Replacement Electronics & Nav Package - Considerations?

[twistedtree]

Simrad Precision 9 Rate Compass is ~$700 or so. Often packaged with an autopilot. Mine works fine and fairy easy to adjust.

I've heard good reports on it, but they recommend against using it for MARPA. Just something to keep in mind. And it's also a magnetic compass, not satellite, so still subject to magnetic interference.

 

[twistedtree]

I might argue that your initial issue wasn't that you built an integrated, single vendor system, but perhaps the single vendor that you chose.

You're right. The initial problem was product that didn't perform as advertised. Heck, I picked the integrated system because I really liked it.



That led us to the single vendor issue which was that we couldn't just replace the devices that didn't perform because it was all tied together in one way or another. So it became an all or nothing change out.


I don't want to get caught by this issue again, at least not in a larger installation, which is why I don't place single vendor as a high priority.



I too have had single vendor packages that served their purpose just fine. When everything works to your satisfaction, they are great. The problem is when (if) you discover that you have an ugly duckling in the mix.


90% of boaters seem quite happy with single vendor, and hence recommend it. So I'm clearly a minority, which is fine. I think it's still good to get the counter point out there for people to consider.

 

[wkearney99]

I'd agree that there are some things you want always visible. But I'll also argue there is a benefit with having engine data connected to the main chart plotter, and it's ability to display it. On the Raymarine (and others, I imagine), if there is an engine alarm, you will get a large pop up window on the display and an audible alarm. That will happen even if no engine data is displayed normally. This will get your attention critical seconds or even minutes between scanning the engine instruments.

In addition, the newer chart plotters have some nice engine related features. For example, the RM Axiom (and again probably others) will keep track of fuel useage instantaneously, by the day, week, month, and season. It won't do that unless engine connected.

All these assume an electronically controlled engine.

I'll put in a plug for Raymarine: in the C80 days, they were having trouble as a company in innovation, service, and quality. Since the Flir buyout, it's become a different company. They seem to be a bit ahead of the others in innovation, and accelerating. Their support has gotten much better, frequent software updates adding features long after purchase. And the prices are dropping.

Agreed, Raymarine had nowhere to go but up.

I'm still unconvinced they're on a unified path forward though. Time will tell and maybe by the time I'm ready to make a bigger upgrade the situation will be clearer. I'm still skeptical. I'm not entirely thrilled with Garmin's 'aquire and extinguish' tactics of late either. So I'm kinda glad not to be making that choice just yet.

No argument against having altert integration with your plotter. That's definitely handy.

One downside to integrated alerts is suddenly having a ton of things bleating the SAME alarms and not always with a simple way to immediately acknowledge/silence them. It's bad enough when something goes wrong, it doesn't help to then have a bunch of squealing alarms distracting you further.

I'm cautiously optimistic to see how well the Maretron DSM410's I'm putting in this winter will help on the condition monitoring/alarm front. The more I dig into the programming of them, the steeper the climb seems to get!

My basic point was don't expect to save anything (space or money) expecting your plotter to serve double-duty for engine monitoring. Either by putting databoxes all over the border of the screen or separate pages. I'm of the opinion that some data really should remain constantly visible, like oil pressure and coolant temps. Because those are things that if you act on detecting change quickly, you've got a better chance of minimizing greater problems. I don't even like these displayed solely as digits, but prefer an analog needle. A needle just has to be in a predictable safe position, numbers you have to read and think about.

For display during non-running conditions, separate pages for fuel calculations, tank levels and all kinds of other stuff would be great to have on a larger screen, if the software let you make decent use of it.

 

[ranger58sb]

Given I've got an older differential GPS display (Furuno GP-36) that's starting to fail... I've begun thinking about what to replace that with. So far, it looks like their newer WAAS-corrected GP-39 is an easy candidate... given the cut-out dimensions are near identical... given I've got power and antenna sources right there... given it'd be an easy to connect to the adjacent radio if I choose to do that...

But I've also tried to think about other useful alternatives... and I've done sort of a system-wide review of what I've got versus what I could have with a refit... in a circa 2009 system where I have a plotter (with WAAS-corrected GPS feed), autopilot, DST sounder, DST fishfinder, radar, AIS, a couple VF radios... almost everything that CAN be interconnected, is (with two exceptions).

Turns out, it's hard for me to justify doing much of anything (except for maybe that GPS update). I could display Sirius weather on our MFD, but it's easy enough to get weather from a tablet app, augmented with our radar if necessary, augmented with a Mark I* Eyeball look outside...

I could display (some) engine data... but we have mechanical engines, not much data easily available... and what's available is also already on purpose-built gauges (with their own built-in alarms)...

I could do cameras; don't need backup camera, but maybe to monitor engine room while underway. OTOH, it seems to me easier to just Bluetooth or Wifi something like that to a tablet or laptop display...

Especially since adding some things to the MFD would mean pulling wires (ugh!)... and splitting the screen so charts become smaller and the display is cluttered up with non-nav stuff.

What am I giving up? The old radar isn't networked; OTOH, I prefer to view that on a separate display anyway (although being able to overlay it on the plotter TOO wouldn't be a bad thing). Some wireless interconnect capability that I don't have... so I can't get plotter, depth, fishfinder, radar info to a tablet or laptop... OTOH, I can't really say I'd find that to be a huge improvement...

Inertia of the wallet...

-Chris

 

[BandB]

I have found it interesting that some dismiss Furuno as aimed more at the commercial market. While they do have a lot of the commercial market, I wouldn't say that's to the neglect of the recreational. What led me to this reminder is that Riva, which we own and manage some, is Furuno all the say and we were in the showrooms and factories and on boats of AB and Maiora today in Viareggio and Massa and all we saw in electronics was Furuno. Interesting at their apparent dominance in Italy. Meanwhile, I haven't seen Furuno on any new British boat. Sunseeker doesn't offer them and I am unaware of Princess using them.

 

[ranger58sb]

I've been very happy with our Furuno NN3D-based suite... but then I can't compare it to much else. Had little modern equipment on one boat (Loran-C, etc), and only a very small Raymarine suite on the last one... and the smaller grayscale Cetrek plotter that came on our boat must have been obsolete even when the original owner installed it...

So we went from zero to hero pretty quickly. Grayscale before meant we couldn't decipher a very crowded display; color and both raster and vector charts means we can see what we're seeing. 30-minute screen redraw (seemed like) went to instantaneous. No radar or AIS before (and at least one harrowing trip in Delaware Bay fog), now we have those (and the same fog wasn't nearly as intimidating the next time around). No autopilot before, huge improvement with having it afterwards. More redundancy (GPS, DST, VHF).

Anyway, we've been very happy with it... and the few times we've had queries, the Furuno support people have been right on top of answering.

-Chris

 

[BandB]

Our Furuno experience has also been excellent, also, ranger.

 

[bridaus]

I'm curious, is there a consumer review site for this stuff? Like an Amazon (which I'm sure has some of the more consumer oriented gear) where the buyer of the equipment can comment on it's performance?

As I dreamily look over what's available out there and the literally thousands of options (easily 75% which is not needed, kind of like software options) it is difficult to compare.

Panbo and Sailbits and other sites do a great job of reviews, and there are some great blogs with some awesome information, but it would be really helpful to be able to compare/contrast information. I feel the only alternative to get this info is to post a thread about each functional category at the time I'd want to purchase each. Radar, then AP, then FF, then XYZ... a bit tiring, but fun I guess.

 

[wkearney99]

I'm curious, is there a consumer review site for this stuff?

This site has quite a lot of good info. Here's some others that are helpful, but often with their own quirky audiences...

Marine Electronics - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
https://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-electronics-forum-19/
Club Sea Ray

Sometimes a web search will stumble across results on other forums, but these have been pretty stable go-to sites for real world discussions.

I've not run across any sites that review marine products without being heavily advertising driven, and thus beholden to the vendors paying for the advertising. As in, you don't find a lot of genuinely critical observations. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of good stuff to be found there. But I don't always want to know what's "wonderful" as much as I want to know what sucks... and why.

 

[tpbrady]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is software updates. A lot of a vendor’s equipment requires the same vendors MFD to update software on autopilots, instruments, and peripherals. A second concern is something that should be simple can’t be done easily. Raymarine has never implemented data source selection on mixed vendor netwoks. Consequently I can’t tell my autopilot to ignore autopilot messages generated by my Garmin and Raymarine MFDs and follow a Coastal Explorer route.

Tom

 

[twistedtree]

One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is software updates. A lot of a vendor’s equipment requires the same vendors MFD to update software on autopilots, instruments, and peripherals. A second concern is something that should be simple can’t be done easily. Raymarine has never implemented data source selection on mixed vendor netwoks. Consequently I can’t tell my autopilot to ignore autopilot messages generated by my Garmin and Raymarine MFDs and follow a Coastal Explorer route.



Tom

Excellent points, and a pretty serious deficiency in the Ray products unless you are forever purely Ray.

 

[Bob M]

We met a Great Looper couple last fall who were on their last two weeks of the trip. They had radar, which they said was rarely used. Their chart plotter and all other electronic navigational aids were apps that ran on their Ipad. The Ipad had a dongle that supplied GPS. Their primary app was Active Captain but they used others such as NEBO, and an AIS app.


They claimed the Ipad had more current information than any dedicated device has and they liked the fact that it was portable, particularly when entering next day's route at night in their cabin.



I'm going to try an Ipad. If it works for me, I've bought my last chart plotter or MFD.


Well maybe not my last. I use a fish finder for cruising since the display graphically shows water depth change. Most fish finders also chart plot.

 

[Cigatoo]

“I'm going to try an Ipad. If it works for me, I've bought my last chart plotter or MFD.”

Make sure to purchase a cellular iPad so that you get the built in GPS capabilities. The dongle is a PIA. My IPad works great. I got every US raster chart for $50 with the Nobletec Time Zero app. As a stand alone GPS plotter it’s as good as it gets.

 

[Bob M]

The GPS dongle they used was from Garmin, if I remember right. They had a complaint about the internal GPS, but I don't remember the details.

 

[Arthurc]

I am personally a huge Furuno fan, and their navnet integration with timezero pro is great. Certainly not the cheapest and not as many bells and whistles but their stuff just works plus the support is fantastic. Integrates nicely with the flir cameras too. I’m even doing all Furuno on my new tender with a 9” mfd.
For engine/general monitoring I’m all Maretron and really like it.

The only gripe I have is I don’t really know if my radios (icom) will show dsc distress or calls on TZ Pro and I have no idea how to test that integration easily.

 

[Gordon J]

Experience with Raymarine and Garmin

I appreciate your comments and recommendations. While I was at the CT boat show I spent some time with the Garmin rep who tried to convince me Garmin was the way to go.

Are there any opinions as to the reliability of the manufacturers products - is there a consensus on the pecking order of the manufacturers? If and when I move on this, my current thinking is to use the same manufacturer. I'm looking for some of the comments already outlined: touch screen vs button/knob, interoperability with other systems, etc.

Any particular issues with bluetooth or WIFI compatibility, apps for wireless devices, route planning, open radar vs dome? I do plan to replace all sensors.

Thanks,

Jim

I think both manufacturers have good equipment and the equipment is equally reliable. I don’t have a strong preference for remodeling or Dara month as long as everything works as advertised.

My experience in getting help from Ray Marine was nothing short of frustrating. I experience long waits and failures to get them to call back.

My experience with Garman was just the opposite. Are usually found a customer service rep on the first call in a matter of minutes. And I typically got a good answer on the same call. In one instance the rep called me back with a better answer. I couldn’t believe how good the customer service was compared to Ray Marine.

I currently have two Garman touchscreen MFDs, Garmin gps, Garmin depth and raymarine autopilot. My Integrated AIS is vesper. Everything works as advertised however, I am missing a few auto pilot functions because the rain marine does not interface seamlessly with the Garman MFD‘s.

Gordon

 

[JDCAVE]

Excellent points, and a pretty serious deficiency in the Ray products unless you are forever purely Ray.

We were in the Central Coast and a fellow KK42 owner had his near new Raymarine chart plotter go “tilt” because of a software problem that required a download of some sort to reboot. No cell service. No WIFI. I had to lend him my iPad until he could get the plotter off his skiff. A real pita.

WRT using an iPad as a primary plotter: I’ve used one for bare boat charters before I had experienced Coastal Explorer. As far I’m concerned it’s now ok for a 2nd backup but before I would go with my laptop for primary backup.

Jim

 

[DW1979OA]

Lots of interesting takes on different product and support. From the manufacturer. I stepped up and found an installer that was recommended by several people and paid the extra to have it installed correctly. I was able to help a bit on the install and learned much along the way. The biggest thing for me is that here it is almost 5 years later and I can text him a question even late at night and get an answer back. Can’t say enough good things about him. Did go with all one brand (RM). So unless you have the skills and desire to do it all yourself , find a good installer.

 

[dirtdoc1]

I have all Garmin and so far I have not even been able to find Garmin tech support. I'd stay with Raymarine if you like it. My favorite chartplotter/sounder etc was an old Faruno but I hear they are having issues.

 

[Nepidae]

I think that IF you are new to electronics, then that is a consideration and with that I would strongly suggest Garmin.

All electronics have a learning curve but from what I've read about from others with their NAV products, they are not as intuitive as Garmin.

I think about the only thing that Garmin doesn't manufacture is Flir, BUT it wouldn't surprise me that it could be connected thru a NMEA 2000 backbone.

We have 4 Garmin items on board in the NAV department. A 7612xsv chartplotter (now for sale), the autopilot w/smart pump, AIS transducer and Fantom radar. We also utilize the Garmin inReach (tracker & SOS-among other capabilities) and a VIRB XE camera.

All of the NAV items are interfaced, so on the chartplotter I can see AIS & radar as overlays. The autopilot with Vision cards will do dock to dock navigation by entering your destination and letting it steer the route.

There is plenty more that does make Garmin the premier product and if you want to discuss any questions you might have contact me direct.

I might add here that unless you plan to do extensive night time traveling a Flir is not something that most buy. The other thing I might add is that I am getting a bigger screen, 16", which is why I am selling my 12".

In closing I saw a comment about Garmin support. IF you can't find Garmin support you probably can't read a chart either. 1st, you could look on line for Garmin support. Typing Garmin into Google brings up a link to their support.

Second, having owned Garmin products since 2010 I have NEVER had an issue with contacting Garmin support (an 800 number) nor had any trouble with a callback. Generally support picks up in several minutes and will take a number and call back if you can't wait. Also their solutions are usually right on but will if necessary escalate to another level.

I wish more items I owned had the support that Garmin has shown me.

To me, with purchasing items for the boat, support is a prime consideration.

 

[rsn48]

I just took out older basic electronics from my boat and installing a completely new electronics integrated system with MFD, etc. One newer function of radar that has appeal to me is called "motion scope" by Garmin, don't know what the other two (currently) manufactures call their motion detector (Furuno and Simrad).

This motion scope, using the Doppler effect tracks targets and colour codes them as to threat, might be a threat and harmless. I have an express cruiser and I have found when I'm at the helm I don't carry out sufficient head checks to my stern to observe what is coming up from behind me. I also found my friends at the helm also didn't perform sufficient head checks. When I asked guests sitting in the cockpit to give me a five minute update of anything from behind, they often forgot to do it.

So I know many don't use their radar but mine will be on even in bright clear calm days, I want to know whats behind me and using this option means not worrying about turning around frequently to check my stern. You might want to include this radar in your new package.

I'm linking Garmin but you can also find this with Furuno and Simrad as well:

 

[ranger58sb]

I am personally a huge Furuno fan, and their navnet integration with timezero pro is great.

The only gripe I have is I don’t really know if my radios (icom) will show dsc distress or calls on TZ Pro and I have no idea how to test that integration easily.

FWIW... and according to the manuals... our previous ICOM M-604 radios would transmit DSC position data on the NMEA0183 (out) buss. Our newer M-605s will transmit that data on both NMEA2000 and NMEA0183 busses. Our older Furuno NN3D will at least receive that data on the NMEA0183 buss... but I'm unclear about whether it will understand the PGNs if on the NMEA2000 buss. There's a chance.

I was never able to successfully demonstrate all that with the 604s, though; I didn't really notice (from the docs) that I might have that capability until maybe 6-7 years after initial installation... and then it took us a long while to figure out the installer hadn't hooked up the NMEA0183 cable in the radio-to-plotter direction... and it was sorta too much trouble, by that time.

I haven't had enough time with the 605s to try, yet.

My interest has mostly been focused on seeing an emergency DSC distress position marker on the plotter... and a series of DSC events one weekend was what led me to discovering a) it'd be nifty to see on the plotter where that's coming from, and b) turns out I was supposed to be able to do that. Except for that pesky connection failure.

Otherwise I'm not sure it'd be a huge step forward for us; we don't really track other people on the water, yak back and forth with anybody using DSC, etc.

-Chris

 

[Arthurc]

I have the same I interest, I don’t use DSC for ship to ship but the emergency feature would be great to see on the plotter, I just have no idea how to test that without taking my tender out and hitting the button but that seems like a bad idea all around
I have an icom 605 and two 506s all with n2k.

 

[ranger58sb]

I suspect if you can get any DSC-reported position showing up on your plotter... a distress position would show up, too.

The normal DSC menu allows polling ships for position reports. if I poll with a new 605 connected via NMEA2000 to plotter, then receive a position report, and it shows up on my older NN3D plotter... I think I'll be satisfied. My MFD manual isn't clear about whether it can handle DSC-related info relayed to the plotter via NMEA2000 (versus NMEA0183).

In your case, newer plotter, I'd expect it to be able to deal with the NMEA2000 PGNs.

If you do that kind of test, it'd help to know the outcome.

-Chris

 

[Arthurc]

On her today so I’ll play around with it if I get time, will let you know

 

[Aquabelle]

I suspect if you can get any DSC-reported position showing up on your plotter... a distress position would show up, too.

The normal DSC menu allows polling ships for position reports. if I poll with a new 605 connected via NMEA2000 to plotter, then receive a position report, and it shows up on my older NN3D plotter... I think I'll be satisfied. My MFD manual isn't clear about whether it can handle DSC-related info relayed to the plotter via NMEA2000 (versus NMEA0183).

In your case, newer plotter, I'd expect it to be able to deal with the NMEA2000 PGNs.

If you do that kind of test, it'd help to know the outcome.

-Chris

Chris...the NN3D can receive the DSC and DSE signals (you need both) so long as you have the latest 2.11 software version installed. N2k is not supported but obviously you could use a converter for that if you chose a n2k vhf that didn't also have 0183 out. I have a Std Horizon 0183 vhf that multiplexes both dsc signals with AIS receive at the high speed baud rate and my NN3D takes all this in without a problem. (My AIS transponder is independent....no need to hook it up with anything else.)

 

[Codger2]

I have an icom 605 and two 506s all with n2k.

How do you like the 506s?

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

We met a Great Looper couple last fall who were on their last two weeks of the trip. They had radar, which they said was rarely used. Their chart plotter and all other electronic navigational aids were apps that ran on their Ipad. The Ipad had a dongle that supplied GPS. Their primary app was Active Captain but they used others such as NEBO, and an AIS app.


They claimed the Ipad had more current information than any dedicated device has and they liked the fact that it was portable, particularly when entering next day's route at night in their cabin.



I'm going to try an Ipad. If it works for me, I've bought my last chart plotter or MFD.


Well maybe not my last. I use a fish finder for cruising since the display graphically shows water depth change. Most fish finders also chart plot.

Hasn't been that long since peeps used a Compass and a pair of binoculars for the same trip... None of the electronics are mandatory.Hardly an epic journey without the latest and greatest offerings from Raymarine or Garmin,advertising aside..

 

[Arthurc]

How do you like the 506s?

Best way to say it is, it’s complicated..
Overall vhf performance is fantastic, also an extremely usable interface. Icom support was great when one had an issue.

On the downside if you have 2 they have issues with n2k, both twistedtree and I have seen this. Unless you really want it I’d do them without n2k and save the money, but overall great radio.

 

[Pgitug]

Listening to many comments about Garmin. It seems that people who purchased Garmin Electronics become unhappy after four years of ownership due to cancelled product model support.