Lehman Removal

[Xlantic]

Here are my questuions:
1. Is it possible to raise the engine and remove a piston and con rod? Obviously, if it is a main bearing, the the engine would have to be removed to access the crank and check the journals.

2. How do you remove the engine from the boat? The boat is bit of a drive from my house so I can't easily measure the width to determine if would go through a saloon door. Will the engine have to be stripped to a short block status?

In relation to your first question, I would say yes you can and you should not even need to raise the engine. I used to have a 1979 GB 40 Classic with twin Lehmans 120s and had to replace the #6 piston in each engine. The mechanic was able to do it in-situ.

 

[Comodave]

Bob out in Virginia has made his living selling parts for lemans ,I’m sure he’s been laughing all the way to the bank For the last three decades, I can go through the whole history of the Ford Lehman, but you guys don’t wanna hear it, If you like your ford Lemans Then stick with your ford lemons I’m done with it myself ,About the only thing you can do in your boat and that isn’t easy is freshen up the cylinders that go bad From lack of use ,Hone the cylinders new rings gasket set rebuild the injection pump and that’s about it some people have gone as far as boring the Cylinders I wouldn’t do that but if you want to feel free your money, smooth running where do you get that from ,I know a guy that fashioned a 300 pound fly wheel for his Ford just to get it to run smooth ,I must live in an alternate universe I reject your reality and substitute my own

Bob has been dead for about 4 years now. Maybe get your facts straight before you go on another rant.

 

[omoore]

Why no alarms

Mea Culpa. I was returning to my home port from a months long total refit that including repairing rot, replacing most of the flybridge side plywood and a myriad of other things, including instrument wiring on the engines. 42k worth. Yes, I was crazy. So I did not get an overheat alarm. I am also kicking myself because I had planned to install raw water flow alarms once home when I planned to finish up. For want of a nail a shoe was lost...
Thanks for the tip of taking the engine out fore and aft which negates some of the bracing.

I will take the head off and inspect closely. With the head off I may get a better reading with my stethoscope.

Yes, the engines were seriously underused. But they were winterized and the boat stored in a heated building plus they had a fresh water life until 5 years ago.
I have appreciated all the helpful tips and insights. When I get more info,I will share it with everyone.

 

[Scooby5959]

Bob has been dead for about 4 years now. Maybe get your facts straight before you go on another rant.

I was aware of that his son is running the business ,can’t give Up a cash cow ,and I don’t rant A lot of people just don’t like being disagreed with, I don’t accuse other people of ranting either ,I just state my opinion and most always say it’s my opinion if you don’t like me or my opinion move on to somebody else is just an opinion get over it , I said in my opinion Lehman is a throwaway ,it’s more than just my opinion that is a common term used for an engine that isn’t designed for an in frame rebuild ,they call those engines throwaways ,they were built expensively and marketing aggressively to builders that we’re looking to cut the cost fact, I owned at least 10 of them ,I’m more familiar with that engine than most another fact, just like a cat 3208 mentioned above I owned one of those two ,throwaway engine ,easiest starting engine I’ve ever owned ,also real good for killing mosquitoes ,like the Lehman can be long lived because Boats hardly get used terrible fuel economy ,Another fact not opinion fact ,I could go on but I would get accused of ranting because how dare I say something about the engine you have in your boat ,you act like I’m attacking your masculinity

 

[psneeld]

They said 3208s Cats were throwaway and there is still a big market worldwide. So what is your point?

You don't like either engine and thats OK with the world.....I think.

But your claims are so far in the minority I hate for new people here to take much of what you post to heart without further research on their part. Notice how I didn't say I was right and you were wrong.

You couldn't possibly attack my masculinity based on your posts so far. As I say, not a Lehman lover, but fair and honest.

 

[Scooby5959]

I don’t really understand your comment

They said 3208s Cats were throwaway and there is still a big market worldwide. So what is your point?

You don't like either engine and thats OK with the world.....I think.

But your claims are so far in the minority I hate for new people here to take much of what you post to heart without further research on their part. Notice how I didn't say I was right and you were wrong.

You couldn't possibly attack my masculinity based on your posts so far. As I say, not a Lehman lover, but fair and honest.

I am trying to say ,somebody else mentioned 3208 was a good engine it is much like the Ford Lehman built inexpensively and marketed heavily ,they put them in a lot of things fire trucks ,dump trucks ,buses ,Local delivery trucks , and Boats , it’s also an engine that’s not designed to be rebuilt like the Ford Lehman ,when time comes to rebuild it there generally removed and replaced with a reconditioned unit or a different engine ,hence throwaway non-removable cylinder sleeve they weren’t particularly a good engine ,although there was a lot of them produced fuel economy was poor as well they had a tendency to smoke heavily on start up ,they were marketed aggressively and they were inexpensive comparatively ,there was a lot of them sold for that reason you still see them in Boats primarily is because a lot of boats don’t get used much ,you will not see them as much in vehicles , I write these things to try to clarify a lot of bad information that I read, people think ford Lehman is a good investment it is not nor is a cat 3208 do your own research and you will see that this is true, I don’t know what the worldwide thing is I didn’t mention anything about that ,if you want my opinion which I doubt ,about a good engine I can tell you, I don’t know why people defend ford Lehman ,They act as if their personally offended because they own one , They own one because that’s what the builder put in the boat ,now you’re stuck with it ,so what you tell yourself it’s a wonderful engine when it’s not ,whatever

 

[psneeld]

The joke is I have owned both these type engines and all the " throwaway" naysayers have been wrong for a long time.

I had a sport fish with 2 -3208s back in the 90s early 2000s and knew of a world renowned 3208 rebuilder that was doing each engine for less than 10 grand. There are currently several USA Lehman rebuilders doing it for half of what reengining would cost.

You are typically so off the mark of my reality as you would say...and me being in the commercial boating business and not the trucking world...I will stick with what I know and continue to point out posts that fly in the face of what I know or have experienced.

I don't defend what I own...I usually comment that that is the problem with the internet. I just reject your reality as so far off the mark of what I have read and experienced in the boating, not trucking world.

 

[Scooby5959]

We don’t agree and that is fine if you want a good engine look at the Cummings n14 ,or any engine that’s designed to be rebuilt so called in frame, at the very least Perkins ,Detroit not all but most caterpillar any of them with removable Cylinder sleeves would be a much better choice in my opinion!!!

 

[psneeld]

Big difference in switching engine types than just rebuilding or replacing in kind if the engine is "good enough".... and both 3208s and Lehmans are.

You should know that even as a trucker...we do in the marine trades.

 

[Scooby5959]

In the trucking world

Big difference in switching engine types than just rebuilding or replacing in kind if the engine is "good enough".... and both 3208s and Lehmans are.

You should know that even as a trucker...we do in the marine trades.

People usually make decisions based on finances sometimes you have no choice ,but if you do have a choice I would always go with replacements ,in the trucking world that can be difficult because the trucks are usually wired for a certain engine at least the newer trucks so normally you would just replace the truck,In the boating world Most of the time everything is very old your running gear is pretty wore out as well ,I know it’s very expensive what’s cheaper if you Marinize your own engine that is above most peoples skill level ,however in the commercial fishing side of things it is very common , good time to replace fuel tanks clean up electrical wiring overall refit it’s your choice pay now or pay later

 

[Scooby5959]

In the commercial fishing side of things it’s a whole different world ,those folks put thousands of hours on their engines sometimes in a year ,I’ve learned more from those folks than anything else ,you would be doing yourself a favor if you immersed yourself in that side of things especially if you’re planning a refit

 

[psneeld]

Running gear wore out?

What are you talking abbout?

Other than the engine, tranny on Lehmans are often BWs and last the life of the boat with servicing, often at least the life of the engine.

Shaft and prop..again same lifetimes.

Cutless bearings...consumables for peanuts.

Tanks and electrical harnesses are a puff in the wind compare to switching engine types most often.

Coming up with ideas again on land based decisions...not much to do with boats from what I can tell.

My guess is I have more time in reverse than you have on the water after 2 careers on the water.....not trucking. Learning from watching others and being in the shoes of others is 2 different things.

I am not sitting here commenting on trucks.....because my life was on the water....can't figure your angle.

 

[Scooby5959]

I’m in the process of doing a refit on my current boat 38 years old it needs to be done ,don’t know if propeller is original or not ,It’s showing signs of ware the propeller shaft has some inexplicable grooves in it can’t figure out where that would’ve come from ,None the less It needs to be dealt with I can see we’re not going to agree ,I find you as baffling as you find me I suppose , fuel tank is good thank goodness ,I’ve been working on the wiring all the different owners adding things ,I’m stripping it back down to the way originally wired ,my motto is simple is better to each his own I’ll let you know how it comes out if anybody’s interested ,No matter one way or the other ,This isn’t my first rodeo ,if you made your living on the water I can’t understand ,Literally everything goes bad eventually everything I have no idea what you’re talking about, anyways it doesn’t matter to each his own

 

[FF]

The working lobster boats had the right idea, they built the boat with replacing engines as part of the design plan.

The engine had a lift off hatch over it , the pilot house had a similar hatch in its overhead..

AS gas engines were usual, most lobster guys had deals with local junk yards , when a common engine came in that was a low time good runner, it would be sold to a fish boat as a spare .
AS usual there were Chevy , Olds , Ford , Buick fans ,and the usual comments.

Yanking the engine only required a crane after the engine was disconnected.

The boat style alt . was reinstalled, as was the tranny.and the Hyd pot hauler gear .

With flex metal exhaust tubing to re attach to the dry stack and radiator hose to get the keel cooling , it was a long nights work.

Although most rec boats kill their engines , rather than wear them out , it is sad that almost no thought is given to the swap.

Guess that's why outboards are gaining on larger pleasure boats.

 

[catalinajack]

Running gear wore out?

What are you talking abbout?

Other than the engine, tranny on Lehmans are often BWs and last the life of the boat with servicing, often at least the life of the engine.

Shaft and prop..again same lifetimes.

Cutless bearings...consumables for peanuts.

Tanks and electrical harnesses are a puff in the wind compare to switching engine types most often.

Coming up with ideas again on land based decisions...not much to do with boats from what I can tell.

My guess is I have more time in reverse than you have on the water after 2 careers on the water.....not trucking. Learning from watching others and being in the shoes of others is 2 different things.

I am not sitting here commenting on trucks.....because my life was on the water....can't figure your angle.

After reading Scooby's comments in this thread and a couple of others I have determined that he offers nothing of value, just a bunch of incoherent, unfounded blather. Now, when I see his screen name, I ignore his posting. I suggest others do the same. Perhaps he will do us all a favor and go away.

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

I used a 6x6 I beam to go horizontally across the salon. On the port side I had plenty of room so I used 6x6 lying on the deck and another stood on end to hold up the I beam. The triangles are to hold the vertical 6x6. On the starboard side I only had 2” so I used a 2x2 square tube to hold up the I beam. On both sides I used 2x4s to support the deck down to the stringers. I used a chain fall and trolley to lift and roll the engine to the other side. I used a piece of 3/4” plywood to replace the deck where I set the engine for the winter. I used 3 LVLs to make temporary stringers for the engine to sit on the engine mounts. I used various size of 2x to make support for the 3/4” plywood deck down to the stringers also. I lifted both the engine and transmission together, mine weighted about 1350 pounds. Took about 2 hours to get the first one out and 1.5 hours the next winter to get the second one out. Mine were the 225s so they weigh a bit more than the 120.

Thanks for posting pictures of this. Very fascinating.

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

Just got bad news that the broken water pump damaged the stbd engine on my GB42 Classic. Sounds like a rod or main bearing. The tech who diagnosed it was a 20 yr USCG diesel mechanic who went to work for himself after retirement. He is very knowledgeable.
His recommendation was to replace the engine with a new or rebuilt unit. But thinking about it, I don't know why one cylinder can't be rebuilt. In my experience typically one cylinder is damaged from brief overheating. Obviously if the damage is mmore extensive the engine will have to be rebuilt or replaced. Bearings etc are readily available. The boat lived most of its life in Lake Superior so it has only 1,900 engine hours. Brian has told me that they don't even think about a rebuild before 15k hours; has seen running Lehman's with 45k hours!

Here are my questuions:
1. Is it possible to raise the engine and remove a piston and con rod? Obviously, if it is a main bearing, the the engine would have to be removed to access the crank and check the journals.

2. How do you remove the engine from the boat? The boat is bit of a drive from my house so I can't easily measure the width to determine if would go through a saloon door. Will the engine have to be stripped to a short block status?

I am devastated because I have become emotionally attached to this old woodie.

So sorry for your boating woes. No advice, just wishes that you will find a way to do this that works for you. Would love to see some pictures and details if you can pull it off... Laura

 

[slowgoesit]

For those who may be interested, if you go to User CP, under "Settings and Options", you can select "Edit Ignore LIst". It's self explanatory from there. It's a handy feature to have in some situations.

 

[omoore]

I can't imagine anyone attempting--I say attempting--to marinize a diesel. The cost would be probitive. That is why there are so many companmies like Pantropic and Johnson & Towers that specialize in marinizing engines. Quite often they specialize in one brand and develop and manufacture their own line of marine parts. Some manufacturers like Cummins offer commercial engines. And don't forget that even manufacturers can screw up with marine versions. The DD 92 series is a perfect example. What worked on the road was a catastrophe on the water. I know first hand. Blew three of them. Most engines hours: 1,100. Cost of replacement including cost of dismantling and rebuilding side of helm station--$84,000 per.

 

[omoore]

Thanks Laura. Current thinking is that I will remove the head then hoist the engine to the salon floor. Will keep you up-to-date.

 

[FF]

"I can't imagine anyone attempting--I say attempting--to marinize a diesel. The cost would be probitive."

The choice is to either marinize the engine or marinize the boat..

A std road engine works just fine if the boat is fitted with a dry stack and keel cooling.

Insulation on the exhaust manifold might be needed if the engine space is not well ventilated.

As you found out the power requirements for a boat are very different from most OTR trucks or buses.

Select a strong engine that is not popular in boats can be very cost effective.

My favorite is the International DT 360 and 466, which can be had in electronic or non electronic injection.
in Skool buses that scrapped after a crash , so there are plenty to be found quite cheap.


https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Navistar_DT_engine

 

[Muirgen Afloat]

Thanks Laura. Current thinking is that I will remove the head then hoist the engine to the salon floor. Will keep you up-to-date.

Awesome.. looking forward to it

 

[SteveK]

Thanks Laura. Current thinking is that I will remove the head then hoist the engine to the salon floor. Will keep you up-to-date.

Once you get the head off most of the bolt on parts have come off as well. Left looking at the block and may as well rip that apart. So it becomes a complete overhaul by default.

 

[psneeld]

What comes off besides manifold, injector pipes and bleed off hose?

I remember pulling the head as pretty simple.

Some then pull the injectors if sending head out for reconditioning.

 

[SteveK]

What comes off besides manifold, injector pipes and bleed off hose?

I remember pulling the head as pretty simple.

Some then pull the injectors if sending head out for reconditioning.

The exhaust manifold is connected to the exhaust hose. Injector piping. secondary fuel filters, air cleaner, rocker
the coolant expansion tank to coolant hoses, so coolant is drained. I think the main heat exchanger is back end of the head (this may be onto the block).
I know I looked at it a while back and was not looking forward to pulling the head unless I had to.

 

[psneeld]

The exhaust manifold is connected to the exhaust hose. Injector piping. secondary fuel filters, air cleaner, rocker
the coolant expansion tank to coolant hoses, so coolant is drained. I think the main heat exchanger is back end of the head (this may be onto the block).
I know I looked at it a while back and was not looking forward to pulling the head unless I had to.

All I remember doing is exhaust hose, bleed hose, injector pipes, and drain coolant....everything else is on the block. Injectors to send head off for reconditioning. Not even a days work to disassemble, another to reassemble for just a head gasket. Air ratchets may have haved the time and I spent most of my time on a stubborn manifold stud.

Even with a couple more things to remove.... it's minutes work, not an engine overhaul unless you need one.

 

[SteveK]

All I remember doing is exhaust hose, bleed hose, injector pipes, and drain coolant....everything else is on the block. Injectors to send head off for reconditioning.

Even with a couple more things to remove.... it's minutes work, not an engine rebuild.

Maybe more like the better part of the day. OK, if you left the exhaust manifold and coolant tank attached your way can remove that all in one (gorilla)

 

[ABfish]

I'm not trying to take sides here, but my background is in construction equipment, and I can tell you that our old school shop manager considered any non-sleeved engine, such as a 7.3 International or the 3208 Cat to be a "throwaway". Ironically, he thought the 7.3 L International was marginal at best as far as durability, but when the 7.3 was installed in Ford pickups it was idolized by Ford fans.

My personal take is that the Leman has a good rep because it's simple and lightly stressed, and has had good parts availability for many, many years.

 

[psneeld]

The 3208 was considered a throwaway engine....but it lived well past that "limited mindset" reputation to go on for many more years being rebuilt by many and loved for what it was.

The same for the Lehman. From others, I heard the Lehman was supposedly designed to use in trucks. But it failed miserably at stop and go (which is what made the 3208 so desired)....so the Lehman was demoted to pumps, gensets, ag equipment and trawlers where it came into its own for thumping away all day at constant but lower than WOT hp settings.

I am not sure anyone is going to say either the 3208 or Lehman are legendary....but they fit the bill for their jobs and rather than going though the hoops of replacing with a different engine, many for simplicity sake rebuild or replace in kind.

 

[catalinajack]

I'm not trying to take sides here, but my background is in construction equipment, and I can tell you that our old school shop manager considered any non-sleeved engine, such as a 7.3 International or the 3208 Cat to be a "throwaway". Ironically, he thought the 7.3 L International was marginal at best as far as durability, but when the 7.3 was installed in Ford pickups it was idolized by Ford fans.

My personal take is that the Leman has a good rep because it's simple and lightly stressed, and has had good parts availability for many, many years.

Trying to understand, why would a non-sleeved diesel be considered a throw-way while any American V-8 can be bored and stroked and continue to be used?