Raised Pilothouse Models

[refugio]

...thus the nav rules say those coming from behind are the give way vessel...

Ane we're off to the races again...

"behind" is inexact, the actual reg is 22.5 degrees abaft the beam.

But it's much simpler than that - if you are "in sight" of another vessel you are required to give a whistle signal - how are you going to know if you are "in sight" of the other vessel if you don't freaking look?

And, of course, both vessels are required to avoid a collision. The idea that you can just maneuver at will without checking astern because if there were someone there they would be "overtaking" is irresponsible.

 

[Delia Rosa]

I never remotely inferred that you shouldn't have a complete picture of traffic around you...

I just feel that at 6-8 knots...you can leave the helm, walk back to the windows, walk outside, go up to the flying bridge...walk all the way around a 40 footer like mine and never even remotely be in danger of hitting something.

If you feel like you need a rearview camera..heck go for it...I feel like I am a competent, safe, on top of things skipper without one..because I get out of the helm chair and check things out...

Never said or even thought that you inferred that you shouldn't have a complete picture of traffic around you...I only wanted to reinforce the idea that if someone feels insecure about the tools they have, that they should add whatever works for them. Haven't investigated too much about the review camera.... although it could be a useful tool.. I was more interested in suggesting that rear windows. side decks and access to fly bridge can be helpful.

 

[refugio]

Wow...sounds so much busier than New York harbor, or the Chesapeake or the Savannah River...ooooooh...

Busier? I dunno, but Lake Union - or any other metropolitan harbor - on the 4th of July is pretty busy:

Or SeaFair watching the Blue Angels (none of these boats are anchored):

 

[refugio]

rear windows. side decks and access to fly bridge can be helpful.

Indeed, though they aren't really the same - moving to _both_ side decks to get a full view behind and on both quarters is a lot of moving around - time where you are away from the wheel and not paying attention forward. I often have guests in my PH and keeping them away from the side doors when "things are happening" is not easy, especially with younger folk.

I don't have a flying bridge (and I have 1/2" clearance above my steaming light when in my covered slip while the lake is high, so it's something I'm going to live without) but IMHO, being able to stand at the wheel AND turn to look astern and at both quarters is a valuable feature of a PH - and if I couldn't do that, I'd personally prefer a sedan model where I could at least look back through the saloon.

 

[Delia Rosa]

I don't have a flying bridge (and I have 1/2" clearance above my steaming light when in my covered slip while the lake is high, so it's something I'm going to live without) but IMHO, being able to stand at the wheel AND turn to look astern and at both quarters is a valuable feature of a PH - and if I couldn't do that, I'd personally prefer a sedan model where I could at least look back through the saloon.

In my last post, I mentioned that I agreed with you... we do have windows that we can see from the pilothouse position and they are quite valuable... we only added that port and starboard access to walk-around decks to check out the traffic and easy access to the flybridge area using our interior pilot house stairs made things even easier.

 

[refugio]

In my last post, I mentioned that I agreed with you...

As did I ("Indeed")!

You are clearly a man of perception and sound judgement.

 

[Delia Rosa]

As did I ("Indeed")!

You are clearly a man of perception and sound judgement.

Actually, most of our posts, but not all, are by me... a woman!!!!

 

[refugio]

Actually, most of our posts, but not all, are by me... a woman!!!!

Busted! I thought of that possibility as I was writing the post but I was in such a hurry to read the Marin thread that I just winged it.

 

[Delia Rosa]

Busted! I thought of that possibility as I was writing the post but I was in such a hurry to read the Marin thread that I just winged it.

That's okay... I usually check with Dan that anything I post is something we both agree with... I just type faster!

 

[Marin]

I can identify with Refugio's point about seeing behind you when cruising in this area. While there may be nothing in the Colregs spelling out rearward vision requirements, that does nothing to alleviate the problem of faster boats, particularly the small sportfishing boats(like our Arima) that are so popular around here. These guys are fishermen first, boaters second. I suspect the world "colreg" to most of them either implies some kind of medical procedure or a type of fishing accessory.

So they come blasting along at 30mph or more and there is no telling what they're going to do, what side they're going to pass you on, or what they assume you're going to do. So it is very prudent to always check behind before altering course because you never know if one of these folks could be zipping up on your stern with the intention of passing you just a couple of boat lengths away.

And in the narrower passes used by the ferries it's good to know if one is following you, even if it's a mile or two back as their speed is deceptively much greater than most diesel crusers like ours.

A GB has very good visibility all around from the main cabin with two windows in the aft cabin bulkhead. However we have a sailing dinghy on our aft cabin top so this blocks a lot of the view out the larger aft window on the starboard side. But as psneeld said, I can lean over and look aft down the starboard side deck and there is an aft window on the port side.

For close-in maneuvering and docking the visiblity from the lower helm is fine and we both have a good feel for where our stern is even if we don't actually step out and look at it. And the visibility around the sailing dinghy is sufficient for this sort of slow maneuvering work.

 

[Delia Rosa]

Busted! I thought of that possibility as I was writing the post but I was in such a hurry to read the Marin thread that I just winged it.

not a problem... just wanting to know.... so... even though we identify our responses as 'Susan and Dan' are there so few women on the forum that everyone assumes that the responder is a man... just curious.. or does it depend on the thread.. if it is more or less technical????

 

[MilShooter]

Regardless of how busy a location might be, and also recognizing rules about the 'give way' vessel.... like refugio, I would rather have as complete a picture of the traffic as possible and avoid any potential problems. As we all know, even if you have the right of way, dead is still dead!

(snipped).

I just had to chuckle when I read your statement, "dead is still dead". During one of my earlier classes on boat handling, we were aboard a Chris Craft Constellation and I was at the helm. Adjacent to the wheel and throttles, there was a brass placard that read,

"Such was the fate of Captain O'Day
Who died defending his right of way.
Although he was right as he sped along,
He's just as dead as though he was wrong."

I don't know why I remembered this ditty, but I found that I always kept it in mind when "forcing" my right of way, especially with a larger vessel that presumably would take a mile to slow to a stop.

MilShooter

 

[psneeld]

Wow...guess I have a hard time imagining the awesome responsibility and absolute concentration it must take commanding a 40-50 something, recreational boat doing a whopping 6-10 knots.

All I can say is that I never imagined instant 360 degree visibility and reaction time must be critical for safe navigation...

My apologies for misinterpreting the rules as they are stated...

When I get bored at work I can only think of how I can hone my skills when out recreating...this must be a piece of cake for most here....pushing 120 foot barges with 26 foot tugs around these lagoons...

 

[refugio]

...so... even though we identify our responses as 'Susan and Dan' are there so few women on the forum that everyone assumes that the responder is a man... just curious.. or does it depend on the thread.. if it is more or less technical????

Speaking just for myself, I don't look at signatures - I see the avatar and boat picture. I used to use my name back on the trawlerlist, but now I don't - trying to keep my professional and private lives separate.

 

[Delia Rosa]

I just had to chuckle when I read your statement, "dead is still dead". During one of my earlier classes on boat handling, we were aboard a Chris Craft Constellation and I was at the helm. Adjacent to the wheel and throttles, there was a brass placard that read,

"Such was the fate of Captain O'Day
Who died defending his right of way.
Although he was right as he sped along,
He's just as dead as though he was wrong."

I don't know why I remembered this ditty, but I found that I always kept it in mind when "forcing" my right of way, especially with a larger vessel that presumably would take a mile to slow to a stop.

MilShooter

When we were bringing our trawler home a few years ago, during our transit of Long Island Sound we had a very close moment with a very large tug... although we were on the outside edge of the commercial transit area, in fog even with radar... we were almost hit by a very large tug... they never recognized our trawler even after loud alarms from our boat... we were fortunate to survive the experience!! We now have AIS!!!

 

[Delia Rosa]

When we were bringing our trawler home a few years ago, during our transit of Long Island Sound we had a very close moment with a very large tug... although we were on the outside edge of the commercial transit area, in fog even with radar... we were almost hit by a very large tug... they never recognized our trawler even after loud alarms from our boat... we were fortunate to survive the experience!! We now have AIS!!!

This is only to say that whatever safeguards you have, they are important!

 

[psneeld]

When we were bringing our trawler home a few years ago, during our transit of Long Island Sound we had a very close moment with a very large tug... although we were on the outside edge of the commercial transit area, in fog even with radar... we were almost hit by a very large tug... they never recognized our trawler even after loud alarms from our boat... we were fortunate to survive the experience!! We now have AIS!!!

Many of the tug guys I know think we are nothing but speed bumps.

Maybe now after the duck boat thing in Philly...they may not be so arrogant...or at least not be on their phones when they run us over...

 

[healhustler]

Visibility aft was not one of our priorities in boat selection, but we prefer the style and convenience of raised pilothouse boats like the DeFever 49 and more recently, the Ocean Alexander we saw at Trawlerfest Ft. Lauderdale. Here in Miami where busy holidays are more like a day at the races, we delight in the visibility from the helm of our Manatee. If we made a move to another mono-hull boat, I'd probably look for the best conditioned RPH I could find, most likely a DeFever 49 or Krogen Whaleback.

 

[KCaldwell]

The twin versus single screw debate was pretty much what I thought it would be, but there was very little comment on the displacement versus semi-displacement. Any of you that have full displacement hulls ever in a situation where you wished you could go faster? Or is it something you just get used to and you plan around currents & tides? And for the people that have semi-displacement hulls, do you ever really use the extra speed or do you run in the 8 knot range most of the time anyway?

 

[ksanders]

The twin versus single screw debate was pretty much what I thought it would be, but there was very little comment on the displacement versus semi-displacement. Any of you that have full displacement hulls ever in a situation where you wished you could go faster? Or is it something you just get used to and you plan around currents & tides? And for the people that have semi-displacement hulls, do you ever really use the extra speed or do you run in the 8 knot range most of the time anyway?

We run our semi displacement boat at displacement speeds 90% of the time. The boat is level, and the boat "feels right"

We occasionally bump the speed up to 15 knots. We do this when for whatever reason we want to get somewhere and time is limited.

A good example of this is that we want to make a comfortable anchorage but got delayed getting out of the harbor. If we bump up the speed we can get there in a little over 1/2 the time. The avaibility of speed can and has made a positibe difference in our cruising experiences.

 

[Phil Fill]

Absolutely love our raised pilothouse - with large rear-facing windows that give excellent visibility (we have a queen berth /settee in the PH and prefer to sleep there). I see lots of pilothouses with solid aft bulkheads - or tiny portholes easily obscured - and I know that they would definitely bug me underway.

So what is the black thing on the stern that looks like an out drive? Your get home?

 

[Moonstruck]

So what is the black thing on the stern that looks like an out drive? Your get home?

It looks like a device to turn the exhaust down to direct the water flow away from the dinghy and act as a muffler.

 

[FF]

Any pilot house is fine ,

BUT if the forward facing windows are sealed/inoperable , being anchored out , with a fine cooling breeze , still means the Air Cond & Noisemaker will be on.

UGH!!!

 

[Keith]

The twin versus single screw debate was pretty much what I thought it would be, but there was very little comment on the displacement versus semi-displacement. Any of you that have full displacement hulls ever in a situation where you wished you could go faster? Or is it something you just get used to and you plan around currents & tides? And for the people that have semi-displacement hulls, do you ever really use the extra speed or do you run in the 8 knot range most of the time anyway?

No, I cruised my planing hull boat on one engine at 7-8 knots for a year to make sure I could really stand traveling at that speed. Saved a lot of gas! Got the full displacement Krogen 42 and love it! You just have to plan for traveling at that speed. I love the fuel bills, or lack therof.

 

[Marin]

And for the people that have semi-displacement hulls, do you ever really use the extra speed or do you run in the 8 knot range most of the time anyway?

Grand Banks are semi-planing hulls (the term semi-displacement, while commonly used, is actually inaccurate. It's sort of like saying semi-dead A boat is either displacement or it's not, whereas there are varying degrees of being on a plane). If we had engines that could do it, we would cruise our boat at 9 or 10 knots, maybe more. But the engines in our boat can't do that so we cruise at about 8 knots and hate it despite the economy. Slow sucks, is our motto.

But we've met a number of boaters who rountinely cruise their higher-powered, semi-planing boats much faster than hull speed. In fact it is the large market of people like this that led Grand Banks and others to start putting larger and larger engines into their boats sarting in the later 80s. The buyers, many of whom have limited time for boating, want to get to their destinations as fast as possible, then cruise around at a slower pace, and then blast home again, thus maximizing their time in the waters they want to visit and minimizing the time it takes to get there and back.

A classic example in this area is Desolation Sound. People with high-power GBs can get there from the northern end of Puget Sound at 15-16 knots in a day and a half to two, where it takes us four days at 8 knots if the weather cooperates. This is running a reasonable amount of time each day, not running sunrise to sunset or all day and all night.

Everything is relative but fuel remains one of the smallest costs of boating. To people who can afford new or newish GBs, Flemings, etc, fuel is the next thing to being free. They believe their time is far more valuable than fuel, so they are willing to run for a few days at 23-30 gph to maximize their vacation time in the waters they want to be in, like Desolation Sound. Once there they're happy to plod around at 8 or 9 knots burning 7 or 8 gph. The semi-planing hull can provide the means to do both.

We would definitely use it that way if we had a boat that could take advantage of the hull design. Unfortunately, we have the hull but we don't have the power. If we end up reworking the boat we have now, we will install somewhat more powerful engines so we can climb out of the 8 knot primordial ooze and "zip" along at 10 or 12.

 

[charles]

I had a pilot house boat, 45 CHB, see the avatar, for 25 yrs and over 6,300 hours and would do it again, P/H is the "only way to go" comfortably cruising. Other opinions vary!!
It is a twin but if I had my druthers after all those yrs a single would be my choice! Again opinions vary.
CCC

 

[refugio]

It looks like a device to turn the exhaust down to direct the water flow away from the dinghy and act as a muffler.

Good catch - it's a Salisbury exhaust director. I just googled it and came up with this mention of a Salisbury Hydro-Vac:
Detroit Diesel Fuel Consumption ... yes another thread

I have a Volvo TMD100A that is 30+ years old and very old-school tech-wise, so it smokes a bit when cold and the exhaust director helps push that below the water where it reduces the soot on my transom (and doesn't asphyxiate nearby boaters).

I moor on Lake Washington, and there are a lot of near-shore critters that like to crawl up into exhausts and munch on rubber bits, and I think this helps deter them (and my exhaust is rigid all the way to the AquaLift muffler).

 

[refugio]

I had a pilot house boat, 45 CHB, see the avatar, for 25 yrs and over 6,300 hours and would do it again, P/H is the "only way to go" comfortably cruising.

Hey Charles! I was meaning to say "hi" from the old trawlerlist. I was thinking of you the other day when someone was talking about replacing their teak decks - whatever happened to that PDF from your Passagemaker article? Even googling it now all I can find is a CBrats reference from Dr. Bob....is it online somewhere?

FWIW, I think it was you who also turned me on to Gulf Coast Filters - ten plus years later I'm still loving that one.

Thanks for your contributions over the years! (Keith Pleas)

 

[refugio]

Grand Banks are semi-planing hulls (the term semi-displacement, while commonly used, is actually inaccurate...)

FWIW, here's a discussion of the hull form of a Fleming 53 ("a hard-chined, semi-displacement hull") compared to a Kady Krogen 54 by Ken Hankinson, "Naval Architect", but then what would he know about boats compared to Marin.

 

[Marin]

I adhere to naval architect Tom Fexas' definition who's the one I read debunk the "semi-displacement" myth. His explanation made all sorts of sense to me.

I don't know that just putting your exhaust outlet underwater will necessarily deter a muskrat from climbing up into your exhaust. A friend of a friend was one of the people at the Seattle Yacht Club slips who had their boat sunk by a muskrat awhile back. They apparently thought they were immune because their boat had underwater exhausts. The reliable prevention seems to be a stainless screen or bars over the exhaust outlet.