Looking for a boat

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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I guess there's really no sure-fire obvious route. We might get lucky and find a boat ourselves (I like the idea of reaching out to specific manufacturer forums where we might Induce a sale from someone who had been otherwise just considering selling)
But on the other hand a broker might know of someone in that position, or a boat not yet on the market yada yada..
We'll just have to move through the process but I think finding a good buyer's agent is a decent first step as well as continually searching ourselves
Cheers All
TBW
 
I personally have no experience with brokers, either buy or seller brokers. But I guess I have just been lucky.

Since it is early in your search how about letting us help? Tell us what you like, what you need and let us suggest a few makes and models. You can narrow it down from there.

pete
 
Pete, well I'm trying to be somewhat open minded but I'll try to narrow it down here.

1: We have a 65 lb dog so either a cockpit with transom door or sundeck with steps (Not ladder) down to a decent swim deck/platform.
2: Want 2 helms and prefer RPH.
3: Need a hardtop over either cockpit or SD to store tender. would MAYBE consider Hydraulic swim platform for tender. prefer no davits
4: Would prefer 2 decent double cabins.
5: Good ventilation throughout.
6: Steps up to fly somewhere, no ladder only access.
There are many other considerations but that's a good start

Boats that meet all or many of these requirements:
OA 486/510 Classico RPH
Offshore 48/50 RPH
Jefferson 52 SE RPH/50 Rivanna SE (With lower helm)
McKenna/Vitesse 48 RPH
Cruisers 5000 Sport sedan
Carver 530 MY
Symbol 50 PH
Smaller:
OA 430/460 Classico RPH (With fly)
OA 45 Classico sedan
Carver 450 MY
Symbol 45 RPH

Favorite, OA 486/510 Classico RPH

There are probably many other boats out there but that's our short.ish list
Not afraid of a smaller boat with the right layout but would probably steer away from bunk second cabin in Liu of AC on smaller boat.

Would love any similar suggestions!!

Cheers Pete, TBW
 
IMHO, not much.

Firstly, when you approach a broker, they are going to try and show you the boats they have listed. Don't kid yourself, their fiduciary responsibility at this point is to the seller, not the buyer.

Once they can't find a boat in their listings, then they slide the 'buyer's broker' contract over to you and hit Yachtworld. This entitles them to split the commission 50/50 with the listing broker.

The commission comes off of the sellers end, so insinuating that the buyer is paying is silly. The buyer wouldn't get a 10% discount for a private sale. That golden ring shines in the eye of the seller.

You can find the same boat on yachtworld and approach the listing broker. There is no magic, hidden MLS listing for boats that only brokers have access too.

FWIW, I completely agree. Your comments reflect my experiences.

I'd guess the potential value of a 'buyer's broker' will depend completely on the individual. During my extensive, protracted, and many searches for used boats, I would have loved to have benefitted from a buyer's broker.

Many, many brokers approached me, offering to act as a 'buyer's broker.' I tried working with several over the years. My experiences were as you described. I would get dumps of listings from yachtworld (that I already knew about), I assumed so that the broker could claim they introduced those boats to me and thus qualify for a share of the commission.

Some claimed they had access to boats before they were listed on yachtworld. I never saw that. Occasionally someone would send me a listing just as it was appearing on yachtworld. But I saw no evidence of a 'secret world' of boats for sale that didn't also hit yachtworld. It's in a seller's interests to reach as wide of an audience of buyers as possible, to maximize the selling price. It would seem most sellers would have little incentive to do a private side deal.

Most of the 'buyer's brokers' tried to talk me into buying boats. Which is understandable, since they only get paid upon a sale. But it wasn't helpful to me. Exceptions to that behavior were rare. One broker I dealt with was above board and principled, and didn't try to talk me into anything (probably because he knew in the recent hot sellers market, another buyer would come along in 5 minutes if I didn't buy). One other broker was the only one I dealt with who actually talked me out of buying some boats, candidly telling me they weren't worth the price and had too many issues. I have great respect for him. Even though he didn't bring me any unique listings, I sensed he would have been helpful in actual negotiations, and I would seek him out to work with in future dealings.

The point made by Shrew is an important one to remember. The broker's fee comes from the seller, and if the broker owes anyone agent-like fiduciary duties, it is the seller. Before you take the 'buyer's agent' into your confidence in the course of a negotiation, you might want to consider that.
You might get lucky. The broker you choose might be aware of a likely boat that is not public knowledge (although, like Steve K, I rather doubt that). They may genuinely want to steer you away from problem boats- although that was not my experience. I made an offer on a boat from 'my' broker's branch agency, and walked away after survey. I ate those costs, and did a private deal for a different boat. The purchase price reflected the lack of commission and my legal fees were a small fraction of half the usual commission.

It's true that while the fee to any broker is technically paid by the seller, as others have pointed out, the money actually comes from the buyer. As others have said, the only source of money in any boat sale comes from the buyer. The seller might be the one disbursing the funds, but the money comes from the buyer's wallet.

FWIW, I had thought that working on my own, without a buyer's broker, might provide some flexibility on price. After all, if a selling broker doesn't have to share the commission with someone, it stands to reason they should be more flexible and willing to partially reduce their own commission to help make a deal happen. That would be a win all around - a deal happens so the seller gets their boat sold, the buyer pays a bit lower price, and the selling broker ends up with a higher commission than if they had to split it 50/50.

I've experienced that in the past, but was surprised that over the past three years, no selling broker I encountered was willing to reduce their commission at all. It seemed to be they both saw it as an extra bonus, to keep the full commission for themselves, as well as probably knowing that in a hot seller's market, someone else would come along willing to pay the full freight.
 
Nick, In the end, I agree with pretty much all you said.
My experience with realtors over the last 40 years leads me to similar conclusions. I've met maybe one or two that I feel we could trust and that were totally on our side and frankly it's understandable as you say they make money by selling. There is a big difference though in someone trying to stick you in something that you shouldn't buy and one squeezing you in a direction. I also believe in my heart that few will have "Pocket" listings that suit our needs.
I don't see any harm in reaching out to a broker but not tying us down to that individual and keeping the search on our own as well.
I can't imagine a broker out there that would reach out to forums or turn over other layers to find us a boat other than the normal channels.
TBW
 
I think a lot depends on what type of boat is sought. Quite a few brands have devoted followings and a few brokers who have come to know the vessels within an OEM fleet well. TF contributor Judy W has soecialized in steel trawlers for 25 years and often knows an older boat and the ownership history well.

A listing broker may only have one boat, buy a knowledgeable buyers broker will have much wider perspective- and also be inclined to reach out to current owners who have inquired about possible sale. They also know the history and condition of the boats on or near the market which helps in formulating an offer. That's all valuable information unavailable on yachtworld, and could save a buyer a lot of travel time and money.

I'm pretty skeptical of the term "Buyers Broker" because it carries a connotation that they are the buyers fiduciary. They are not, but can be an invaluable resource if used with openness and respect (and assuming they have earned that right)

Peter
 
Peter, I that's all useful advice the struggle I see is finding that "Buyers" agent.
Lets say for instance my all time number one boat is the OA 486/510 Classico RPH. How do I go about finding the agent that specializes. They are probably out there.. Also we are looking on the east coast/loop which I would think means we need someone at least on the east rather than Pacific coast. I realize they/we all see pretty much the same stuff out there, but id this agent might know someone that MAY sell I'd assume they'd be in the general area..
 
With possible exception of Zimmerman Marine' purchase program, I don't think a "Buyers Broker" exists. There are brokers that are highly transactional that want to find a buyer today for a boat that is available today. And then there are brokers who take a long view and realize the sales' cycle for a mid 6-figure discretionary purchase may take a couple years.

In your case, I would see if you can find someone with experience selling mid/upper end fast sedan cruisers in the 50-foot range. Of course that person will have sold many other types of boats, but has been around thr type of boat you're interested in enough to help you with the process.

I suspect the market is pivoting from the sheer craziness of the last few years. Not saying it's back to historical normal buyers market (I do not know), but if yacht sales are anything like residential home sales, brokers now have a bit more time. But you may have to kiss a few frogs first which was apparently Nick 14's experience.

Peter
 
Peter, Yes the market is turning. as you I don't know if we are going back to a pre covid norm, but the tide is changing for sure. I think as you say this could take a year or there abouts so I think our timing could be good. This time last year everything was crazy money and "Under Offer" now I'm getting daily notifications of "Price Reduced"
 
Hey Peter, thanks for that Zimmerman contact. I reached out for more info.
Cheers Sir,
TBW
 
FYI: Zimmermans only works as a buyers broker. With almost no exceptions, (occasionally for long term/repeat customers) they do not work as seller’s brokers.
 
It's true that while the fee to any broker is technically paid by the seller, as others have pointed out, the money actually comes from the buyer. As others have said, the only source of money in any boat sale comes from the buyer. The seller might be the one disbursing the funds, but the money comes from the buyer's wallet.


So that there is no misunderstanding, the broker is not 'technically ' paid by the seller. The seller is, by contract, legally obliged to pay the broker if the sale completes and in some circumstances, even if it doesn't. The 'source of funds' is not 'the buyer's wallet'. It is the transaction of sale and purchase facilitated by the broker(s), and committed to by the seller.
In exchange for the seller's promise to pay commission, the broker assumes his or her own obligations to the SELLER, not the buyer. Some of those obligations are set out in brokerage agreement, and others may be created by statute or implied by the law depending on the jurisdiction. Some of these are properly described as fiduciary; obligations of the utmost good faith.
Among these may be an obligation to disclose to the SELLER any information obtained by the broker that is material to the transaction.
That is why you, as a buyer, may wish to consider what you disclose to the 'buyer's broker'.
Your new friend has another, legally binding allegiance.
 
Apologies- the first paragraph should be shown as a quote from post 36 above.
 
....

So that there is no misunderstanding, the broker is not 'technically ' paid by the seller....

I hope I didn't take this too far out of context, but while I understand the point that the buyers money funds payment to broker, I disagree with the conclusion - that the buyer has control over the broker/seller relationship. Funding a transaction is not controlling the transaction. "OPM" (other peoples money) is a well worn business axiom.

Simply put, if the brokers responsibility concludes when a specific boat is sold, the broker is obligated to the seller - a "Seller's Broker." If the brokers responsibility concludes when the buyer has purchased any boat, the broker is obligated to the buyer - a "Buyers Broker." It doesn't exist because while buyers want counsel and representation, few are willing to pay a separate fee or commission. If i understsnd their marketing pitch, Zimmerman has split the baby a bit with their buyer's program.

Where I take exception to many threads is the characterization of brokers as sleazy or lazy; or that they show little value to the buyer. Sure there are incompetent brokers or ethically challenged brokers. But successful brokers who have been at it for a while have a pipeline of buyers and sellers at different stages of their purchase/sales cycle. They understand thr likelihood of someone walking into their office for the first time and buying a $500k boat today is zero. But if they have 20 such inquiries, one will buy in the next two years. And for every boat purchased, odds are it will be re-sold within 5 years. Brokers have a lot of incentive to treat buyers with respect and vigor, but they are not obligated to do so the way they are contractually obligated to a seller.

In the end, I think many buyers do not know how to use a broker (and I mean that in a positive way). Buyers fire off an email and wait. And then get miffed when they don't get a reply. You have to cultivate a relationship which includes respecting their time and channeling your energy in a way that the broker can provide guardrails. If you're looking at a Viking convertible one day and a Nordhavn another, pretty hard for a broker to provide value beyond Yachtworld. On the other end, if you've honed in on a specific brand or model, the number of brokers with knowledge and experience for your search is limited.

Peter
 
Peter, i understand and respect everything you said.
I understand what you are saying regarding narrowing it down but there are several manufacturers that have built 48/50 ft RPH boats that are remarkably similar and would fit the bill. So, if it were you, and you were looking for a 48/50 RPH by say OA, Jefferson, McKinna, Vitesse, Offshore, or Symbol, how would you go about finding a suitably qualified broker?
 
Flatswing, Yes thanks Jeremy, a buyers rep is what we need.
Cheers, Nice boat Sir.
TBW
 
Hi Clive. I have my boat for sale. Stuart, Florida. 45' Tawanese trawler - CHB. $98K. Check Yachtworld for its listing and many others.

Mike
 
I looked at boats for 6 months from Vancouver BC to San Diego. I finally found my perfect boat in San Diego listed on Yacht World. It was listed at 50 % over my budget. After some long conversations with myself I made a less than full price offer and negotiations began. After a couple of weeks I reached an impass with the seller. We were only $2,000 apart and 10% below the list price. To close the deal each broker chipped in $1,000 from their comission! I have owned the boat for 22 years and spend winters aboard on the Sea of Cortez, MX.
 
trawler

Not sure if this was mentioned . Post on all of the sites mentioned what your looking for. Networking then if you find a possible boat to look at reach out to a broker ,a surveyor to analyze it. If your time is worth anything pay them to look at vs going around the world to look. The Trawler world is a close knit group in my opinion. You probably could find someone on here to look at it. If your not mechanically inclined and able to fit in the engine room then plan on at least 15 to 20 % of the purchase price to bring things up to your preference.
 
Clivepc: clearly I am biased but you may want to consider Hatteras 48LRC or Hatteras 58 LRC. For a bit more speed that Hatters 53 or 58 Motor Yacht. If you are OK with older boats they can be excellent values.
 
Would you jump into shark infested waters without protection?
I have found a buyers broker an invaluable asset. My buyers broker is based in New England but travelled the east coast for me from Florida to Maine.
 
Swimming with sharks

Would you jump into shark infested waters without protection?
I have found a buyers broker an invaluable asset. My buyers broker is based in New England but travelled the east coast for me from Florida to Maine.

I would not jump into shark infested waters with our without protection :)
As to the topic it seems this has drifted into shark infested waters. Since the OP already has indicated he wants to work with a broker perhaps we can just provide suggestions about boats that might be of interest. Or we could talk about the best anchor???
 
Ken, Actually Hatteras 48 LRC is on my list. They are a bit slow, but very well-built boats and a good layout for our needs. Only trouble is all the ones I've seen that don't need pretty much complete refit, are in the $250-300K range and in the 1975-80 vintage.
It feels like a hundred k more would get me into a 2004 Symbol or maybe a 20 year newer OA. BUT, I'll be casting a large net in the initial search and thanks for the help Sir.
TBW
 
MZ, Ken,
regards to broker. I actually had a very good conversation a with rep from Zimmerman this afternoon and was very impressed with what I heard from them and their service.
Of course, I would certainly appreciate any recommendations for other buyers brokers you might have.
Many thanks all,
Clive C TBW
 
Ken, Actually Hatteras 48 LRC is on my list. They are a bit slow, but very well-built boats and a good layout for our needs. Only trouble is all the ones I've seen that don't need pretty much complete refit, are in the $250-300K range and in the 1975-80 vintage.
It feels like a hundred k more would get me into a 2004 Symbol or maybe a 20 year newer OA. BUT, I'll be casting a large net in the initial search and thanks for the help Sir.
TBW

Thanks Clive. Yes 48LRCs were only built in the late 70s. Only 53 built and not too many for sale. Cruise of 7-8.5 knots is what you should expect. If you can find one with a good refit that is ideal as you won't get a better hull on any imported boat. $350-$400K should give you a wide range of potential boats to consider. Keep us posted and keep asking questions. Also you are to be congratulated for not just posting and dropping out but continuously providing feedback and thanks. That gets you a lot of respect and folks here are happy to help when they know it is appreciated.
 
If interested our 2006 Mainship 35 Trawler is on the market. It’s been a great boat for us.
 
Ken, Happy to receive the knowledge from those that know more. I have never been afraid to ask. What do they say, you can't listen if you are talking .. or something. Anyway thanks again.

David, many thanks. Probably not the boat for us but I appreciate you reaching out.
TBW
 
Clive: I used their service and actually had to dip into their warranty program after we discovered some delaminating around the Naiads 6 mos. Later. Long story short, a first class response from Zimmermans. none of us (including a 2 day very thorough survey)picked it up and, out of an abundance of caution, we decided to pull the Naiads and re-glass the mahogany mounting blocks. Turned out to be superficial, lousy initial glass job. But Steve Zimmerman was completely professional & we quickly agreed to split the repairs. Haywood is very knowledgeable & easy to work with. You have to put up some money up front, but they don’t nickel & dime you on expenses since you have some skin in the game. Anything left over from their commission is available as a credit in any of their employee owned service yards.
 

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