painting over varnish?

[bcarli]

I have some brightwork that I am tired of dealing with. I have a good build up of varnish and I am thinking of painting it an off gray.
I imagine I rough it up with 180 grit sandpaper wipe it down with a tack cloth and start painting?
Any input
thanks

 

[Comodave]

It may or may not stick. On our last boat we sanded the varnish off to bare teak. Then primed and painted 3 coats of Brightside on it. Looked beautiful and had lasted for about 4 years here and still looked like new. But here the boat goes into the barn for half the year.

 

[socalrider]

I have some brightwork that I am tired of dealing with. I have a good build up of varnish and I am thinking of painting it an off gray.
I imagine I rough it up with 180 grit sandpaper wipe it down with a tack cloth and start painting?
Any input
thanks

We did that this season, so still too early to tell, but many seemed to have had good luck with the method. Advantage over taking it down to bare teak, besides less work, is that if someone else wants to go back to varnish it's easier. Or at least that's what I was told...

 

[Nomad Willy]

Como,
I can’t imagine why a covering like paint wouldn’t adhere to varnish that’s been properly applied and that’s had a good sanding to remove all the old loose varnish.

I use a prec-coat cleaner that’s formulated for the purpose. It has the word “prep” in it’s brand name.

Vinyl coatings would be the most likely to have an adhesion issue from my experience w a vinyl top coating .. very thin build. But that was the vinyl coating not adhering.

 

[rslifkin]

I agree that unless there's something in the paint that would damage the underlying varnish (might be a concern with some 2 part paints) it should adhere fine over properly prepped varnish as long as the varnish is in good condition and well adhered.

 

[Comodave]

I am not saying it won’t stick, but it may not. Are you absolutely sure the varnish is stable? I would hate to invest a lot of work into the paint job and have it fail because the varnish failed. I took the teak down to bare wood, wiped it immediately before priming with acetone and then primed and painted it. It has been 4 to 5 years for some of the paint and it looked brand new when we sold the boat last summer. Personally I don’t care about what some potential future buyer wants to do with the boat. The buyer of my boat didn’t ask if there was varnish under the paint because he also thought the paint looked great.

 

[Bkay]

I've seen that done to good effect in the past. Yes to the sanding, but also need to wipe down with acetone and not just a tack cloth. I agree you need to check the compatibility of the paint type to the varnish. After that, I think you'll be fine as long as the varnish is well adhered.

 

[utclmjmper]

I think you will have a better finish by using 320 rather than 180 for prep..>>>Dan

 

[tiltrider1]

We all know that best practices says remove the varnish then prime and paint for best results. The next question is why wouldn’t you do it in accordance with best practices?

Admittedly, I got lazy one fall day and I put Awlwood gloss right over my varnish on a 10 foot section rather than stripping it.. Now I fully expected I would be stripping that 10 foot section come spring. Well what do you know, it has held up for three years.

In my case I really had nothing to loose as I was prepared to re do in the spring and we were talking about a small section. So if you have a reason to be lazy now and are prepared to work harder later then give it a try, who knows, you might get lucky.

 

[Slowmo]

It should be no problem. My uncle did this on his CC Constellation back in the 60's. He didn't want to deal with bright work so he sanded and painted. It never came off.

 

[Benthic2]

You might want to make sure that you use a primer paint that is specifically a "bonding primer" or one that has "adhesion" in its name. Before priming I would wipe the entire surface with TSP, ( and then water ) That will help the primer adhere. I would also use a latex primer and topcoat vs oil. If you go with oil you can skip the TSP step.

You'll also want to pay attention to the temperature and humidity. If its too humid the paint will not cure properly, and if its too warm or windy the paint may dry too fast to level smoothly.

Expensive paint is usually worth it.

If you get a custom tint, be sure to record the color code.

 

[SoWhat]

I think you will have a better finish by using 320 rather than 180 for prep..>>>Dan

I was going to suggest 120 to give a better surface for the paint to adhere to. If I am unsure about what's on existing surface I will use a prime coat after sanding.

 

[grahamdouglass]

The advantage of painting over varnish is if you want to go back to original teak you won’t have imbedded paint deep into the fibres of the teak.

 

[Datenight]

I was going to suggest 120 to give a better surface for the paint to adhere to. If I am unsure about what's on existing surface I will use a prime coat after sanding.

That's what I would do. The 120# will give a good tooth and the paint will more than fill in any scratches left by the paper. Wash with TSP first if worried about contamination although a wipe with acetone or lacquer thinner will do the same.

Primer is a good idea.

Rob

 

[Bob Jack]

As a person who was in paint sales for over 40 years I have the following thoughts. First of all it is often difficult to get paint to adhere to varnish, some more than others. Urethane varnish has fewer available bonds available for inter coat adhesion and requires extra care. That said, if I really wanted to paint over varnish and did not want to sand all the old varnish off ( the best choice ) I would do the following. Sand with 120 grit, remove all dust by rinsing with clean water, use a tack cloth, prime with a high adhesive oil primer thinning each gallon with a beer bottle full of lacquer thinner - you know how to get hold of an empty beer bottle don’t you. Let the primer dry in the shade, sand then top coat. Lacquer thinner and painty rags can be quite flammable so take appropriate precautions .

 

[slowgoesit]

I realize it's on older thread, but we're in the process of getting rid of any brightwork on the exterior of our boat as well. Teak railings are not in all that good a repair and even I WANTED to varnish, they would look terrible. Stuff has been bolted to the railings, (bbq mounts, rod holders where I don't them, etc) so screw holes will be filled with thickened epoxy. There are also a couple of places where joints in the wood require repair, replacing fasteners, then filling/faring over damage.

I am looking at sanding smooth, and epoxying with tinted white epoxy. Is there any advantage/disadvantage of this over using, say, Brightsides, as Comodave did?
If anyone has any experience with epoxy for this, any recommendations on pretinted white? Or a tinting agent that you've found to be good?

 

[kchace]

Epoxy will not stand up to UV. It will start to yellow pretty quickly. After epoxy, follow up with a good single or 2 part paint.

Ken

 

[grahamdouglass]

For outside painting use a two part paint

I used Brightside for painting my top sides in 2014. Prior to painting I talked to the Interlux rep at the Boat show and he said to NOT use Brightside on horizontal surfaces because it will lift or bubble if it is continuously wet. So I used Brightside on vertical surfaces and Perfection on horizontal surfaces. I turned out pretty good, very shiny. I noticed that I had bubbling on the upper flybridge by the horizontal surface where the chartplotters, compass and instrument clusters are. The bubbling occured 6 years latter. I used Perfection on the brow of the flybridge that overhangs the front window and it is perfect after all these years. There are several paints on the market, do your homework and things should turn out well.

It might be an idea to epoxy first before painting. If you decide or subsequent owners decide to go back to wood they will be able to go back to bare wood and not wood that has been impregnated with white paint.

 

[garbler]

This is sure fire way to get real bummed out in a couple of years. Varnish is a very poor substrate for over coating with paint and trying to barrier coat with epoxy will just add to your upcoming disappointment. Here are the facts

Varnish always breakdowns in a series steps: clouding, crazing and finally peeling and cracking. This is the result of ultraviolet rays. Regardless of sanding prep it will only provide a temporary bonding profile and the sanding removes the hard gloss hide and therefore accelerates deterioration by removing more material.

Alkyd and polyurethane single part enamels and most marine grade non-catalytic/two part paints have little UV inhibitors so UV rays will penetrate down to the varnish underneath which will slow down degradation of the varnish but will not stop the process. You should also understand that most alkyd and polyurethane coating systems include vehicles or solvents and driers that will soften the underlying varnish hastening the breakdown process.

Applying a undercoat, surfaces or primer will provide a good secondary bonding surface for the topcoat but again will fail due to the above noted varnish break down.

Applying epoxy resin over varnish is a fools errand as the epoxy is very susceptible to UV degradation. You can read all the adds of using additives or specialized UV barrier overcoats but it’s just that, advertising. Don’t fall for the hype and sales pitches as epoxy will not hold up under UV attack. On vertical surfaces the life of epoxy is generally two to three times longer than horizontal applications due simply to direct light angles but the sun will be victorious. And understand epoxy and all these touted miracle UV inhibitors are expensive in not only materials but labor.

When varnish breaks down it’s fairly easy to remove with a simple heat gun and a sharp scraper or going after it with abrasives even chemical strippers though they much milder these days. When epoxy starts to chalk up and break down your looking at some very serious tedious aggressive work to remove. It’s tough stuff.

Bottom line is there is no free lunch and those who buy into a slick sales pitch or to-good-to- be-true solutions will not be happy down the road. I spent many years in this business and have the brain cell losses to prove it so remember the rule it’s 75% labor 25% materials. Please don’t completely trust paint salesmen as most have never painted much of anything. I was a field rep for one year with Sherwin Williams and ran paint shops at two yards.

Rick

 

[mvweebles]

I too wanted to rid myself of all wood and brightwork. Maybe not the right answer for SlowGoesIt, but I had my captails encapsulated with two layers of fiberglass, then faired and painted with Alexseal. Added about $1700 to the cost of paint job in Mexico.

Peter

 

[jgwinks]

I just painted the mahogany rails on my Concorde. They hadn't been touched in years, the varnish was mostly peeled off and cracks were forming in the grain. Some black staining too so I'd have to sand really deep to get a decent looking varnish job. You could see at the ends where the wood went into metal sockets that they'd been sanded too deep already, the shapes didn't line up. So I sanded off the remaining varnish and applied three coats of clear epoxy being careful to fill the cracks. Two coats of medium brown one part enamel over that. Good for the "ten foot look", from 10 feet away it looks like good varnish. That's about the only exterior wood on the boat so I think I'm home free in that arena.

 

[Mambo42]

I had exactly the same problem. If you take a look here (swipe right to see all three pictures)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CiXSQ5CLB1W/

you can see what our railings looked like. It took a hell of a lot of sanding to get 90 % of the varnish gone and then came the question what to do next ?
New varnish, paint, teak oil or something else.

A friend of mine, who is a carpenter, pointed me to Monocoat. Told me that is used a lot on wooden floors (so with heavy traffic on it), so I gave it a try. At the time I could not get the outdoor version (with UV protection), so on the pictures it is the indoor version, but by now I have received the outdoor version.
As you can see on the instagram post we put it on in September and since that time had a lot of salt air, rain etc, but it is still perfect. They advise to redo it after a few months to make sure you have covered every pores in the wood there is.
Am pretty sure it won't last as long as 12 layers of varnish, but the good part is that if I need to put a new layer of Monocoat I just need to sand it lightly and apply 1 coat of Monocoat (hence the name).

Some people say: 'isn't that what teak oil also does' but no that is not the case. Monocoat is a 2 component system. You get the oil and a hardener and the combination makes it last for a very long time. I am only 2 months in, but was told it will last at least one year, if not longer.

At the same time I just sanded the wood on the side of the boat, applied 15 layers of lacquer which means it should hold for quite a while, but if I ever have to sand that down...............i will be busy for days.

 

[Bmarler]

I used Brightside for painting my top sides in 2014. Prior to painting I talked to the Interlux rep at the Boat show and he said to NOT use Brightside on horizontal surfaces because it will lift or bubble if it is continuously wet. So I used Brightside on vertical surfaces and Perfection on horizontal surfaces. I turned out pretty good, very shiny. I noticed that I had bubbling on the upper flybridge by the horizontal surface where the chartplotters, compass and instrument clusters are. The bubbling occured 6 years latter. I used Perfection on the brow of the flybridge that overhangs the front window and it is perfect after all these years. There are several paints on the market, do your homework and things should turn out well.

It might be an idea to epoxy first before painting. If you decide or subsequent owners decide to go back to wood they will be able to go back to bare wood and not wood that has been impregnated with white paint.

My problem with using bright side and perfection (whites) together is color matching. Why they don’t have matching colors for both formulations is beyond me.

 

[PM]

All I know is what worked for me, on teak.

Wash with TSP, the real stuff, not the "as good as".

Rinse with vinegar in water.

Prime with adhesive primer compatible with the paint you will use. NO HOME DEPOT STUFF!

Two coats of enamel. I used Easypoxy.

pete