RADAR - manual or auto tune? Chart overlay?

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Even better, AIS allows you to make a DSC call to the vessel -- very handy if they don't respond to their name. And with DSC, if the radio is on, it will beep annoyingly until the DSC call is answered (or at least for a long time). One off shore the military was hailing a cruise ship by name and it took 10 minutes for the cruise ship to respond. Finally, the military vessel was able to direct the cruise ship to alter its course, unfortunately to a collision course with me. I hailed the cruise ship by DSC, received an almost immediate response and quickly resolved the conflict.

I have never used the DSC call feature. The radar displays the other vessels AIS signature with the vessels name on the triangle icon, so its easy enough to hail them. The manual for my VHF to make a DSC call to another vessel lists about 4 different steps to get there. Doesn’t that take extra time? I understand the scenario that you described were you used it, but it seems to me that hailing them by name on 16 is faster? Again, I have not used the DSC call feature so I may be missing something.
 

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I miss my old Furuno with FTC, STC, Tune, Gain and Range knobs right at hand. All could be instantly adjusted without having to search through menus or even looking at the knobs. Far superior to any "auto" I've seen.
 
:thumb:

A few additions:

I use my radar more than most because I find myself traveling at night more than I should or in bad vsby.

Being a weatherman, I was also familiar with analog weather radar and my analog Raymarine works pretty much the same, but without an azimuth adjustment.

Having said all that, I find a few things of critical importance to using and understanding your radar:

1. When I start the engine and turn on the nav lights, radio, etc, the radar gets turned on. It's critically important that you understand what various returns look like in good visibility, so that if you need to use your radar when you can't see, you know what it's telling you. A separate display is a necessity. In the beginning I thought a combined display would be good, but I quickly understood that too much information on one screen will block critical things at critical moments.

2. Related to that, I always correlate returns I see on the radar with what is on the chart or out the window. Always. That's the only way to make sure your adjustments are correct for the conditions. When I have new crew mates at the helm, that is an exercise I have them do continually.

3. To that end, I never use the "auto" settings. They are invariably wrong and worse, usually with "auto" the sensitivity (gain and filter) is too low, meaning there are less returns, but you don't know what it isn't showing you.

Lastly, I do the above, because there are times, usually at night, when my brain is saying one thing, but my radar and chart plotter are saying something else. I must know to ignore my senses and trust the radar.

Richard pretty much described my feelings. I might not run the radar as religiously on short day trips but when I head out on a major trip the radar goes on and the tuning starts.
 
So I have 2 Furuno radars. Open and a closed array. I operate the open whenever cruising. I operate both when in fog and night. One at a longer range (3-6) and one close (under 1). Looking to replace the Open. What brand/model do people suggest? This thread has me decided I don't need overlay. I like using my Rose Point along with ais as a standalone. Need a good radar with target discrimination. If this deserves a new thread please move.
 
From my reading, the current gen Furuno NXT and Simrad Halo radars are some of the best. The Furuno gets my pick due to having proper ARPA, while the Simrad only has MARPA (and I've seen complaints about it not working all that well).
 
So I have 2 Furuno radars. Open and a closed array. I operate the open whenever cruising. I operate both when in fog and night. One at a longer range (3-6) and one close (under 1). Looking to replace the Open. What brand/model do people suggest? This thread has me decided I don't need overlay. I like using my Rose Point along with ais as a standalone. Need a good radar with target discrimination. If this deserves a new thread please move.



Want to add that I like long product support...
 
I miss my old Furuno with FTC, STC, Tune, Gain and Range knobs right at hand. All could be instantly adjusted without having to search through menus or even looking at the knobs. Far superior to any "auto" I've seen.

Amen to that Boatpoker. Add in the old Kevin Monahan book on how to tune radar and a few long trips, and it was super easy.

As mentioned, my old Furuno CRT died last year before headed from San Francisco to Mexico. I had pre-purchased a Simrad system and did a hasty install to get me down the coast, but full install will be part of the finalized refit, which is running late due to Covid and general delays.

I chose Simrad over Furuno. I narrowed the field as I wanted a dial/wheel input instead of touch-screen or touch-pad. In the end, I felt Furuno was stale and resting on its reputation. It was over-priced, and even in modern installations - I spent a bunch of time with a friend’s a 2015 TZT2 system which was a bit glitchy for my tastes. Difficulty updating firmware via wifi, difficulty finding certain settings such as why the time/clock is 25-minutes wrong; and it didn’t seem to integrate easily with other Furuno instruments such as a Furuno wind gauge. Yes, I was aware of the issues with MARPA with Simrad, but those complaints were a couple years old and ultimately resolved with addition of a rate-stabilized GPS which the Furuno also requires.

In the end, I resolved that these systems are now perishable – they have a roughly 10-year shelf life. You can get 80% of what you need in a $5k package, add-in another $5k for an additional MFD and a the compass, and you have a damn fine system for a relatively small amount of money. It will not give you a beefy/manly pilothouse full of screens and Black Box electronics, but it will give you what you need to voyage safely.

In a perfect world and an unlimited budget and generous dashboard real estate, I'd have a 6-foot narrow-beam open-array Furuno for long range targets such as squalls/cells, and one of the newer digital systems such as the Navico HALO for short range definition.

The only thing I would do differently is spend more time finding the right retail outlet to purchase. Rather than depend on Navico or Furuno for technical support and simply purchase from an online retailer, I'd find a small independent seller with deep knowledge. I purchased through BOE Marine who had excellent technical support at the time, but have since seemingly just become a pure reseller.

Peter
 
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If you don’t have a heading sensor in the network it is a worthwhile investment. Nice to have a heading line as well as a predictor line (course over ground) Makes north up / course up / heading a lot easier to comprehend. Especially if you are lucky enough to travel in waters with a good current. Also stops things from spinning when you are stopped. I replaced 1 magnetic compass with a KVH compass. Very worthwhile.
 
Could be semantics. My meaning of heads up vs course up: Heads up swings with wherever the bow is pointed and can swing quite a bit depending on vessel and sea state. Course up stays pointed at the way point and does not swing.

I find course up much easier to interpret, especially if I'm triangulating visual sight lines for a target. Somehow, targets - especially vessels - always seem like they are at a different angle than shown on the radar.


I don't think I could get used to course up. I'm used to the immediate RADAR relationship between object and our bow -- or between object and our lubber line -- or between object and a forward/aft line bisecting our bow and stern... etc. When I'm facing the bow, those same relationships apply to "object and me" at the same time.

No matter which way the boat is pointing, I'm atuned to all that... easy, and intuitive, for me... whereas with course up it would seem the immediate relationship isn't relative to the boat but rather to where the boat should be heading at any given time. Which would also seem to bring in set and drift offsets...

I think I'd probably run into stuff.

:)

I could maybe appreciate occasional north up comparisons to a north up chart... but OTOH I could also change the chart momentarily to head up for comparison to a head up RADAR and get pretty much the same benefit...

-Chris
 
WIW, I find head-up on the radar intuitive, the other options... not.

OTOH, I prefer north-up on the chart (whereas my chief navigator thinks better using the head-up display).

-Chris


I'm the same way. I like the radar in heads up, so it's seeing what my eyes are seeing. And charts are north up, because that's how you read a chart.



But whatever works for you is just fine.
 
Yes, I was aware of the issues with MARPA with Simrad, but those complaints were a couple years old and ultimately resolved with addition of a rate-stabilized GPS which the Furuno also requires.


I'm the person who identified and published the Simrad MARPA problem, and worked with Simrad to ultimately determine (their determination) that it was a problem with their MARPA implementation.


The problem was NOT resolved with the addition of a rate-stabilized GPS, and in fact was never resolved.


It was not a simple case of needing a rate-stabilized GPS, or any other instrumentation problem. In fact, I had two different rate-stabilized heading device including the very best one they offered at the time which was a satellite compass. I could easily reproduce the problem with either compass.


A lot of people, including a whole article on Panbo, said the problems I was seeing were 1) operator error (I assumed this for a while), 2) an installation problem (what you have suggested), or 3) an inherent limitation in small radars. In conjunction with Simrad themselves, all of these were ruled out, and Simrad ultimately agreed that they had an internal design problem.


A couple of years later they released an improved implementation, first available for the Halo radars, then for newer versions of the 4G radar. Older 4G radars and their commercial pulse radars like the ones I had can not be updated, and will forever have broken MARPA. So my equipment would be broken to this day, had I kept it.


Some day I'd love to try the improved MARPA first hand to see how well it works. The test is quite easy. Pick a target that has AIS, then also acquire it with MARPA. It will now have two icons and two heading/speed vectors. Monitor the two vectors and see how they correlate over time. They should always be the same, or very close.
 
I had a first Gen Simrad 4G and noticed the same problems with Marpa as noted by TT. He knows electronics well and documented the problem in detail in his blog.

Our current boat has Furono with a NXT Radar and it’s fed by an SC30 Sat Compass and a PG700 is the back up. I periodically click on targets to see their COG and Bearing to verify things are matching up to what I am seeing on the radar screen and my naked eye.

Also, if anyone is using DSC, I would be interested to hear their feedback on my earlier question (Post 31) in this thread regarding calling other vessels with it.
 
Also, if anyone is using DSC, I would be interested to hear their feedback on my earlier question (Post 31) in this thread regarding calling other vessels with it.


I agree that using DSC as described in any VHF manual is completely unusable, and assurance that it will never be used. I think the only practical way anyone uses it is with a pre-programmed set of buddy boat MMSIs.


I think it's also really lame that there is no standardized way to initiate a DSC call via N2K, and that the method in 0183 isn't widely supported. I think DSC would be very usable if you could click on an AIS icon on your plotter or radar and initiate a DSC call to them. This can be done with some single-vendor system via proprietary communications, but I have no interest in that.


What has occurred to me recently is that this might be a good reason to have DSC receive capability in you VHFs. This would of course be in addition to a proper AIS transceiver. The problem with having both a transceiver and one or more VHF AIS receivers is that many other electronic devices on your boat can't handle it when there are multiple AIS data sources. They become some combination of 1) overwhelmed by all the data, 2) confused over which AIS to listen to, 3) constantly alarming because they think your AIS transmission is a collision threat. All this come back to not having any standards for how this should work in an N2K network.


But the light bulb that finally lit for me is that you can simply not connect the AIS output from the VHFs to your network, and just keep it local to the VHF. Then there is no network confusion, yet your VHF has a list of AIS targets. Then you can scroll through the list on the VHF and click on it to place a call. I think that will be a very useful work around. The caveat I need to offer up is that I haven't actually tried this yet, but it's how I've set up our boat in hopes that it makes DSC a usable function.
 
I
The problem was NOT resolved with the addition of a rate-stabilized GPS, and in fact was never resolved.

It was not a simple case of needing a rate-stabilized GPS, or any other instrumentation problem. In fact, I had two different rate-stabilized heading device including the very best one they offered at the time which was a satellite compass.

Looks like the Panbo kerfuffle was in 2015. Well, according to the Simrad Tech Support site, a rate-stabilized compass plus some sort of interface box will solve the problem. This does not seem like a very elegant solution - as a matter of fact, pretty clunky.

Thanks for your effort in this TT. Always good to see people actually pick-up a shovel and dig-in vs sit on sidelines and complain.

Peter
 
I chose Simrad over Furuno. I narrowed the field as I wanted a dial/wheel input instead of touch-screen or touch-pad...... In the end, I resolved that these systems are now perishable – they have a roughly 10-year shelf life.....The only thing I would do differently is spend more time finding the right retail outlet to purchase.. .
I've found, through countless past mistakes in purchasing electronics, the above points are founded in valuable experience. Lessens learned: 1) Get a set with a knob...much easier to use when in a sea-way & 2) seek out an extremely knowledgeable electronics vendor. Buy from him and stop in periodically for a cup of coffee. The knowledge you pick up is priceless and the friendship that is fostered even more so.
 

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I think DSC would be very usable if you could click on an AIS icon on your plotter or radar and initiate a DSC call to them. This can be done with some single-vendor system via proprietary communications, but I have no interest in that.

Doesn't the new Vesper VHF solve this problem?

I've never made a DSC call on my VHF in either boat, by the time I waded through the manual and punched all the keys necessary, he'd be over the horizon. Most of the companies would be well served by hiring a man-machine interface expert. Even a little common sense would to a long way.
 
Amen to that Boatpoker. Add in the old Kevin Monahan book on how to tune radar and a few long trips, and it was super easy.

As mentioned, my old Furuno CRT died last year before headed from San Francisco to Mexico. I had pre-purchased a Simrad system and did a hasty install to get me down the coast, but full install will be part of the finalized refit, which is running late due to Covid and general delays.

I chose Simrad over Furuno. I narrowed the field as I wanted a dial/wheel input instead of touch-screen or touch-pad. In the end, I felt Furuno was stale and resting on its reputation. It was over-priced, and even in modern installations - I spent a bunch of time with a friend’s a 2015 TZT2 system which was a bit glitchy for my tastes. Difficulty updating firmware via wifi, difficulty finding certain settings such as why the time/clock is 25-minutes wrong; and it didn’t seem to integrate easily with other Furuno instruments such as a Furuno wind gauge. Yes, I was aware of the issues with MARPA with Simrad, but those complaints were a couple years old and ultimately resolved with addition of a rate-stabilized GPS which the Furuno also requires.

In the end, I resolved that these systems are now perishable – they have a roughly 10-year shelf life. You can get 80% of what you need in a $5k package, add-in another $5k for an additional MFD and a the compass, and you have a damn fine system for a relatively small amount of money. It will not give you a beefy/manly pilothouse full of screens and Black Box electronics, but it will give you what you need to voyage safely.

In a perfect world and an unlimited budget and generous dashboard real estate, I'd have a 6-foot narrow-beam open-array Furuno for long range targets such as squalls/cells, and one of the newer digital systems such as the Navico HALO for short range definition.

The only thing I would do differently is spend more time finding the right retail outlet to purchase. Rather than depend on Navico or Furuno for technical support and simply purchase from an online retailer, I'd find a small independent seller with deep knowledge. I purchased through BOE Marine who had excellent technical support at the time, but have since seemingly just become a pure reseller.

Peter


Did exactly the same thing, Simrad to get the knob/touch which I love and bought from BOE whom I was happy with. But got a local installer who was pretty knowledgable to help with the install, especially the autopilot.


I'm pretty happy with the Simrad radar... for a relatively cheap radar it does quite well. At times, wish it were more powerful and had better range performance. I usually set it up with one display that overlaps the map (occasionally) and another at short range (even down to 200 feet for crab traps at times).



Next time, will get the next step better. Don't miss the old analog radars at all. Fun to play with, but too much hassle to get a result (but had some advantages).
 
I'm still planning for an eventual electronics refresh on my boat. The user interface had me planning Simrad NSS MFDs and Halo24 radar at first, but since the Furuno TZTouch3 came out, I expect I'll go that route. The 12" version has physical controls in addition to the touchscreen and the Furuno NXT radar seems to be as good or better, plus having ARPA.
 
Looks like the Panbo kerfuffle was in 2015. Well, according to the Simrad Tech Support site, a rate-stabilized compass plus some sort of interface box will solve the problem. This does not seem like a very elegant solution - as a matter of fact, pretty clunky.

Thanks for your effort in this TT. Always good to see people actually pick-up a shovel and dig-in vs sit on sidelines and complain.

Peter


Well, a rate compass is needed for (M)ARPA no matter what, and regardless of brand. So saying that adding a rate compass will "fix" MARPA is like saying you need a radar to have radar.


Regardless, it's all hopefully in the past, though I'd still love to see a video from someone who is unbiased showing it working, and say it works correctly ALL the time. Showing it working right once doesn't count. It previously worked right some of the time, just not all of the time, or even most of the time.
 
Doesn't the new Vesper VHF solve this problem?

I've never made a DSC call on my VHF in either boat, by the time I waded through the manual and punched all the keys necessary, he'd be over the horizon. Most of the companies would be well served by hiring a man-machine interface expert. Even a little common sense would to a long way.


I think it would, but no differently or better than any other VHF with built-in AIS, or one that can be fed external AIS. The key is that the list of boats visible via AIS, and hence eligible to be called via DSC, needs to be in the VHF. That way the VHF already knows each of their MMSI numbers. The fundamental problem is that chart plotters and radars can't send that info to a VHF, and that's what you need to call another boat.
 
Thanks for the info regarding DSC. I understand the original post by MV Traveler where he used it successfully offshore when there was no response by another boat (ship), but inshore when things are tight and happening fast, its not a good method.
 
Good post. Question for you TT: guessing you do some distance runs. How do you manage radar tuning for crew? Are you comfortable they are knowledgeable to tune, or do you leave in auto? What other console changes do you make for crew watch?

Peter

Time for a Sea Story: In today's age I would simply use the auto tune, especially if you have several watch standers. Back in the day when I working freighters we ran hard aground on a reef at 22 kts in clear weather. I wasn't on watch. Every time I took the watch I would turn the gain and clutter down and then retune based on my preferences.
The mate that had the watch on this particular night had improperly tuned the radar with the gain at minimum and the sea clutter at maximum. He couldn't see anything using the radar.
This incident occurred before the change of watch. The relief mate followed his routine of tuning the radar and once tuned he realized that the ship was headed for the reef. This is way before GPS and Loran wasn't much help in our area so we were DRing.
The mate that had the watch refused to believe that we were headed for a reef (in the middle of the ocean) since he could see fishing boats ahead of us. Problem was the fishing boats were on the other side of the reef.
Two weeks later we were pulled off of the reef and more than 100 bottom plates had to be replaced.
Just saying..
 
So I grew up on 1960s radar and really hated but living in south Florida I really didn’t need radar until I went to the worlds fair in NY in 1964 and got hit with fog, I learned to go Ted’s speed back then. I now have 4 radar screens on the boat (two up and two down). The new Garmins are fantastic on auto (I do occasionally tweek the machines and I like chart overlay, it makes it easier to identify. I still don’t like fog.
 
I prefer not to use radar chart overlay. Having come from decades of using paper charts, my brain thinks in North Up (never turned a paper chart to figure which way I was going).
Ted
ar

Having grown up with gyro data to all the radars I used aboard ships, I cannot generally abide a head-up radar display which has the targets wandering about the screen as heading changes. It's a good way to have a collision. I have occasionally used head-up display in a winding channel for short periods of time. I am particularly fond of my Furuno's north-up display for the radar, and thus the chart overly function has radar slaved to the north-up of the chart.

Like others, and Ted, I am not about to trust radar auto-tune for the most part. As far as I am concerned, it is a departure point for getting the best return.
 
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