Lehman Removal

[omoore]

Just got bad news that the broken water pump damaged the stbd engine on my GB42 Classic. Sounds like a rod or main bearing. The tech who diagnosed it was a 20 yr USCG diesel mechanic who went to work for himself after retirement. He is very knowledgeable.
His recommendation was to replace the engine with a new or rebuilt unit. But thinking about it, I don't know why one cylinder can't be rebuilt. In my experience typically one cylinder is damaged from brief overheating. Obviously if the damage is mmore extensive the engine will have to be rebuilt or replaced. Bearings etc are readily available. The boat lived most of its life in Lake Superior so it has only 1,900 engine hours. Brian has told me that they don't even think about a rebuild before 15k hours; has seen running Lehman's with 45k hours!

Here are my questuions:
1. Is it possible to raise the engine and remove a piston and con rod? Obviously, if it is a main bearing, the the engine would have to be removed to access the crank and check the journals.

2. How do you remove the engine from the boat? The boat is bit of a drive from my house so I can't easily measure the width to determine if would go through a saloon door. Will the engine have to be stripped to a short block status?

I am devastated because I have become emotionally attached to this old woodie.

 

[Comodave]

First, I am not a mechanic so I don’t know about what is involved with the work. Typically Lehmans damage to the number 6 cylinder is common when they overheat. I had SP225s in our last boat and I pulled them out to do work in the engine room. It was actually pretty easy to get them up into the salon. I built a crane to lift them up, one each winter, and slide them over to the other side. There are several threads that have info on it here. If the work can be done in the salon it will be easy to get the engine up there. Getting it out of the boat will be more challenging but should be doable. I made some stringers out of LVLs to set the engine on when it was up in the salon. Used 2x lumber to support the deck down to the stringers so the deck didn’t collapse. Good luck.

 

[alormaria]

A good boat yard shouldn't have any problem removing one or more of your Lehman's. My boatyard at the time had mine out in a morning. They used an articulating arm mounted on a very large fork lift to come in via the saloon door, turn and hoist it. It was on the ground in a few minutes.

 

[omoore]

Thank you both for the good info. I hadn't thought about working on the engine in the salon. But I see it makes a lot of sense. How much does this engine weigh. Did you leave the gears in the engine room?

 

[omoore]

Cple of questions. When you say used 2 by to support the deck...are ypou talkinmg about the salon floor?
What are the structures with the large triangular reinforcing? One side of the hoisting structure? What did you use to attach the hoist to?

Again this is really helpful.

 

[omoore]

I enlarged the pictures. It looks like you used an LVL between the vertical supports. Are the vertical supports wood or steel? Is that a chain hoist?

BTW I search for engine removal buit didn't get any hits. What are better keywords?
Oliver

 

[Larry M]

:… 1. Is it possible to raise the engine and remove a piston and con rod? Obviously, if it is a main bearing, the the engine would have to be removed to access the crank and check the journals. …

I am devastated because I have become emotionally attached to this old woodie.

I’d get the engine out of the boat for a complete rebuild. You’re not to far from Bomac who did the rebuild on our FL. In a morning the engine was out. We put it on a friends trailer and drove it Bomac and picked it up when it was done.

http://www.bomacmarine.com/pdf/Suggested-Parts-Kit-for-Lehman-Ford.pdf

 

[Solly]

Just my 2 cents but if you are pulling the engine go ahead and rebuild it completely. Not real sure why a bad water pump would damage a bearing. Guess it's possible. So if ones damaged the others might be too.

 

[Comodave]

I used a 6x6 I beam to go horizontally across the salon. On the port side I had plenty of room so I used 6x6 lying on the deck and another stood on end to hold up the I beam. The triangles are to hold the vertical 6x6. On the starboard side I only had 2” so I used a 2x2 square tube to hold up the I beam. On both sides I used 2x4s to support the deck down to the stringers. I used a chain fall and trolley to lift and roll the engine to the other side. I used a piece of 3/4” plywood to replace the deck where I set the engine for the winter. I used 3 LVLs to make temporary stringers for the engine to sit on the engine mounts. I used various size of 2x to make support for the 3/4” plywood deck down to the stringers also. I lifted both the engine and transmission together, mine weighted about 1350 pounds. Took about 2 hours to get the first one out and 1.5 hours the next winter to get the second one out. Mine were the 225s so they weigh a bit more than the 120.

 

[Choices]

Get a second opinion. They cannot pull head to see cylinder damage. If none? Rebuild where is. They can spin bearings out easily. Might not be that bad.

 

[SoWhat]

Yes to the second opinion. A mechanics stethoscope is a good diagnostic tool for checking internal components.

I don't think it's possible to guess ahead of time what needs to be replaced. Once the head is off the cylinders can be mic'ed and any scoring noted. if any scoring the cylinders need machining. The head mating surfaces can also be machined.

Working on an engine in place is not easy. I personally would take it down to a short block before removal.

 

[Lepke]

If you have a bad rod or main bearing, there is likely damage to the crank. If the engine threw a rod there could be other damage including cracks in the crank, damage to the block or cylinder.
I'd pull the head before hoisting. If there's no apparent damage to the cylinders and the engine turns, I'd hoist it enough to remove the pan and inspect the bearings. Bearings usually fail because of a loss of oil pressure or excessive rpm. Rod bearings usually fail before main bearings because they're last in line for the oil.

If a rod bearing failed the rod is no good, but the piston should be ok if the rod didn't break. Sometimes scaring on a crank journal can be smoothed and an oversize bearing fitted. But if it was my engine, I'd do a full rebuild while closely checking all internal parts.

 

[SteveK]

Just got bad news that the broken water pump damaged the stbd engine on my GB42 Classic. Sounds like a rod or main bearing. The tech who diagnosed it was a 20 yr USCG diesel mechanic who went to work for himself after retirement. He is very knowledgeable.
His recommendation was to replace the engine with a new or rebuilt unit. But thinking about it, I don't know why one cylinder can't be rebuilt. In my experience typically one cylinder is damaged from brief overheating. Obviously if the damage is mmore extensive the engine will have to be rebuilt or replaced. Bearings etc are readily available. The boat lived most of its life in Lake Superior so it has only 1,900 engine hours. Brian has told me that they don't even think about a rebuild before 15k hours; has seen running Lehman's with 45k hours!

Here are my questuions:
1. Is it possible to raise the engine and remove a piston and con rod? Obviously, if it is a main bearing, the the engine would have to be removed to access the crank and check the journals.

2. How do you remove the engine from the boat? The boat is bit of a drive from my house so I can't easily measure the width to determine if would go through a saloon door. Will the engine have to be stripped to a short block status?

I am devastated because I have become emotionally attached to this old woodie.

Can you give the signs and symptoms that led to a recommendation to rebuild? Sounds like a rod or main bearing. Is that a literal sound or a guess of problem.

 

[rgano]

Oliver, here is what happened on my 1972 GB 42's port 120 Lehman back in 1987 in San Diego. Loud clanking coming from port engine. Took it to Admiralty Marine, the local Lehman dealer where they compression tested it and found number six jug low due to seawater leaking back into the engine after shut down from a rotted steel muffler mounted OVER the engine - how dumb. They set up a lift much as shown above only mine was fore and aft, not athwartships so they could set up the support feet near the forward and after engine room bulkheads - no cabin sole-to-engine string supports needed. They lifted the engine and then replaced the engine room access hatches. Then they installed a very closely cut plywood covering over the entire saloon before lowering the engine onto some timber balks where it was stripped to a short block. They moved the boat to a berth where their crane arrangement could reach into to the cabin through the port side cabin door and pulled the block out without a scratch on anything, bored all six cylinders and installed six new identical pistons. Then they reversed the process. I had previously replaced the original poor muffler installation with two Verna-Lift mufflers. Four operating hours after I got the boat back, clanking noise returned. Admiralty took the boat back and again tore the engine down to find a faulty piston. Replaced all six and put the engine back in again, and it ran fine well after I sold the boat in 2015. You will recover from this, but I am thinking after a bit more checking including a compression test (if the engine is not seized) you would be best off to pull the engine for the best service because mechanics working in cramped quarters trying to patch up an engine with a single piston repair are going to have a lot harder time that if they have the engine out. You might even save hours that way. See Lepke's advice above. If the block is ruined, there are used Lehman 120s out there for sale you could use for parts.

Can you just briefly recap the casualty or direct me to a link here on TF and explain why the pump failure did not result in an engine-saving alarm?

 

[Comodave]

On our last boat I put in Borel Mfg exhaust temperature alarms that will go off almost immediately after you loose cooling water. Very simple install. No affiliation.

 

[Arc]

There is no harm in taking off the head and seeing what you are in for. If it is just 1 cylinder, then do it in the boat. If not , it’s less engine to remove through a door. I do not see why a bearing would go from overheat condition.

 

[rgano]

On our last boat I put in Borel Mfg exhaust temperature alarms that will go off almost immediately after you loose cooling water. Very simple install. No affiliation.

Yes, indeed. I have installed them in five engines so far. Water flow alarms seem like a good idea, but the Borel style overheat alarms a so much less intrusinve.

 

[SteveK]

I installed the Aqualarm and within months it paid for itself when the impeller failed. The alarm sounded before temp left operating zone

 

[Andy G]

:. The boat lived most of its life in Lake Superior so it has only 1,900 engine hours. Brian has told me that they don't even think about a rebuild before 15k hours; has seen running Lehman's with 45k hours!



For what it's worth.

You have a 50 year old marine engine that appears to be seriously underused. After having had the expensive pleasure rebuilding two FL120's, the one thing I learn't from this is that the old FL's love being used.

You might get away with identifying the immediate issue, however there are a lot of other parts on the engine that probably need attention. Have a plan and don't wait till things fail.

If you intend to keep the boat do the old girl a favour and give her a complete mechanical inspection, from the bottom up.

AND, to add to your financial woes, if you do remove the engine for work, take out the gear box and send it away to your local shop. They can split the case have a look to see if everything is as it should be. All being good it won't cost much and you should have peace of mind for the next 30 years. Don't wait till it fails.

Oh, and if you have everything out give the ER a good coat of paint while you are at it.

Did I mention the injectors?

Gotta love old boats-actually you do otherwise it will drive you crazy.

Good luck

PS. The GB 42' is a wonderful boat, you are lucky to have her.

 

[SteveK]

Omoore. I have 153 engine hours after a mistaken diagnosis that I need an engine overhaul. In my case it was a frozen damper plate. But it presented itself in a way to a good mechanic who gave me the worst case scenario.
Unfortunately it is a 50 year old engine and a rebuild is the first thought regardless of engine hours because newer engines fail sooner.

 

[Scooby5959]

I know it’s sacrilege to talk about the Ford Lehman ,people love those engines for reasons I cannot fathom,Those engines are what is considered throwaways they don’t have removable Cylinder sleeves and are not designed to be in framed overalled ,And on top of that they’re not a very good engine in my opinion ,I do not believe that 45 Thousand hour engine BS , that being said can they be long lived yes ,can they get the job done yes ,would I rebuild one no ,I would replace it with a different engine if it can’t be repaired in the boat ,it could be a bad damper plate making a racket it’s possible, removing them has been pretty well covered above , I know budget is everything, however I would try anything I could to put a couple of 50 hp Kabota-based engines back in it ,just saying ,my opinion ,nothing more, Oh there’s a lot of other 50 year old parts bolted to that engine are you going to replace those two ,how about the other engine and transmissions do yourself a favor if you can possibly afford it replace them both ,I guarantee it will put a smile on your face when you hear them run ,you’ll never trust those old lemans

 

[psneeld]

Worst advice so far. AND I am not even a Lehman worshipper.

Not that a replacement engine isn't a bad idea...but for none of the things mentioned.

I have had several Lehman expert mechanics tell me rebuilding in place is possible depending on mounting room and total need.

Almost every Lehman owner DOES trust their Lehman engine...it is the bolt on equipment (same as new engines) that tends to fail.

Drop in rebuilts are inexpensive and will outlast most owners here.

Parts are generic and had from inexpensive sources such as tractor parts stores.

Those with singles would need at least 75 to 80hp replacements.

As far as a "good" engine...what is good? Inexpensive and reliable? Or only one with the Scoobydobeedoo seal of approval?

 

[Scooby5959]

Worst advice so far. AND I am not even a Lehman worshipper.

Not that a replacement engine isn't a bad idea...but for none of the things mentioned.

I have had several Lehman expert mechanics tell me rebuilding in place is possible depending on mounting room and total need.

Almost every Lehman owner DOES trust their Lehman engine...it is the bolt on equipment (same as new engines) that tends to fail.

Drop in rebuilts are inexpensive and will outlast most owners here.

Parts are generic and had from inexpensive sources such as tractor parts stores.

Those with singles would need at least 75 to 80hp replacements.

As far as a "good" engine...what is good? Inexpensive and reliable? Or only one with the Scoobydobeedoo seal of approval?

I made it very clear that it was my opinion ,you made it very clear you don’t agree with my opinion , everybody’s entitled to their opinion

 

[omoore]

It overheat badly while underway and stopped running

 

[omoore]

I couldn't disagree more. Brian knows these engines in and out. After all his father was in charge of Lehman and they marinized most of all the Lehmans installed in sailboats and trawlers. They are increibly long lived for a good reason--I6 very low vibration. 383 ci and 109 hp. 1,600 rpm typical operating rpm. This is what gave diesels the rep for longevity. Today's high-speed, aluminum Yanmars and the like are closer to a gas engine. Thanks to having been the editor of Motorboating and the Publishing Director of Yachting I have had the privilege of in-depth talks with engine manufacturer chief engineers. The real measure of an engine's klife is HP hours. As the chief engineer of Detroit Diesel explained you can take the hp out fast or slow. That 3208 is a good example. At 210 hp very reliable and long lived. At 475 hp very fragile. I had 8-V92 in my Hat MY. 740 hp. Three replacements longest number of hours 1140. Spoke with tow boat operators who loved them and ran at 400-pls hp no problems.

Botrtom line: my engines at 1,900 hours, 1 owner who carefully maintained them for 40 years. They are in good shape.

 

[SteveK]

I made it very clear that it was my opinion ,you made it very clear you don’t agree with my opinion , everybody’s entitled to their opinion

Yes you have made your opinion known, often. 99 out of 100 are happy with the Lehman, it is as old as 50 years and still running, can still find parts to keep it going. It is old school and many old timers can wrench on them.

Why not start a thread explaining which engine is best IYO.

 

[omoore]

No you disn't. But I replaced the injectors and had the injector pumps replaced 300 hours ago.

 

[omoore]

Gardiner engines are the gold standard for long-lasting marine engines. Power European fishing boats and have unbelievable hours. "
Gardner Diesel Question/Thread [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum



Aug 05, 2018 · You might get 10,000 hours from a Yanmar before it needs. an overhaul, Gardners can expect 50,000hrs before overhaul. I believe Yanmar quotes 20,000 hours" Enough said

 

[Scooby5959]

Maybe we should take a poll

Yes you have made your opinion known, often. 99 out of 100 are happy with the Lehman, it is as old as 50 years and still running, can still find parts to keep it going. It is old school and many old timers can wrench on them.

Why not start a thread explaining which engine is best IYO.

Bob out in Virginia has made his living selling parts for lemans ,I’m sure he’s been laughing all the way to the bank For the last three decades, I can go through the whole history of the Ford Lehman, but you guys don’t wanna hear it, If you like your ford Lemans Then stick with your ford lemons I’m done with it myself ,About the only thing you can do in your boat and that isn’t easy is freshen up the cylinders that go bad From lack of use ,Hone the cylinders new rings gasket set rebuild the injection pump and that’s about it some people have gone as far as boring the Cylinders I wouldn’t do that but if you want to feel free your money, smooth running where do you get that from ,I know a guy that fashioned a 300 pound fly wheel for his Ford just to get it to run smooth ,I must live in an alternate universe I reject your reality and substitute my own

 

[jleonard]

Worst advice so far. AND I am not even a Lehman worshipper.

Not that a replacement engine isn't a bad idea...but for none of the things mentioned.

I have had several Lehman expert mechanics tell me rebuilding in place is possible depending on mounting room and total need.

Almost every Lehman owner DOES trust their Lehman engine...it is the bolt on equipment (same as new engines) that tends to fail.

Drop in rebuilts are inexpensive and will outlast most owners here.

Parts are generic and had from inexpensive sources such as tractor parts stores.

Agree. As long as the cylinder(s) doesn't have to be bored out and if the crankshaft can stay. Otherwise it's better off being rebuilt on the bench.
Once it's in the salon, it should be relatively easy to take out of the boat with a boom truck.

I am one of those that didn't really like my Lehman 120 when I first bought the boat. But the friggin' thing just kept chugging along.