Rebuild

[gonesailing13]

Can an engine be rebuilt without being taken out ? We have an engine that needs to be rebuilt but have no yards around us to do the work. Was given a name of a diesel mechanic who they they say can do the job but was wondering if it could be done at our marina.

 

[cafesport]

Top ends are pretty easy. Depending on the engine sleeves and pistons can also be done in situ. Cranks and bearings can also be done but the best course may depend on how much overhead space you have.

 

[Comodave]

Supposedly my 6CTA Cummins can be rebuilt in place since they have cylinder liners. Engines like a Cat 3208 do not have liners so they probably need to go to a machine shop. What particular engine are we talking about?

 

[sunchaser]

ER space to access the bottom end is critical. Usually once the head is removed there is vertical lift height available.

 

[fgarriso]

What engine(s) do you have?

 

[gonesailing13]

Engine is an Lehman 135

 

[twistedtree]

And what's wrong with it? I ask because it's common for people to jump to "it needs a rebuild" when a much more focused repair is all that's needed.

 

[O C Diver]

Engine is an Lehman 135

If you need to bore and sleeve the cylinders, it will need to be pulled out of the boat.

Ted

 

[Comodave]

And what's wrong with it? I ask because it's common for people to jump to "it needs a rebuild" when a much more focused repair is all that's needed.

Yes, have you talked to Brian at American Diesel about what is wrong with it?

 

[Choices]

Would be very interested to know how you reached this conclusion.

 

[garbler]

Detroit 53’s,71’s and 92’s are often rebuilt in ‘ frame ‘ as it’s called. Heads are typically removed to machine shop for service, cylinder kits which include liners, pistons and rods are installed ( no boring ) rod and main bearings are replaced some other stuff. I’ve watched a team of Detroit mechanics jump on a ferry’s 8V71 late Friday and the Ferry was back in service Sunday. It’s done all the time

Rick

 

[gonesailing13]

As to why I’m thinking rebuild, over the winter the starter shorted out and the engine started up. Not sure how long it ran but the problem was that the thru hull was closed so the engine overheated. Talked to Brian who told me to do a pressure test which I did and it’s not holding pressure. Haven’t had the chance to get back to the boat to do more investigating. One good thing is that the engine didn’t seize. Will get back to the boat in a couple weeks and see what to do next.

 

[rslifkin]

That definitely calls for some further diagnostics, but hopefully not a full rebuild. If it's got good compression and good oil pressure at hot idle, then the bottom end is likely healthy and you can avoid pulling the engine. If it turns out to have a bad head gasket or a warped head, that should be possible to sort out with the engine still in the boat.

 

[Benthic2]

How many hours are on it ?? Even if it does not need a complete rebuild as a result of this incident, if you think it might need it in the next couple of years it might be better to go all the way now instead of a partial rebuild now, and a full rebuild in a few years.

 

[Choices]

Ok, I remember your initial post.

If you can find a good Ford mechanic, maybe he could isolate the problem to valve seats or guides versus rings. Very big difference in cost.

If I were you, I would call the local to the boat Ford tractor service manager or better yet Ford tractor regional service manager.

Tell him your problem, how he would test to find problem, and who he would hire to do it, then go hire that guy. Do it in person!

As a Cummins factory guy, someone standing in front of me got 100% of my attention.

The right guy will save you bucks, time, and become a very valuable resource for us all.

Please post everything you encounter. Your situation is somewhat unique. Please title post with Lehman 135 in title or continue this string.

Best of luck! Wish I was close.

 

[Cold Duck]

Back to original question, yes they can sometimes. Depends on how much room to work, what's the issue etc. I rebuilt a 4000lb 12 cylinder 1350hp engine in the boat. As big a task as I ever want to take on again. Also, depending on your boat, you might be able to pull it up with hoist to salon level to rebuild, again depends on what condition engine is in. Finally, based on your comments I not sure it needs rebuild. I can run my Cat without a waterpump for a long time at slow idle without even overheating. As stated above, you really need to do more testing to find out if and what the damage might be. Check for bearing pieces in the oil (drain oil totally, not just an oil analysis).If these things come back ok, engine not making noise, you probably are ok. I wouldn't just to rebuild automatically unless there are other factors such as engine hours, etc that you just want a fresh engine. Good luck

 

[twistedtree]

What did you pressure test? Cooling system, I’m guessing, but maybe a compression test?

If the cooling system won’t hold pressure, I would guess a warped head and head gasket failure. That probably means coolant in one or more cylinders. Be cautious of hydrolock and doing more damage. A soaked cylinder may not be an issue, depending on whether rust has started to set in. I’d first verify that the pressure leak is in the engine, not the heat exchanger or some other external part. If it’s confirmed to be in the engine, then get the head of pronto and get any coolant cleaned out before you get rust. It may not be a huge job to get it working again.

BTW, I wouldn’t be surprised if this is covered by your insurance.

 

[PM]

The main problem with rebuilding a F.L in place is that to re-insert the camshaft the engine must be upside down. This requires additional space and equipment.

pete

 

[Larry M]

We had our FL 135 rebuilt out of the boat. The cost to remove the engine and reinstall was not that much. It took les than 4 hours to disconnect everything and get it out of the boat. And about the same to put it back. The crane cost about $300 x 2.

Good luck!

 

[Comodave]

Our last boat had Lehman SP225s in it. I built a crane in the salon and lifted each engine, 1 per winter, up out of the engine room and stacked it over the other engine to do work in the engine room. It took 3 of us about an hour and a half to actually do the pulling of each engine and about the same when we put them back in. I did not take them out of the salon, that would have been a huge job on that boat since there wasn’t a door from the salon to the side decks.

 

[SoWhat]

That definitely calls for some further diagnostics, but hopefully not a full rebuild. If it's got good compression and good oil pressure at hot idle, then the bottom end is likely healthy and you can avoid pulling the engine. If it turns out to have a bad head gasket or a warped head, that should be possible to sort out with the engine still in the boat.

Yes, head gasket or warped head are most likely problems. Relatively easy repair in situ. I don't think you could do a complete rebuild on a Lehman in place. Usually not enough room to drop the oil pan. I would not want to just remove the head and raise it up to work underneath an engine hanging from a chain. I would move it to the reinforced salon deck.

If you failed a pressure test and the cooling water tank is empty then the radiator fluid is somewhere TBD. Don't bar the engine over or start it. Pull the injectors.

If your cooling water tank is full, you can bar the engine over. I would probably pull the injectors and do compression checks first. Then get a borescope in to check cylinder walls.

The need for a rebuild will be clear once you check compression and cylinders.

 

[Sundancer268]

The main problem with rebuilding a F.L in place is that to re-insert the camshaft the engine must be upside down. This requires additional space and equipment.

pete

There is an easy workaround for the Tappet problem. You get some heavy duty pocket magnets and hold each lifter up. I carry a pocket Magnet that will pick up several pounds and being extendable, I can get it out the push rod holes and above the block. A simple wedge in the push rod holes will then keep the magnets and lifters in place until the cam is back in place.

 

[Xlantic]

FWIW, in the Lehman Ford 120s in my previous boat I had to replace the number 6 pistons and this was done in-situ.

 

[mickand]

If we're talking coolant pressure, you've probably only got a failed cylinder head gasket. I've overheated both my Lehman 120's and replacing the gasket was all it took. With the head off you'll find out if you've any coolant in the bores and treat accordingly. Lehman cylinder heads are extremely heavy and robust. Warping one would be almost impossible methinks.
If it takes you time to get to head removal, I suggest removing the injectors and filling the bores with oil to prevent ring/bore corrosion from any coolant that may have seeped in.

 

[slowgoesit]

What did you pressure test? Cooling system, I’m guessing, but maybe a compression test?

If the cooling system won’t hold pressure, I would guess a warped head and head gasket failure. That probably means coolant in one or more cylinders. Be cautious of hydrolock and doing more damage. A soaked cylinder may not be an issue, depending on whether rust has started to set in. I’d first verify that the pressure leak is in the engine, not the heat exchanger or some other external part. If it’s confirmed to be in the engine, then get the head of pronto and get any coolant cleaned out before you get rust. It may not be a huge job to get it working again.

BTW, I wouldn’t be surprised if this is covered by your insurance.[/QUOTE]


X2 on this comment! You insurance should cover the damage, and the good news is they probably won't fool around with trying to "repair it. They will just rebuild the entire engine. Also, if the transmission is turning, but not being cooled, they might end up replacing that as well.

Pro: You could very well end up with a "new" engine and transmission for the cost of the deductible.

Con: You will have an insurance claim on your record, but it should be covered under "comprehensive", so may not count against you too badly.
Best of luck in whatever you decide!

 

[psneeld]

Had several Lehman experts say they could rebuild my 120 in my single engine Albin 40 if need be.

 

[Mako]

... over the winter the starter shorted out and the engine started up.

That thought always gave me nightmares on every boat I've owned. Lesson learned about disconnecting power when leaving the boat for long periods.

 

[jleonard]

Had several Lehman experts say they could rebuild my 120 in my single engine Albin 40 if need be.

I always had a plan for mine if it blew, but it would have been a swap, not a rebuild.

 

[ronobrien]

The main problem with rebuilding a F.L in place is that to re-insert the camshaft the engine must be upside down. This requires additional space and equipment.

pete

I have never built a FL but I have done many Mack I6 "in chassis". A trick we used for the cam & lifters was to straighten out wire coat hangers and grind them to fine point on one end. We'd tap the pointy end into the oil holes in the lifters and gently pull the lifters up. We'd then tie the hangers together (2 at a time) with elastic bands. After the cam was in we'd yank the hangers out and the lifters would drop down to the cam. I don't know if the FL would work but that is how we solved the issue at Mack Trucks.

 

[Lepke]

Using a magnet on engine parts can magnetize them to degree that will cause them to draw metal debris to them, causing excessive cam and lifter wear.
In some tight enginerooms it is possible to lay the block on its' side to remove the pan and rods. In some cases I have jacked up the engine and blocked with heavy timbers to get to the bottom end.