boat.

 

[DDW]

DDW,
Agree.
The hull (it’s form) is the #1 feature on most boats I would be interested in for myself. I’m just not a “galley up or dn.” type.
As I said already the hull being long and narrow is probably the defining feature of the Piper.

And the hull is the most unique thing about the Seapiper. You have to download the brochure and look at the sections to appreciate it. The wide keel keeps the engine, batteries, and tanks low and allows it to sit upright on the beach (or the trailer). The narrowness comes from the trailerability requirement.

I could build the hull in aluminum as it is chined, and the superstructure from cored composite. I'd like to have a little heavier duty diesel, a different arrangement and superstructure geared more towards high latitudes.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

And the hull is the most unique thing about the Seapiper. You have to download the brochure and look at the sections to appreciate it. The wide keel keeps the engine, batteries, and tanks low and allows it to sit upright on the beach (or the trailer). The narrowness comes from the trailerability requirement.

I could build the hull in aluminum as it is chined, and the superstructure from cored composite. I'd like to have a little heavier duty diesel, a different arrangement and superstructure geared more towards high latitudes.

Just out of curiosity, what engine do you think would be a "Heavier duty engine" than the Kubota/Beta ? These thing are legendary...I would think an Alum build would double the price?...What is it your trying to improve on?

 

[MurrayM]

At least one Dave Gerr designed boat had a stainless steel plate on the bottom of its box keel, to take the beating while drying out on cobble beaches.

Wonder if that mod would be doable on a SeaPiper?

 

[CharlieO.]

I understand paddle boards, but for the life of me, I don't understand Harley Davidsons. And I ride. No offense to HD riders, but if I won one in a lottery, I'd ride it once (maybe) and sell it.

I tell my non biking friends, Harley's look mean but they are pussy cats in the motorcycle world. I have owned Suzuki's, some Chinese built 125 CC bike that was slower than a Honda 90 (back in the late 60's) and a BMW K bike.

The first Suzuki I owned was a 750, scared the **** out of me. My second Suzuki was an 1100 Shaft drive, a great cruising bike that was also capable of scaring the **** out of me. I bought the BMW 750 K bike on a whim after owning the two Suzuki's and what a disappointment. It didn't scare the **** out of me. It was probably the most reliable bike I ever owned, the kind of bike you'd ride around the world on, but it just didn't have the "oomph" the Suzuki 750 had.

I forget the name of the owner, but "Deeley" (?) was an early in with Harley's. One of the first bike cops in NA were in Vancouver. At a bike show I met the top bike cop, the Sargent who ran it all for Vancouver PD. We discussed how stupid Harley's were. He also rode a lot when off duty, taking vacations down to Florida on his Gold Wing. He said if he proposed changing the brand, he would probably be lynched. He talked about a poster in the bike cop shop that showed a cop with long boots, foot up on the bike, talking to a young child. He said that poster demonstrated the appeal of the bike, mean looking bike, tough looking cop, talking to a kid.

I had hip replacements and I needed something lower to the ground, crotch to ground distance and decided I would at least look at a Harley. I talked to the sales guy there saying I didn't want a pokey experience on a Harley like I had experienced on my BMW. He recommended I stay away from the "fully dressed" bikes, instead looking at the Sport model with some mods, then he said I might be happy. But amazing you can't buy a bike off the floor without mods and have it scare the **** out of you.

Was that second bike a gsx1100g? I have one of those beasts in the garage.

 

[DDW]

Just out of curiosity, what engine do you think would be a "Heavier duty engine" than the Kubota/Beta ? These thing are legendary...I would think an Alum build would double the price?...What is it your trying to improve on?

A JD4045 for example would be a heavier duty engine. But the Kubota has an advantage in more worldwide parts/service probably. I've already said what I want to improve (for my use), mainly the plan, deck, and house. If Seapiper won't do it, then I'd need a custom build. In a custom built chine hull aluminum is probably cheaper than fiberglass as no mold has to be made and no fairing done. An open question if aluminum would be light enough to stay within reasonable trailering limits.

 

[DDW]

At least one Dave Gerr designed boat had a stainless steel plate on the bottom of its box keel, to take the beating while drying out on cobble beaches.

Wonder if that mod would be doable on a SeaPiper?

Actually it has 2000 lbs of ballast, maybe the best thing would be to put a 2000 lb lead shoe on the outside. It doesn't corrode, and can take quite a beating. It will deform at high point loads, but that doesn't really hurt it much.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

“ Seapiper has a large center cockpit and a substantial aft cockpit which need to self drain quickly. We incorporated an advanced draining system in the center cockpit, along with overflow scuppers that are built into the side doors. This cockpit if filled to the gunnel will drain in an unprecedented 10-12 seconds (!) The aft cockpit is also self draining, and when filled to the gunnel will completely drain in approximately 6 seconds.”

 

[Nomad Willy]

Just out of curiosity, what engine do you think would be a "Heavier duty engine" than the Kubota/Beta ? These thing are legendary...I would think an Alum build would double the price?...What is it your trying to improve on?

Sailor of Fortune wrote;
“Just out of curiosity, what engine do you think would be a "Heavier duty engine" than the Kubota/Beta ?”

I agree and then some. DDW what could a heavier duty engine be that would be light enough to be appropriate for this boat?

 

[rsn48]

Charlie, the Suzuki gs 1100 shaft drive was an early 1980's model:

https://www.smartcycleguide.com/L49440285

 

[DDW]

Sailor of Fortune wrote;
“Just out of curiosity, what engine do you think would be a "Heavier duty engine" than the Kubota/Beta ?”

I agree and then some. DDW what could a heavier duty engine be that would be light enough to be appropriate for this boat?

The JD is about 170 lbs heavier which is not nothing, but makes the same hp at less rpm (2500 vs 2800) from more cu in (275 vs 200), and will make it for longer (M2 rated).

 

[Nomad Willy]

DDW,
OK. How-a-bout physical size and price?
But I don’t see any advantage. 98% of owners will get thousands of hours on the standard engines. What’s the point of getting an engine that lasts forever .. none.

And the rpm thing is totally subjective. I had a boat w a 3400rpm Yanmar and cruised it at 2750rpm. Didn’t seem extra noisy because of rpm to me. Psychologically speaking I can see trawler skippers thinking high rpm = small and low rpm = big. Skippers on the heaviest recreational boats (trawlers) will likely favor engines that sound big even if the’re louder and have more vibration. But it’s not objective ..

Surprised you found an engine a bit more “heavy duty” w only 175lbs more weight though .. good job ..

 

[Hippocampus]

We went and looked at that David Gerr boat as it was for sale. Very ingenious design but interior was a bit cut up and head room was difficult for me. Wife didn’t like it as the head felt like it was in the galley so we didn’t pursue it further.

 

[DDW]

DDW,
OK. How-a-bout physical size and price?
But I don’t see any advantage. 98% of owners will get thousands of hours on the standard engines. What’s the point of getting an engine that lasts forever .. none.

And the rpm thing is totally subjective. I had a boat w a 3400rpm Yanmar and cruised it at 2750rpm. Didn’t seem extra noisy because of rpm to me. Psychologically speaking I can see trawler skippers thinking high rpm = small and low rpm = big. Skippers on the heaviest recreational boats (trawlers) will likely favor engines that sound big even if the’re louder and have more vibration. But it’s not objective ..

Surprised you found an engine a bit more “heavy duty” w only 175lbs more weight though .. good job ..

Haven't checked size, maybe I will when I get the design finished .

You are right about most owners, which makes the Beta a good choice for the production build. I find high rpm very wearing to listen to hour after hour. Your car makes it rated power probably at 5000+ rpm, but do you like to listen to it like that for 500 miles?

On the sailboat (Volvo rated at 2800 rpm) I run 1900 - 2000. On the trawler (Cummins rated at 2800 rpm) I run at 1200. I'd guess that even on the Beta on that boat you'd be running at around 2000 for economy cruise. But I'd like 1600 even better.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

The JD is about 170 lbs heavier which is not nothing, but makes the same hp at less rpm (2500 vs 2800) from more cu in (275 vs 200), and will make it for longer (M2 rated).

Both will probably easily go 25,000 hrs between rebuild....Where ya planning on all the hours of use?

 

[rslifkin]

How noise relates to rpm depends on the engine. And you can always add better engine mounts and more sound insulation to smooth things out.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Noise is more closely aligned to power output than rpm.
I worked in a stationary diesel electric power house of 1400kw (I believe (1400hp))and when the load was doubled the noise doubled. But the engine was controlled to run 327rpm irregardless of load. The governor was very good and kept the rpm with’in 3 or 4 rpm. Especially considering the fact that the load doubling was instantaneous as it started an large electric motor pumping high pressure water. The noise doubled but the rpm remained the same.

But rslifkin I believe most trawlers have more or less minimal sound reduction material installed. And there’s very little talk about how to reduce engine noise.

 

[ssobol]

I like the Seapiper. Seems quite good for temperate climes (e.g. San Diego, Mid Atlantic). I would like it better if they got rid of a lot of the interior woodwork.