Mobius XPM for sale

[KnotYet]

Fuel wise, the Gardners are quite efficient. The better modern stuff is pretty comparable at this point though.

Quite correct. The efficiency of today's 14L Cummins is stated to be .331 lb/bhp
which is essentially identical to the Gardner 8XLB stated .339 lb/bhp. Of course,
the 14L Cummins can make almost 2.5 times the horsepower at 1500 rpm each.

If the more realistic modern QSB 6.7 Cummins 250hp was substituted for the 14L,
the efficiency at 2200 rpm/181hp is stated as .359 lb/bhp, again almost the same.
The efficiency of all 3 examples tends to decline as power demand and RPM go down.

 

[sunchaser]

Anybody know what the NOx emissions are on the Gardner vs 2020 engines sold in EU/NA? Does anybody care beyond me?]

This question applies to probably 76% or more of us on TF owning old mechanical engines, the preferred ones of course.

 

[Whodgins]

Yes, that's how it's done now, and is totally viable if operating as a foreign flagged vessel suits you plans. In the US that means an annual cruising permit, reporting all your movements (some exceptions in some places), and leaving the country annually to renew the cruising permit. If you are in the PNW, that might be trivial with Canada so close. It's also pretty easy for people in the US Southeast who just go to the Bahamas for a couple of weeks. But from other locations it might not be so easy. It just needs to all be considered.

Lots of good questions here and I can answer some of these here. Möbius is registered/flagged in Jersey which is part of the Red Ensign Group REG that includes the United Kingdom, Isle of Man, Guernsey, Anguilla, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, St Helena and the Turks & Caicos Islands.

Early in the build we had registered the boat in Canada (my home country) but changed to Jersey when insurance became difficult and expensive for boats flagged in Canada or the USA. Also interesting to note that at the time (2019) of registration in Jersey they were still part of the EU.

I don't claim to have any expert knowledge on the various rules on compliant engines in different countries, but in our case the Gardner engine was fully documented in all the registration applications and listed in the final registration documents we received from both Canada and Jersey. The engine was in place when the Bureau Veritas inspectors were aboard to complete the registration inspection and no concerns or questions were raised then or afterwards.

As you noted Peter, now that we are here in the USA we checked in using the very automated CBP Roam app and purchased the annual cruising permit which was also very inexpensive and easy to get. I am a Canadian citizen and Christine is American and since leaving Turkey at the end of October, we have checked in/out of about 14 countries in the EU, North Africa, Caribbean, Puerto Rico, Bahamas and US and our experience with each of those has been very good and trouble free. So for us, cruising the world in a "foreign flagged" boat has worked out very well but of course as they say "your mileage may vary"!

Unfortunately it looks like we have now done our last check in/out on Möbius so won't be able to add any more such nautical experiences but hope the ones we have had will shed some light on this process for others here on the TF that are considering cruising more of this awemazing world of ours by sea. We look forward to hearing about them as you do.

Our recent challenge has reminded us of the wisdom behind the recommendation to throw of the dock lines, go now, go far and go often and we add our strongest endorsement of this for all to consider.

Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

Interesting work around.


I agree that both things (stabilizers and engine) can be changed/retrofit. It's just a matter of $$.


Assuming the hull really is totally prepped for stabilizers, I would guess it's a $75k to $100k retrofit. I think the boat is all electric (thrusters, windless, etc), so some sort of electric stabilizers might be a good choice.


I don't recall what the power rating is for the Garner, so not sure what size engine would be a suitable replacement. The engine "package" (engine, gear, mounts, coolers) for my boat was $100k. That's for 13 liters and 400hp continuous duty. The cost was the same for Scania, Deere, or Cummins. That's probably a bigger engine than required since the XMP is so much lighter. I'd guess a 6-9 liter producing 250-300hp continuous duty would be fine, and less expensive for engine and gear. And perhaps the existing gear can be used.


Personally I'd budget $250k for both.

Thanks Peter et al.

We have had family, friends, kids and grandkids aboard Möbius almost non stop (lucky us!) since we arrived here in Norfolk area at the end of May after our crossing the Atlantic from Turkey at the end of October so I have not been keeping up very well with TF postings and most things online. But we are now back to having the boat to ourselves so I'll do my best to catch up to some of these good questions in this thread.

Regarding stabilization, Peter/TT and others are quite correct that Möbius was designed and built to have active stabilizers fitted but we decided to initially install passive paravanes and they have worked out very well for us. So the hull is fully prepared for the installation of active stabilizers with all the framing and webbing welded in place and watertight coffer dams built around them which should make the installation much faster and cheaper. Peter's estimate of $75-100k for either active fins or one of the Magnus effect cylinders style is in line with the most recent estimates I've received. If I were to be adding active stabilizers I would go with the Magnus effect style as they are most in keeping with the use case we had for Möbius and they also have the advantage Peter mentioned of being electric rather than hydraulic which would be a plus in my estimation as we otherwise have no hydraulic systems on the boat other than Kobelt/Accusteer sterring.

Re the engine specs, the Gardner 6LXB can be configured for anything from 127-180 HP and I currently have ours configured for 150HP @ 1600 RPM. All continuous 100% duty cycle of course. If the new owners wanted to swap out the Gardner for whatever reason, it would be a relatively straightforward engine only swap as the engine/gearbox flange connecting to our Nogva CPP is a standard SAE bolt pattern with 4 standard engine mounts bolted to the 25mm/1" engine beds. So no changes would be required for the Nogva gearbox and all the cooling, heat exchangers, exhaust, etc. are externally mounted and so the new engine would only require new hoses and some wiring I think. I am not up to date on new engine costs for Deere/Scania/Cummins etc. but my guess is that an engine only swap would cost about $40-60k.

Given the very unexpected situation we now find ourselves in our highest priority is to find the just right new owners for Möbius as quicly as possible so we can make our transition to land as quickly as possible and we will be pricing her accordingly. We are still working with brokers and others to come up with the just right asking price for Möbius which is no easy task, but we have already factored in the costs for installing both active stabilizers and a new engine in that price to give the new owners those options if wanted.

Möbius' hull has proven to be very efficient and so the 150HP that the Gardner puts out has been working well to give us average cruising speeds of 8-9 kts with very good fuel consumption that has been running around 1.9L/nm / 2.0 nm/USG when averaged out for the +8200nm we have put on so far. I am obviously very biased in favor of the Gardner engine being the Goldilocks engine for us and our use case but certainly agree with others here that a modern diesel engine from the likes of JD/Scania/Cummins etc. would work well too. If the new owners did want to swap out the engine then I think that anything from 200HP and up would work well do deliver the same or better cruising speeds and reasonably good fuel rates.

Hope this helps answer some of the questions here in this thread and I'll do my best to keep up with others as they come in.

Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

Think I agree with this post. Much wisdom. Believe spec’ing a boat depends on several factors
Intended use profile.
Skill set and physical ability of owner(s) and crew
Region of use
Available funds

Many of the above posts reflect the ownership and use experience of the posters. That is different for each one of us. Any boat is a comprise. None are prefect for doing everything. There’s a trade off between having a mechanical naturally aspirated engine and the current crop of common rail with one or more electronic modules, multiple heat exchangers and less tolerance to fuel quality. Same with single v twin, dry stack v wet exhaust. Same with active stabilization (fins, gyro, Magnus) v passive (fish). Unfortunately there’s no universal “right” choice. Even the “best” choice depends upon human factors than are defined by owner and crew.

Möbius as she stands without any further modifications is a great boat and the perfect boat for someone with a similar background and similar plans as the current owners. Possible new owners due to their experience, biases from that experience or future plans may choose to do modifications. But that in no way should detract from the thought and execution that went into this vessel.

Hope the current owners are able to recover as much of their investment in time, thought and money when she sells. Hope new owners use her to her capabilities. In the past I’ve refused to sell prior boats to certain prospective owners thinking they would not use her to her intended purpose or would missuse her. Most of us have an emotional attachment to our boats. I’m sure that’s the case here. I still miss my last boat greatly and think of her often. I have nothing but respect for the strength displayed here where an owner as been forced to meet a hard decision to sell as he is now unsafe to continue his dream.

Your observations are spot on and why we referred to this as "Project Goldilocks" from the beginning and this "just right, just for us" approach has proven to be very apropos throughout the whole design/build process and living aboard and cruising ever since.

We also share your same hopes that we can quickly find the just right new owners that will pick up where we are leaving off and continue to cruise the world's oceans just as she was designed and built to do. It was a difficult decision for us to make initially but as is so often the case in life in the end it was pretty clear and "easy" what the best decision was and we just needed to work our way up to accepting it and moving on to our next adventures.

Wayne

 

[Whodgins]

Sad to see a dream end or get derailed. Wayne and I corresponded some early on when we first purchased Muirgen. Mobius has a 6 cyl Gardner, and Muirgen has the 8LXB. It's been chugging along for 42 years since installed new when our boat was built. The 6LXB would have served just fine in our boat.

An early concern we had was availability of parts. I spoke several times with Mike at Gardner in the UK. He asked me for a list of parts that I was potentially concerned about. I came up with a list including injectors, rings, valves, gaskets, etc. He had everything available for immediate shipment. Plus he stated that for many parts they should be locally available in the US, or British Columbia.

The boat came with a lot of spares such as injectors, filters, etc when we purchased her. All the filters are readily available, either through Gardner, or aftermarket. From my understanding about the only parts that are not made any longer are crankshafts, and the block.

Since we are a single engine boat, we wanted a spare starter for the Gardner. We recently purchased one through Barry at DFI Automotive in Lancashire, UK for $771.00 usd including shipping, duty, and core charge (since it was a spare I wasn't returning a core). He was a pleasure to work with. The starter arrived from England in 12 days, perfectly packaged.

As many know, marine applications are not the only use for Gardners. They are commonly used in lorries, prime power generators, pumps, etc. Parts, except for marine specific parts are readily available from non-marine sources. The original starter is still going strong, and Mike at Gardner's response to me when I inquired about purchasing a spare was, "It's only 42 years old, why would you think you need a new starter?"

In some respects, our boat really didn't need the 8LXB. On our trip to Alaska last year, cruising 3,100 nm at 7.5 to 8 kts in a 90,000 lb boat, fully loaded (at the start of the trip). Including running the hydraulic pump to run the 12kw generator we used a little less than 3 gph over that 3,100 nm. We didn't refuel on the trip, and still had over 400 gallon left when we got back. Try THAT with a "modern" engine!

As Peter mentioned earlier we are leaving the PNW the end of August enroute to Sea of Cortez, and then eventually crossing over to the East Coast of the US. From there, who knows? We're retired! The Gardner, and and drive train in our boat is way down the list of concerns for the trip. I'm more concerned as to whether we have enough kitty litter on board!:lol:

Question for those more knowledgeable than I:
Would the United States import restrictions still apply for a boat that is now "used" and which would be under new ownership as long as the boat was in compliance in the host nation (Turkey) when it was built?

I remember our past discussions about Gardner engines in our boats very well and they were most helpful.

Our experiences with these engines and with parts and such match yours exactly. I can't say enough good things about Mike/Michael at Gardner Diesel in England. I've gotten to know him and spend some time with him and his crew and they have always provided exemplary service way above and beyond any other providers I've worked with.

Same as with you, getting parts has also been very easy, affordable and fast and I carry a pretty complete inventory aboard Möbius such that I or any other mechanic could repair almost any problem that however unlikely might arise.

I don't have any direct experience as I do all my own work and servicing so far but I can't imagine that it would be difficult to find a mechanic who would find it very easy to work on these engines with no prior Gardner experience. They are about as simple as a diesel engine can get and after understanding that, working on them is equally as simple and pleasurable.

I carry a full set of original Gardner service manuals, parts books, etc. and back in those days the documentation was phenomenally detailed with truly exquisite illustrations and drawings that make it very clear and easy to understand how everything works, techniques, tools, etc.

I've been told that there are about 100k LXB's still in service in the world but i wouldn't expect that you would find a mechanic who specializes in Gardner engines in many parts but I don't think this is a problem. Just find a competent diesel engine mechanic and provide them with the parts and manuals to do any servicing or repairs that might be needed from time to time.

Hope you stocked up adequately on kitty liter and that your trip out of the PNW goes well.

Wayne

 

[dannc]

Soooo sorry to hear that Mobius is to be sold. I was worried when Wayne said he hurt his previously injured back.

Mobius visited our state recently while we were overseas vacationing and looking at some boats under construction. Was sorry to have missed Mobius going by, so to speak.

Regarding emissions, the Gardner engine is not US Tier III compliant so the boat cannot be imported into the US since the boat was built after 2004-2007. The exact date depends on engine size and use.

Again, sorry to hear about the health issues.

Later,
Dan

 

[Simi 60]

Bummer that health has got in the way <shakes fists at the sky - damn you failing bodies>

I've been told that there are about 100k LXB's still in service in the world

Had drinks yesterday on a lovely 70ft vessel powered by two Gardner 6lxct (turbo)
Nice, but would like to think she'd do better with 8lxb

Blurb on her says @ 8 knots and 1400 rpm she's a 33 litre per hour drunkard.

.
Assuming the hull really is totally prepped for stabilizers, I would guess it's a $75k to $100k retrofit.

Was having this exact discussion with the owners of above vessel.
They have Naids, but had to get h arms and flopper stoppers for at anchor.

We have heavier built h arms and flopper stoppers for at anchor, but I am boosting up attachment points and got a set of Aluminium paravane fish for small money so will start testing underway and in light beam slop soon.

If I need to upgrade arms it'll still work out around to about $5k vs $75k to $100k

 

[klee wyck]

Thanks Peter et al.



Regarding stabilization, Peter/TT and others are quite correct that Möbius was designed and built to have active stabilizers fitted but we decided to initially install passive paravanes and they have worked out very well for us. So the hull is fully prepared for the installation of active stabilizers with all the framing and webbing welded in place and watertight coffer dams built around them which should make the installation much faster and cheaper. Peter's estimate of $75-100k for either active fins or one of the Magnus effect cylinders style is in line with the most recent estimates I've received. If I were to be adding active stabilizers I would go with the Magnus effect style as they are most in keeping with the use case we had for Möbius and they also have the advantage Peter mentioned of being electric rather than hydraulic which would be a plus in my estimation as we otherwise have no hydraulic systems on the boat other than Kobelt/Accusteer sterring.



Wayne

Very sorry to hear that you have hit this inevitable decision point now, but I admire your attitude and the way you are facing it. I can imagine that this build was an epic journey in and of itself, so you are well travelled with this fine vessel in many ways already.
I am the current custodian of JP and Marie's DOMINO and see many similarities in the way they and you approached the conception and build of truly unique and uniquely capable ships.

I agree with your assessment above that for MOBIUS, in terms of her hull form and her sources of power for stabilization, the Magnus rotors would be a very nice fit. If the foundation is already there, 70 or less is likely to cover that.
Good luck to you both on the next leg,

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks Peter et al.

We have had family, friends, kids and grandkids aboard Möbius almost non stop (lucky us!) since we arrived here in Norfolk area at the end of May after our crossing the Atlantic from Turkey at the end of October so I have not been keeping up very well with TF postings and most things online. But we are now back to having the boat to ourselves so I'll do my best to catch up to some of these good questions in this thread.

Regarding stabilization, Peter/TT and others are quite correct that Möbius was designed and built to have active stabilizers fitted but we decided to initially install passive paravanes and they have worked out very well for us. So the hull is fully prepared for the installation of active stabilizers with all the framing and webbing welded in place and watertight coffer dams built around them which should make the installation much faster and cheaper. Peter's estimate of $75-100k for either active fins or one of the Magnus effect cylinders style is in line with the most recent estimates I've received. If I were to be adding active stabilizers I would go with the Magnus effect style as they are most in keeping with the use case we had for Möbius and they also have the advantage Peter mentioned of being electric rather than hydraulic which would be a plus in my estimation as we otherwise have no hydraulic systems on the boat other than Kobelt/Accusteer sterring.

Re the engine specs, the Gardner 6LXB can be configured for anything from 127-180 HP and I currently have ours configured for 150HP @ 1600 RPM. All continuous 100% duty cycle of course. If the new owners wanted to swap out the Gardner for whatever reason, it would be a relatively straightforward engine only swap as the engine/gearbox flange connecting to our Nogva CPP is a standard SAE bolt pattern with 4 standard engine mounts bolted to the 25mm/1" engine beds. So no changes would be required for the Nogva gearbox and all the cooling, heat exchangers, exhaust, etc. are externally mounted and so the new engine would only require new hoses and some wiring I think. I am not up to date on new engine costs for Deere/Scania/Cummins etc. but my guess is that an engine only swap would cost about $40-60k.

Given the very unexpected situation we now find ourselves in our highest priority is to find the just right new owners for Möbius as quicly as possible so we can make our transition to land as quickly as possible and we will be pricing her accordingly. We are still working with brokers and others to come up with the just right asking price for Möbius which is no easy task, but we have already factored in the costs for installing both active stabilizers and a new engine in that price to give the new owners those options if wanted.

Möbius' hull has proven to be very efficient and so the 150HP that the Gardner puts out has been working well to give us average cruising speeds of 8-9 kts with very good fuel consumption that has been running around 1.9L/nm / 2.0 nm/USG when averaged out for the +8200nm we have put on so far. I am obviously very biased in favor of the Gardner engine being the Goldilocks engine for us and our use case but certainly agree with others here that a modern diesel engine from the likes of JD/Scania/Cummins etc. would work well too. If the new owners did want to swap out the engine then I think that anything from 200HP and up would work well do deliver the same or better cruising speeds and reasonably good fuel rates.

Hope this helps answer some of the questions here in this thread and I'll do my best to keep up with others as they come in.

Wayne

Thanks Wayne.


First, really sorry to hear that circumstances have forced you in this direction. We all know the day will come, but we also all assume that it will be later, not now.


If I were buying Mobius, I would add stabilizers because at the end of the day I'm a big baby and like them. As for the engine, I would only change it if necessary as part of flag-state selection. Like I said in the beginning, I have nothing against the Gardner, per se. Just noting that it might restrict flag-state selection in an undesirable way for some people. You are not alone flagging in a Red Ensign state and operating in the US on a cruising permit, so it's a well worn path for those who want to travel it.

 

[Mako]

"we are here in the USA we checked in using the very automated CBP Roam app and purchased the annual cruising permit which was also very inexpensive and easy to get. I am a Canadian citizen and Christine is America"

So just to confirm, since your FF vessel is here under a cruising permit with no intention to import, the fact that the owner (Christine) is a citizen still does not subject you to any duties?

 

[klee wyck]

I recently ran across a listing for XPM 78-01, though curiously, it is not on Judy's, website and I think she may hold the central listing?
At any rate, if this listing is legit, it seems like an extremely good value for someone capable of managing this level of complexity. I have the slip, and perhaps could stretch the budget for this, but not a chance I could manage the complexity of it.
I would think someone here could feast on this beast of an explorer. Perhaps she is already sold?

 

[dannc]

I recently ran across a listing for XPM 78-01, though curiously, it is not on Judy's, website and I think she may hold the central listing?
At any rate, if this listing is legit, it seems like an extremely good value for someone capable of managing this level of complexity. I have the slip, and perhaps could stretch the budget for this, but not a chance I could manage the complexity of it.
I would think someone here could feast on this beast of an explorer. Perhaps she is already sold?

The link I received is, https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2021-naval-yachts-xpm-9029355/, which should be good since I got it from Artnautica.

It is a good price that is for sure.

Later,
Dan

 

[bowball]

I recently ran across a listing for XPM 78-01, though curiously, it is not on Judy's, website and I think she may hold the central listing?
At any rate, if this listing is legit, it seems like an extremely good value for someone capable of managing this level of complexity. I have the slip, and perhaps could stretch the budget for this, but not a chance I could manage the complexity of it.
I would think someone here could feast on this beast of an explorer. Perhaps she is already sold?

I agree regarding the complexity. Tempting for sure except for that fear- but is it that much more complex? I’m sad they won’t continue their journey.
Maybe a solution is to hire a full time crew member to manage the boat.

 

[Mako]

The price seems like a steal for a brand new boat, which was obviously priced out before Covid hit.

Prices in Turkey are now up over 150% from just a few years ago, and that country no longer offers much of a competitive advantage over building in Europe.

 

[lwarden]

Like many on here I followed the build with great interest. So sorry to hear you are needing to sell it Wayne, I think that decision would kill me personally. Being an engineer myself, this boat, it's layout and systems (and Gardner engine) are a like something I could only dream about. I don't remember seeing detailed pictures of the interior, but the design and woodworking is stunning. All I can say to you Wayne and Christine is bravo and a job well done!

 

[tiltrider1]

Looks like a deal to me. I am not an ocean crosser. I also spend most my time in the USA. This would make it the wrong boat for me.

 

[ktdtx]

I would call that a screaming deal!

 

[Simi 60]

I agree regarding the complexity. Tempting for sure except for that fear- but is it that much more complex? I’m sad they won’t continue their journey.
Maybe a solution is to hire a full time crew member to manage the boat.

What complexity?

Old skool Gardner
Paravane stabilisers
Raw aluminium finish

Sounds almost simplistic to me
And that's a good thing in my eyes.

 

[Fletcher500]

Wayne, you are a badass. I have been following along on your build over the years and was always so impressed with your engineering and technical skills, patience to make things work properly, and zest for life.

That is a fantastic price for the right owner.

Best to you and Christine.

 

[sunchaser]

What complexity?

Old skool Gardner
Paravane stabilisers
Raw aluminium finish

Sounds almost simplistic to me
And that's a good thing in my eyes.

Right you are Simi. But complex to one is simple to another.

 

[socalrider]

Right you are Simi. But complex to one is simple to another.

I agree with Simi. Maybe a few things like the heated floors, but for the most part it seems on par with or below the complexity of vessels with similar capabilities. Amazing vessel for sure, and a crazy price (not that I can afford it!)

 

[cfr]

any news about Moebius available ? esp registration of the vessel and has it been sold or hopefully wayne is able to use his dream boat ?

 

[Adopo]

any news about Moebius available ? esp registration of the vessel and has it been sold or hopefully wayne is able to use his dream boat ?

Yes, aksing was 1,200,000 sold 950 after being on market for 33 days. Looked like a great buy, and to think you would never ever have to varnish, or polish it eva!!! And it had the legendary Gardner engine....

 

[Snapdragon III]

Wow! That is shockingly cheap. Used FPB 64's are going for close to 2 million. I am jealous of whoever bought it.