Recreational Boating & the Green Movement

[divebums]

Our plan has always been to retire, sell our current home, and buy a boat to do the loop and some diving in the keys and Bahamas for at least five years before moving back into a dirt home again. We're about 5 years from retirement now and getting much more serious about the planning but we're concerned about the changes coming along with the green movement.

We're having second thoughts about committing a large chunk of money to our next boat while the country is moving towards a net zero carbon goal. When we see GM planning for an all-electric line up by 2035 we wonder how we will possibly be able to have a couple of large gas or diesel engines draining our gas tanks for the next 10 years.

We are not looking for a political debate here! You can get that anywhere. We are wondering if anyone has any articles talking about the future of recreational boating as this world wide shift in energy usage evolves. Your opinions are certainly welcome as well but let's please try to stay away from political conjecture.

Boats are a depreciating liability and we recognize that with every boat we've purchased. Is anyone else rethinking similar plans? Does anyone have any articles they could recommend that discuss the issue? Will we really be able to own a 40' cruiser 10 years from now and burn thru fuel like we do today?

 

[Retriever]

I can't imagine there's going to be any issue with supply of gas or diesel on the water for a very long time. Critical marine industries (transportation, fishing, freight, law enforcement, etc.) need fossil fuels and there aren't viable alternatives for most marine missions.

But, if it really worries you, get a sailboat.

 

[rgano]

A boat is a "depreciating liability?" If that is your attitude, you are maybe in the wrong sandbox. I like to think of mine as depreciating assets.

Just sayin'....

 

[magna 6882]

Its hard to tell where things go when the government is involved. I think gasoline will continue to be taxed and could get more expensive but shouldn't effect marine. Diesel on the other hand will continue to be in demand for more then our lifetime. Trucking,Rail,Aircraft and heating will continue to rely on heavy fuels.Just my Guess.

 

[divebums]

I can't imagine there's going to be any issue with supply of gas or diesel on the water for a very long time. Critical marine industries (transportation, fishing, freight, law enforcement, etc.) need fossil fuels and there aren't viable alternatives for most marine missions.

But, if it really worries you, get a sailboat.

Agree completely that many industries will need gas/diesel for many years to come. I do wonder if that will only be made available to those industries and not to recreational boaters. Its hard to imagine that we will be phasing out the sale of new gas powered consumer cars to reduce emissions but allow recreational boaters to consume as much gas/diesel as they desire. At a minimum I wonder if we will see large tax increases on recreational fuel sales to reduce the purchase.

We've considered the sailboat option and haven't ruled it out. Under power isn't a bad option but 6 kts is pretty slow for us. Using sails doesn't support our needs either.

 

[divebums]

A boat is a "depreciating liability?" If that is your attitude, you are maybe in the wrong sandbox. I like to think of mine as depreciating assets.

Just sayin'....

Maybe that was the wrong word choice. We've loved and cared for all of our boats but they all seem to decrease in value no matter how much we care for them. We knew that before buying each one. Our concern is spending money on the likeliest most expensive boat we've ever bought heading into retirement and then having it "phased out" either by fuel prices or regulation.

 

[divebums]

Its hard to tell where things go when the government is involved. I think gasoline will continue to be taxed and could get more expensive but shouldn't effect marine. Diesel on the other hand will continue to be in demand for more then our lifetime. Trucking,Rail,Aircraft and heating will continue to rely on heavy fuels.Just my Guess.

I'd like to think that gas/diesel will continue to be available to us and not taxed to the point that its not a realistic option. Its just hard to imagine that the recreational boating industry will not be impacted if all consumer vehicles will be.

I've done several searches for studies or articles on the impact to recreational boating but not found much of use.

 

[Sealife]

If it is an efficient boat, an EV conversion wouldn't be out of the question. I looked into it, but not far enough along for me to pull the trigger a few years back.

 

[Benthic2]

I would think the first step would be outlawing new boats that burn gas/diesel. Then there will be some extended period for existing recreational boats to be allowed. I think there are 2 things that favor the boating industry. ( sorry....I'm going to have to get a little political here ) Boats are typically owned by the upper class, and politicians are usually reluctant to screw the upper class as they are the people that donate to their campaigns. Also, the world economy depends on the shipping of goods by cargo ship, and seafood is important to sustain the population. I think the cargo fleet, commercial fishermen and the military will keep fossil fueled boats alive for quite a while. It would be bad optics for the gov't to say the people can't have diesel boats, but law enforcement, fishermen and the military can.

 

[divebums]

I would think the first step would be outlawing new boats that burn gas/diesel. Then there will be some extended period for existing recreational boats to be allowed.

That's a great point! Much like GM is announcing that they are moving to an all EV line of cars for consumers in the next 15 years. Boating would probably start something similar. That would at least be a forward looking indicator for us that a shift in the industry is coming.

 

[AKDoug]

Maybe that was the wrong word choice. We've loved and cared for all of our boats but they all seem to decrease in value no matter how much we care for them. We knew that before buying each one. Our concern is spending money on the likeliest most expensive boat we've ever bought heading into retirement and then having it "phased out" either by fuel prices or regulation.

So do cars and RV's, there is no expectation that they will either hold their value or increase in value over time. They either are worth the investment you make in them for their usefulness or the joy you get out of having/using them, or they aren't.

I expect that fuel prices will continue to fluctuate, they hit a low a few years ago and are on their way back up now for political reasons and very well may hit new highs in a few years. That would give me pause if I were on a budget for boat ownership where fuel prices were a major consideration.

Every other component of maintaining a boat is also on the upswing, and reliable products are harder to come by than in the past. The idea that boats are/can be "green" is ludicrous, every component is mined to manufacture, from the hull to the electronics.

 

[BandB]

GM Targets 2035. That's like saying, "we see a likelihood sometime in the future we may". I don't even do 5 year plans, mainly one year with some financials extrapolated to 3. Does any here think they even have 2021 figured out?

Now, first, I struggle with the conflict between being environmentally active and running high hp diesel engines in boats, but I accept the contradiction. I conserve and protect where it's practical to do so. Buying electric vehicles in business, using nothing but LED bulbs and have all facilities very good from energy standpoints. When there are good replacements, we and others will migrate in our boats, but that's years if not decades away. We see commercial ships making efforts to find alternatives. I believe there will be a time where current fuels are banned for new boats. That will not lower the value of your used boat though but create a market like 4 stroked did for 2. Meanwhile all I can do is boat.

I'd simply advise against letting something that might happen years from now dictate what you do today.

As to fuel costs, the swing away from fossil would seem to keep the price from growing beyond affordability.

 

[CaptTom]

If it is an efficient boat, an EV conversion wouldn't be out of the question. I looked into it, but not far enough along for me to pull the trigger a few years back.

Pretty much what I was thinking. Given today's technology, converting mine would be very possible, but cost-prohibitive and somewhat limiting. I'm hoping battery and solar technology improves, and prices on these things continue to trend downward, between now and when I need a re-power. I'd love nothing better than to replace my four diesel tanks with batteries, and my mains with electric motors.

But none of this should drive any purchasing decisions until electric boats are common. Stay away from the bleeding edge for most things, if you want the lowest cost and highest reliability.

 

[Seevee]

I'd bet that it will be a LONG time before fossil fuels are no longer... certainly past our lifetime and our kids lifetimes.


Still the VAST majority of energy is from fossil fuel. Transportation, heating, factories, manufacturing, etc., etc.


Now, we have at least 20 years worth of oil just in the Baaken field in ND, and they're already engineering options for going deeper and getting a whole new crop of oil that could double that. And currently, just drilling on a small section that I'm familiar is 60 wells that are going up. And there's a lot more coming.


And the electric stuff has a lot of promise, it has a LONG way to go. Electric cars are still brutally more expensive than the gas counterpart and much more limited. And only the rich are buying them.... BandB?


While I'd love to see more efficient energy, it just ain't gonna happen, even under our destructive administration. And, hopefully after 4 years, we'll have better options and more sensible ways of dealing with energy.

 

[FWT]

A different big or bigger risk is that oil availability and prices become an issue. We recently became a net oil exporter due to fracking, but the latest administration is hitting fracking. That cuts supply, and ultimately raises prices. On top of that, the typical solution of tax-hungry government is to raise taxes to make things they don't like intentionally expensive.

In either case, an efficient go-slow trawler that sips fuel would be preferable to faster fuel hogs.

Under your scenario.

 

[BandB]

And the electric stuff has a lot of promise, it has a LONG way to go. Electric cars are still brutally more expensive than the gas counterpart and much more limited. And only the rich are buying them.... BandB?

By saying we bought electric, we actually bought hybrid. For company cars we use all Honda. When we bought a few years ago, hybrid didn't make sense to us. Now, however, it only adds about $1700 to an Accord and mileage goes from 30/38 to 48/48. Now, they don't offer Hybrid Civics, just Hybrid Insight, which is Hybrid only but about $1900 more than the Civic. It improves mileage from 30/38 to 55/49. So we do it both for the environment and because it's financially beneficial.

Tesla Roadster would be the rich car. Of course they promise but haven't yet delivered one.

 

[Retriever]

A different big or bigger risk is that oil availability and prices become an issue. We recently became a net oil exporter due to fracking, but the latest administration is hitting fracking. That cuts supply, and ultimately raises prices. On top of that, the typical solution of tax-hungry government is to raise taxes to make things they don't like intentionally expensive.

The price of oil has more to do with fracking viability than the current administration. Oil from shale plays is expensive to get out of the ground. When demand for oil is soft, like during the Covid lockdowns, prices drop and expensive shale oil is less attractive than cheap oil from conventional plays. Just look at the rig count last spring when prices plummeted. https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_oil_rotary_rigs

So far, the fracking moratorium is only for federal land/water. Private landowners (mineral owners, really) are still free to lease their mineral rights to oil companies, and those oil companies are free to frack.

 

[Brooksie]

I agree that diesel will be available on the water for decades. However, if the crazies continue to be in charge, it can easily be withdrawn for use in pleasure boats. They could do it tomorrow in several ways if they thought it would inconvenience enemies .

 

[Hippocampus]

Home heating is still #2 in many parts of the world. Given the durability of housing stock and economic burden to switch for much of the population suspect it will be available for some time to come. I just built a solar/geothermal zero footprint house. Even with incentives expensive initial outlay. Beyond the reach of many. It’s expensive to be poor. So yes much less expensive in the long run but the crossover is in 5 years and that’s a reach for many.it’s even worst when you consider the HERS rating required to to achieve that 5 year crossover. Feasible at at ~20% jump in new construction but not realistic for retrofitting the typical house. . Only <10% of new construction is zero footprint even now.
As % of oil burnt we are insignificant. #2 without modification can burn just fine in your vessel. Folks in my neck of the woods used to bootleg and buy a truck full loading their tanks in the middle of the night to escape taxes. Found it amusing they used the state pier as the trucks could go right out on it so their stock hose had no trouble filling the boats. Just saying.
Oil is used to make plastics. As long as we have that addiction drilling will continue. Transportation is likely to convert. The tech is already here and will continue to improve. 2035 is not unrealistic. NYT published an article showing as of today economically for the average daily driver e.vehicles are less expensive over their service life.
China has the lock on Li and rare earths. Geographically they are blessed with those mining resources. The e. vehicle development by GM, Ford and others is in partnership with Chinese companies. Finding non Chinese mining resources is a major geopolitical issue. We may trade world dependence on the Arabs for oil and Russians for gas to the Chinese for batteries.

 

[FF]

The Euros have battled for decades against gov diesel fuel taxes with good results .

Folks in the USA are no slouches at innovation. Remember how NASCAR got started.

Should the Greens attempt to tax our lifestyle out , there will always be alternatives

Tho sailing under opening bridges may slow land traffic a whole lot!

The fun will be watching the results of electric cars (in reality COAL powered cars ) as the grid without coal or nukes would be less than 1/2 size.

Carbon free is easy , but nuke power frightens some.

Used to be said " Knowledge is Power", today "Ignorance is Bliss" is preferred by leadership.

 

[Bobby Lex]

But, if it really worries you, get a sailboat.

+1.

When I owned my last sailboat -- a 15-ton bluewater boat -- I spent roughly 130 days aboard per year. I probably used a total of 50 gals of diesel per year.

 

[BDofMSP]

The fun will be watching the results of electric cars (in reality COAL powered cars ) as the grid without coal or nukes would be less than 1/2 size

In 2019 only 23% of electricity was produced by coal, and that's declining quickly. Really not accurate to paint electric cars as running on coal. Knowledge still is power.
BD

 

[moparharn]

Let's assume you are 62 years old. You will be 77 years old by the time GM "says" it will be "mostly electric". How much will this matter to you when you are 77? Given the current circumstances you might be better served worrying about seeing 63 years of age. Fossil fueled boats and cars are not going away in your lifetime. Electric cars would not even be on the road were it not for subsidies. There is not enough power generating capacity to fuel cars let alone trucks and boats, and there won't be in your lifetime most likely. The number of critical issues to be answered before this concern of yours has any traction is mind boggling. Live for today. Plan for tomorrow. Forget about 15 years from now.

Why do you suppose GM felt the need to make this announcement?

 

[Seevee]

Let's assume you are 62 years old. You will be 77 years old by the time GM "says" it will be "mostly electric". How much will this matter to you when you are 77? Given the current circumstances you might be better served worrying about seeing 63 years of age. Fossil fueled boats and cars are not going away in your lifetime. Electric cars would not even be on the road were it not for subsidies. There is not enough power generating capacity to fuel cars let alone trucks and boats, and there won't be in your lifetime most likely. The number of critical issues to be answered before this concern of yours has any traction is mind boggling. Live for today. Plan for tomorrow. Forget about 15 years from now.

Why do you suppose GM felt the need to make this announcement?

Good thought on "plan for tomorrow", but that's only half of the picture or perhaps maybe a whole lot less. What if you live a day after tomorrow? You need to plan for that.


And for the 62 year old..... it is statistically likely that he'll live well into his 90s, and could easily be very active into the high 80s. So, he must plan for the day after tomorrow, and things could significantly change in his remaining lifetime.

 

[Lollygag1]

I think the biggest impact on recreational boating will be a substantial increase in fuel cost. This will primarily be in the form of carbon taxes (which will also impact other costs that rely on oil to produce). Technology will continue to improve fuel efficiency but I cannot see fossils fuel use going away for a very long time.

 

[ScottC]

As much as I like electric/hybrid boating & vehicles, I don't buy the "green" argument for it quite yet.

As I understand it, the batteries required are seriously damaging to the environment -- both to produce and dispose of. I seriously wonder if this equation is any better than simply burning fossil fuels at this point. I'm sure studies have been done and will continue to be done, but I haven't seen a convincing one, in layman's terms, published yet.

 

[Codger2]

We are not looking for a political debate here!....... but let's please try to stay away from political conjecture....... Is anyone else rethinking similar plans?

I have given this subject considerable thought for about 4 years & even went solar on my house about 2 years ago. So far, the solar on my house has been great! Given that, I decided about 6 months ago to sell my beloved Sandpiper, an Ocean Alexander 42 Sedan. I loved that boat but tired of all the maintenance that was required to keep her in top shape. (Not to mention the property tax, insurance, etc. that accompany diesel powered boats.) Sticking my toe in the water after investigating all electric boats, I purchased a Duffy all electric cuddy cabin with a head and have been evaluating it for the last 2 months. Although I'm confined to cruising San Diego Bay, It's a big bay and at six knots it takes quite a bit of time to circumnavigate the entire bay! A full charge of the 16-6volt batteries on board provide 6.5 hours of cruising at 6 knots. Do I like it? No! I LOVE IT!
I'll be 80 in march so this Duffy is probably the farthest that my all electric pursuits will go but if I were in my 70's, I'd definitely take my investigation into larger all electric boats.

 

[GoneFarrell]

Let's say I go for a 6 hour run in my boat. 120 hp diesel, say 80 hp over 6 hours. That converts to about 360 kilowatt hours. If I could pull 30 amps from a 120V pedestal (doubtful) I'd be stuck there for about 100 hours to get that back. Add for recharge losses, looks like I'm there for 5 days. My 2×2 battery bank is good for less than 1/10th of that 6 hour run.

Feel free to beat this up, just trying to get a sense for the amount of energy & time involved for a boat bigger than a Duffy.

 

[rslifkin]

Let's say I go for a 6 hour run in my boat. 120 hp diesel, say 80 hp over 6 hours. That converts to about 360 kilowatt hours. If I could pull 30 amps from a 120V pedestal (doubtful) I'd be stuck there for about 100 hours to get that back. Add for recharge losses, looks like I'm there for 5 days.

Feel free to beat this up, just trying to get a sense for the amount of energy & time involved for a boat bigger than a Duffy.

That's exactly why the tech for electric boats isn't quite there yet. It'll get more practical over time, but right now, it only covers certain use cases.

 

[BDofMSP]

Why are you limited to 30 amp 120? 50 amp 240 is widely available and higher amperages are not unheard of.