New York Canal System

[rslifkin]

Current estimates are early to mid August before that run is possible.

And of course, is there a next boat in the works?

 

[BandB]

There are four locks on which maintenance isn't scheduled for completion until August, three of them August 10. Note the word "scheduled."

 

[caltexflanc]

In the meantime they have no interest in using it here in Mystic

What a shame for them, as you know better than I there is a whole lot of gourmet cruising within a half day's cruise from there.

 

[jleonard]

Current estimates are early to mid August before that run is possible.

And of course, is there a next boat in the works?

No I am done with big boating. We will move to a travel trailer. Gotta see some stuff not accessible by boat.

I’ll miss all of you on this site.

 

[jleonard]

What a shame for them, as you know better than I there is a whole lot of gourmet cruising within a half day's cruise from there.

I agree but they have other stuff going on.

 

[Leonard Atkins]

NYS confirmed the entire canal system is open today.


Leonard

 

[BandB]

NYS confirmed the entire canal system is open today.


Leonard

Yes, we have a friend who verified it with them directly as well as he's flying to Detroit today to do a delivery from there to SC. Between the Welland and the NY system, this simple delivery became very complicated and just now is possible.

 

[rslifkin]

The last lock on the Oswego Canal opened this morning. I've already watched a few non-local boats come in this afternoon and Marinetraffic has shown quite a few entering and leaving the lake that way.

 

[Wayfarer]

I'm in Rome at the moment. Mr. and Mrs. Boatpoker are a couple of days ahead of me on a delivery, and they reported lots of debris in the channel. I can confirm that. LOTS of trees, chunks, logs, branches, construction debris, and between locks 18 and 19, a buttload of weeds.

Clogged my strainer up a couple of times. I had to take the coolant line off of the seacock and clean the hose out at one point. The whole damned hose was packed solid with twigs and weeds. It was a hot and shouty affair.

 

[Comodave]

When we came through the Erie bringing our boat home there was a lot of debris in it. It was early in the year. I guess that this is early in the year this year...

 

[boatpoker]

In Oswego right now after transiting from the Hudson. Having the mast on this GB46 stepped in the morning and we are off to deliver her to Port Credit.

The Erie was interesting

 

[friz]

....an accurate assessment that belies the contention from the great loop boating community that they are a significant contributor to the economies along the circuit. If the transient community wants to continue the lifestyle...pay for the maintenance of the canal system.

At the beginning of my life taxes/gov't built infrastructure to attract capital/investment/money. As NY has the lowest taxes to be found anywhere, it is understandable to have us "pay for play". The world turned upside down.

 

[backinblue]

Debris in the canals is normal at the beginning of the season for the canals, normally in spring.

 

[backinblue]

....an accurate assessment that belies the contention from the great loop boating community that they are a significant contributor to the economies along the circuit. If the transient community wants to continue the lifestyle...pay for the maintenance of the canal system.

There are only about 100 loopers per year. Insignificant contribution to the canals or surrounding businesses. Many more boaters than loopers use the system daily. Some businesses would absolutely disappear without the canals, but never enough revenue to pay for the canal system. This was discussed at length earlier in the thread.

 

[boathealer]

There are only about 100 loopers per year. Insignificant contribution to the canals or surrounding businesses. Many more boaters than loopers use the system daily. Some businesses would absolutely disappear without the canals, but never enough revenue to pay for the canal system. This was discussed at length earlier in the thread.

Not that it changes your economics argument...

 

[backinblue]

Any number in the 100-200 per year is pretty insignificant.

 

[BandB]

Any number in the 100-200 per year is pretty insignificant.

And the point is that loopers think they're a huge deal and they just aren't. Some even treat people along the way like they owe them something but fortunately most loopers are nice people and good customers, just the group isn't as significant as it thinks it is. Some businesses are helped by them, like Green Turtle Bay, because they all end up there, tired, and generally low on fuel. I've just heard other loopers talk about how much they do for the merchants along the canal and I doubt any specific merchant even sees more than 30 or 40 in a year.

It's something we all have to remind ourselves. Loopers are a minute part of TF and TF is a miniscule part of the boating community.

That said, there are many more loopers than on the chart. The majority of us are not members and don't get gold awards, just do it for fun. So I figure double those numbers perhaps.

 

[Frosty]

I agree with Back in Blue, but, as a side note: I wonder how many loopers aren't counted in that AGLCA chart. Some people must loop without "joining the association"?

 

[boathealer]

I agree with Back in Blue, but, as a side note: I wonder how many loopers aren't counted in that AGLCA chart. Some people must loop without "joining the association"?

Those are ones who are AGLCA members, registered with AGLCA that they started, and registered with AGLCA that they completed the loop.

It does not include those who completed the loop without AGLCA.

It does not include those who partially completed the loop, both AGLCA members or not.

I agree with BandB, although with a lot less angst and broad brush strokes, that there are many more boats out and about "doing" the loop than is indicated in the chart.

 

[Frosty]

Boathealer,

I did already understand that, but obviously could have phrased my question better. (Thanks for explaining anyway.)

What I really meant was "I know that some portion of loopers are not counted in that chart because they never joined AGLCA; yet oftentimes those numbers are presented as the definitive total of annual loopers (as if everyone joined)."

For example, I just read a looper blog last night, where they said "Fewer people loop each year than climb *Mount Everest!" and they used the AGLCA figure to represent the total number of annual loopers.

Not that it's a big deal, but I guess not being a "joiner" myself, for the most part, I bristle (only very slightly - soft bristles ) when that is taken as the definitive total. Again, no huge big thing, but since it showed up in the thread I mused about it.

*Apparently about 800 people climb Mount Everest annually, so since there are probably not ~600 "other" loopers it probably still stands, but was just an example of the AGLCA total being presented as the "true" total.

 

[boathealer]

Boathealer,

I did already understand that, but obviously could have phrased my question better. (Thanks for explaining anyway.)

What I really meant was "I know that some portion of loopers are not counted in that chart because they never joined AGLCA; yet oftentimes those numbers are presented as the definitive total of annual loopers (as if everyone joined)."

For example, I just read a looper blog last night, where they said "Fewer people loop each year than climb *Mount Everest!" and they used the AGLCA figure to represent the total number of annual loopers.

Not that it's a big deal, but I guess not being a "joiner" myself, for the most part, I bristle (only very slightly - soft bristles ) when that is taken as the definitive total. Again, no huge big thing, but since it showed up in the thread I mused about it.

*Apparently about 800 people climb Mount Everest annually, so since there are probably not ~600 "other" loopers it probably still stands, but was just an example of the AGLCA total being presented as the "true" total.

Got it.

 

[Frosty]

Okay, guessing by the eye-rolling emoticon that you think I'm just being a nut. That's okay, and you probably won't want to read the rest of my post. But for anyone else who might be interested, the reason I even think about this at all, is that I have seen numerous instances where those "looper numbers" are used in the communities we pass through. Say with merchants to show the impact loopers can have. Or to justify keeping a dock open. Or other similar reasons.

Now you and I, as boaters, know that AGLCA is a company who have packaged the great loop experience into an AGLCA thing (nothing wrong with that at all). So we look at that "150" per year and know that it only represents those who joined. And that it might really be 300 (to pull a number out of a hat). We know how it works from a boater's perspective.

But, I could easily see a shoreside merchant, a town committee thinking about a dock/improvements, etc. just taking that number as the "true" total without really thinking about it. (As the numbers were mentioned upthread to show how many loopers use the NY canals each year.)

Anyway, that's where I was coming from. Sorry if I'm eye-roll inducing

 

[Bacchus]

I even doubt that 100 for 2020 came through the NY canals as they didn't even open for through passage until mid Aug.
NYS admitted several years back that the boater fees collected did not even cover the cost of printing and distributing decals. The biggest $ collected for the canals is annual leases of property along the canals... businesses that front on the canal and have to lease that right of way / use. I have never seen that amount published.
Also especially recently NYS has made many improvements along the canal for non boater use that is also free... hiking paths, biking paths and they pave them and install fencing on the land side... go figure.,, they don't want anyone falling on the ground but waterside is open????

 

[boathealer]

Okay, guessing by the eye-rolling emoticon that you think I'm just being a nut. That's okay, and you probably won't want to read the rest of my post. But for anyone else who might be interested, the reason I even think about this at all, is that I have seen numerous instances where those "looper numbers" are used in the communities we pass through. Say with merchants to show the impact loopers can have. Or to justify keeping a dock open. Or other similar reasons.

Now you and I, as boaters, know that AGLCA is a company who have packaged the great loop experience into an AGLCA thing (nothing wrong with that at all). So we look at that "150" per year and know that it only represents those who joined. And that it might really be 300 (to pull a number out of a hat). We know how it works from a boater's perspective.

But, I could easily see a shoreside merchant, a town committee thinking about a dock/improvements, etc. just taking that number as the "true" total without really thinking about it. (As the numbers were mentioned upthread to show how many loopers use the NY canals each year.)

Anyway, that's where I was coming from. Sorry if I'm eye-roll inducing

That's certainly not what I meant, Mr. F. ----- Not the eye-roll emoticon, its the apologetic-angel. I got it. Sorry.

 

[Jeff F]

I'd expect that seasonal and other through traffic dwarfs the Looper population. Apart from the St Lawrence the only water routes in/out of the Great Lakes go through NYS or Chicago. I came north on the Erie Canal in September a couple of years ago and met lots of downbound travelers.

 

[rslifkin]

I even doubt that 100 for 2020 came through the NY canals as they didn't even open for through passage until mid Aug.
NYS admitted several years back that the boater fees collected did not even cover the cost of printing and distributing decals. The biggest $ collected for the canals is annual leases of property along the canals... businesses that front on the canal and have to lease that right of way / use. I have never seen that amount published.
Also especially recently NYS has made many improvements along the canal for non boater use that is also free... hiking paths, biking paths and they pave them and install fencing on the land side... go figure.,, they don't want anyone falling on the ground but waterside is open????

We wandered down the Oswego and Erie Canals as far as Brewerton just before Labor Day last year. There was definitely a good bit of traffic and quite a few AGLCA burgees were seen. I'm sure there were less boats running through than normal, but it seems like plenty had been waiting and went for it as soon as they could.

 

[Frosty]

That's certainly not what I meant, Mr. F. ----- Not the eye-roll emoticon, its the apologetic-angel. I got it. Sorry.

Thanks BH. I appreciate your saying that.

 

[backinblue]

I still say that loopers are a miniscule amount of the traffic through the canal systems. Let's day the real number is double what's reported and the season in any area is 6 mos. That means that any point in the loop sees 2 loopers per day on average. Loopers claim to get by on a budget of $100/day (not sure how). So on any given day, what are the chances that any loopers visit a specific business and they see any of that $100? That's why I say that the spend by the loopers is insignificant to the system. When I was in the NY canals and stopped at a marina for a night, there were mostly local boaters, a handful of transients, and a lot of local non-boaters visiting the marina restaurant that was doing a brisk business. This business would not survive w/o the canals, but if the loopers disappeared completely, they wouldn't notice. Not trying to put down the loopers, I admire them in fact. Just that they are not impactful to the local economies they visit or pass through.

 

[catalinajack]

BandB, I did the Loop two years ago. I agree that Loopers are not high-impact on any local economy as a group. So what. Loopers do not think that they are special. And, no, I have, in my many conversations with Loopers, ever heard any say, or even suggested, that they (we) are special in any way. You say some expect special treatment. How have you determined this? A single observation or two of your own? Rumor? I suspect there are non-Loopers who are just as demanding and there are probably a lot more of them.

Now, most Loopers are indeed very proud of what they believe to be a big accomplishment. Think about it for a moment in the context of your being a very experienced boater. Most Loopers are relatively new to boating. Many are brand new and the Loop is their first experience at long-distance cruising. So, yes, indeed it is an accomplishment. I think you misinterpret Loopers who express their pride in completing a Loop as bragging or being special. That is simply not true. Am I proud? Not really. Doing the Loop was fun and I would like to do it again but my spouse prefers to cruise other waters in the future.

By the way, we do not fly the gold Looper burgee indicating that we have completed a Loop nor have we reported to the AGLCA that we have completed a Loop. Your assumptions are broad and misplaced.

And the point is that loopers think they're a huge deal and they just aren't. Some even treat people along the way like they owe them something but fortunately most loopers are nice people and good customers, just the group isn't as significant as it thinks it is. Some businesses are helped by them, like Green Turtle Bay, because they all end up there, tired, and generally low on fuel. I've just heard other loopers talk about how much they do for the merchants along the canal and I doubt any specific merchant even sees more than 30 or 40 in a year.

It's something we all have to remind ourselves. Loopers are a minute part of TF and TF is a miniscule part of the boating community.

That said, there are many more loopers than on the chart. The majority of us are not members and don't get gold awards, just do it for fun. So I figure double those numbers perhaps.

 

[BandB]

BandB, I did the Loop two years ago. I agree that Loopers are not high-impact on any local economy as a group. So what. Loopers do not think that they are special. And, no, I have, in my many conversations with Loopers, ever heard any say, or even suggested, that they (we) are special in any way. You say some expect special treatment. How have you determined this? A single observation or two of your own? Rumor? I suspect there are non-Loopers who are just as demanding and there are probably a lot more of them.

Now, most Loopers are indeed very proud of what they believe to be a big accomplishment. Think about it for a moment in the context of your being a very experienced boater. Most Loopers are relatively new to boating. Many are brand new and the Loop is their first experience at long-distance cruising. So, yes, indeed it is an accomplishment. I think you misinterpret Loopers who express their pride in completing a Loop as bragging or being special. That is simply not true. Am I proud? Not really. Doing the Loop was fun and I would like to do it again but my spouse prefers to cruise other waters in the future.

By the way, we do not fly the gold Looper burgee indicating that we have completed a Loop nor have we reported to the AGLCA that we have completed a Loop. Your assumptions are broad and misplaced.

I should have narrowed my statement but I do stand behind the "Some" comments.

I have heard two loopers talk about how the economy of the towns along the canal will be destroyed if looping is restricted. I heard the talk even with the Illinois River locks being shut and I've heard it when discussing the electric fencing and controlling species. The problem is when they use the false premises to argue over funding for the canals, instead of other arguments. I've only heard two or three loopers make these claims and know of hundreds who would never do so.

I also witnessed a disagreement at a small local Erie Canal Ice cream shopped. The looper, a woman, insisted there should be a loop discount. The owner said there wasn't one. The woman then said, "You treat us like we don't matter and you'd never survive without loopers." She was then asked to leave and was refused service and left screaming and cursing. The store owner just said "what is it with loopers?" I have no idea what previous encounters she'd had. I know we didn't dare mention we were in the process of looping as we wanted our ice cream too much.

My point is not to put down loopers as we are also loopers. However, it is simply to say that economic arguments are not in our favor. I will continue to beg and plead for the Erie Canal to remain open annually and be usable for looping because I do understand that the finances are very negative and like much of national treasures and art and culture can never be financially justified as you can't put dollars and cents on contribution to our lifestyles.