Internet onboard world wide is here!

[ksanders]

KS,

Thanks for the info.

We would be using cellular 90% of the time, and have a wifi booster on the arch which helps with signal. I can sometimes can get wifi off our phones 30 plus miles off shore, but it's spotty.

We travel along the coast, but the problem is when we are in offshore Islands and tucked away in a cove and our service is not reliable for work related things. I am retired and just part time consulting now, but my wife is still full time and she needs a reliable Sat service for important phone calls, email, etc.

I haven't done much research on this lately because it will be a 2022 project if it happens, so I know enough to be dangerous at this point.

How are phone calls counted toward your data usage? I googled the amount of data they consume, but I am unclear how this translates within the data plan?

Is there an App you use for phone calls, or just normal phone usage as you would on land?

If you have say 5 hours of phone calls one day, how much data have you roughly used within your plan?

The system provides a dedicated analog phone line which costs 50 cents a minute an adder to your bill. You just hook up a regular phone. We use a cordless. The problem with any geostationary satellite phone call is the approx 1/2 second delay. The quality is very clear, as good or better than a good cellular call, but the delay does exist.

Another option would be to use WIFI calling over your iphone.

Yet another option is using a SIP phone system. We just transitioned away from our old PBX at my business and went with a cloud based VOIP solution. (we did this as a further move to cut our land based tether for our business). I use the new VOIP phone over cellular just fine and will be testing it out over the new SATCOM terminal in the coming weeks.

VOIP data usage would deduct from your rate plan allocation, just like any other data stream. I did test our new VOIP phones for idle time data use and found that it is remarkably low at less than a MB per day.

The big thing, and I know I'm repeating myself is that you need a router that can use multiple internet sources, and pick the one it's using based on a priority list. I am not sure what's on the market as far as brands. I use Cradlepoint routers and really like them. They are not cheap home gear, they are industrial class equipment meant for this kind of service.

Another really important thing is to minimize your satellite data use. Block all streaming, and device updates for one. All the background stuff is not needed in the short term over satellite. Block devices like cloud recording of security cameras, or anything unnecessary while on satellite. Just enable the basics. Web surfing, email, etc... and you'll find your data usage to be much smaller than you imagine.

Then when you reach an area with cellular everything automatically is unblopcked.

 

[BandB]

Very interesting thread. Prices will drop and capabilities will increase. Timing is the only issue. We've been on unlimited usage of KVH since 2014 and the improvements during that time are significant while the price has dropped.

 

[twistedtree]

Re Kevin’s suggestions about blocking unnecessary traffic over satellite, I took a slightly different approach.

I found that running around and turning off automatic updates on everything, and blocking various offenders in the router was an endless game of whack-a-mole that I was certain to lose.

So in the router I did the opposite, and only allowed select traffic. So instead of saying what to block, you say what to allow. That’s a much smaller list, and it very seldom changes. And if you miss something you will just find some app or device that doesn’t work, rather than getting a gigantic bill for some windows virus update.

 

[Fletcher500]

KS/TT, thanks for the info, very helpful.

KS, looking forward to hearing more about how things go with your new system. Have fun in the AK.

I have an Intellian dome for DTV on the port side. The dome on the starb side is empty, with the idea of it eventually being used for Sat coms. Perhaps in 2022.

 

[Simi 60]

OK, show me a faster global solution that I can purchase today, and that the antenna dome is not three feet in diameter. Something that will work at sea, not tied to a dock.

.

What do you call at sea?

Are mobile services really as bad as they sound in the US?
Here in Oz we can pretty much get cheap, fast mobile reception and data 10nm out up and down the coast and near major centres and antenna around 30nm.
We get that with a $40 phone used as a hotspot 24/7 beaming out to 6 different devices onboard.

 

[rslifkin]

What do you call at sea?

Are mobile services really as bad as they sound in the US?
Here in Oz we can pretty much get cheap, fast mobile reception and data 10nm out up and down the coast and near major centres and antenna around 30nm.
We get that with a $40 phone used as a hotspot 24/7 beaming out to 6 different devices onboard.

Good cellular coverage is a thing in most of the US, but in some of the less populated areas, it can be spotty or worse.

 

[ksanders]

Re Kevin’s suggestions about blocking unnecessary traffic over satellite, I took a slightly different approach.

I found that running around and turning off automatic updates on everything, and blocking various offenders in the router was an endless game of whack-a-mole that I was certain to lose.

So in the router I did the opposite, and only allowed select traffic. So instead of saying what to block, you say what to allow. That’s a much smaller list, and it very seldom changes. And if you miss something you will just find some app or device that doesn’t work, rather than getting a gigantic bill for some windows virus update.

Good idea! My challenge is that my old router, while very capable was not aware above layer 4. I( honestly did not think to check when i upgraded routers last summer) i was afraid of missing something buried under a well known port number so I only allowed a couple devices and turned off updates for them.

The new system having that capability will be a blessing.

I am also going to try to extend my reach via cellular a bit. Going to go with a 5G capable external mount dual antenna.

Thinking about this one.

https://poynting.tech/antennas/omni-402/?compare=14900

Have you used a external mount antenna? How did it work out?

 

[rslifkin]

The Poynting omni 402 gets excellent reviews, although I'd take a look at the Pepwave Puma antennas, as they have a wider frequency range (which means they cover t-mobile band 71). And get the antennas up high and clear of as much other stuff on the boat as you can for best range.

 

[Simi 60]

Good cellular coverage is a thing in most of the US, but in some of the less populated areas, it can be spotty or worse.

Good to hear, I was under the impression it was almost a different state needs a different service and almost nought on the water as so many seem to be chasing wifi connections instead of simply using mobile data.
Wifi is something I wouldn't even bother considering here.

 

[stevemitchell]

The Poynting omni 402 gets excellent reviews, although I'd take a look at the Pepwave Puma antennas, as they have a wider frequency range (which means they cover t-mobile band 71). And get the antennas up high and clear of as much other stuff on the boat as you can for best range.

I have both of these in multiple forms. The Poynting OMNI-400 and 402 are really good. The Puma is better in the lower range, but not so much in the higher frequencies. Overall, I've had better all around results with the Poyntings, with the OMNI-400 being the best since it is a single element antenna. However, in practice, most installs that I recommend/design/install are 402s since they are usually paired with a 2x2 MIMO radio or something else, and mounting 4x 400s isn't an option real estate and separation wise.

The Puma also does not have a great marine mount setup yet. Peplink are aware and don't have a solution for it yet, but there are some things on the horizon which will hopefully help.

 

[ksanders]

THANKS GUYS

I'll be ordering the omni 402 tonight.

This should pair well with my Cradlepoint AER1600 router.

I have two cellular modems, so I'll get two of these, one for each modem card.

Mounting will be up high out of the way

Every DB I can gain will be helpful!

 

[twistedtree]

Good idea! My challenge is that my old router, while very capable was not aware above layer 4. I( honestly did not think to check when i upgraded routers last summer) i was afraid of missing something buried under a well known port number so I only allowed a couple devices and turned off updates for them.

The new system having that capability will be a blessing.

I am also going to try to extend my reach via cellular a bit. Going to go with a 5G capable external mount dual antenna.

Thinking about this one.

https://poynting.tech/antennas/omni-402/?compare=14900

Have you used a external mount antenna? How did it work out?

You can be as course or refined as you want, and of course the capabilities of your router will factor in as well.


Simply allowing only select devices is a good first step. We allow only our laptops, phones, and ipads. That alone blocks out TVs and other entertainment devices from doing countless update. Plus is blocks Virus (windows) 10 updates, and updates from countless other devices.


Our router allows port filtering, so I further allow only IMAP (incoming email), SMTP (outgoing email), on some of the devices. That blocks the cloud invasion, and countless other unidentified users of your network connection. I once caught my Samsung TV doing a 600MB update even though it was set to not do automatic updates. That was thankfully while on cellular, as it would have otherwise cost me $300 for a pile of bits that I didn't ask for, didn't need, and didn't want. So that device is blocked no matter what.



All this is how we managed to live within the 2gb budget from KVH for the bargain price of $1000 per month.

 

[ksanders]

You can be as course or refined as you want, and of course the capabilities of your router will factor in as well.


Simply allowing only select devices is a good first step. We allow only our laptops, phones, and ipads. That alone blocks out TVs and other entertainment devices from doing countless update. Plus is blocks Virus (windows) 10 updates, and updates from countless other devices.


Our router allows port filtering, so I further allow only IMAP (incoming email), SMTP (outgoing email), on some of the devices. That blocks the cloud invasion, and countless other unidentified users of your network connection. I once caught my Samsung TV doing a 600MB update even though it was set to not do automatic updates. That was thankfully while on cellular, as it would have otherwise cost me $300 for a pile of bits that I didn't ask for, didn't need, and didn't want. So that device is blocked no matter what.



All this is how we managed to live within the 2gb budget from KVH for the bargain price of $1000 per month.

Yes Whitelisting works. Right up to the point where it doesn't work.

We have several hundred itunes movies on a external drive for a laptop. Tried to get the apple TV to play one and since the apple tv could not authenticate it would not work. The work around did work though, a HDMI cable out of the laptop to the TV.

I am highly interested to see just how robust the new traffic shaping toolbox is.
Also it's time to look into my new routers firewall and see how granular I can get.

 

[wkearney99]

Our router allows port filtering...

So that device is blocked no matter what.

Port filtering and whitelisting are useful as long as you understand what's involved. If you don't then it's adds a layer of debugging that can get really tricky to troubleshoot. The key is having a firewall that recognizes starting port use for a session and then the subsequent other ports used for the traffic.

It also helps to use something that handles DNS filtering. A simple way is using the pi-hole DNS script. It was originally designed to run on a Raspberry Pi, but will run on just about any other linux setup. I have a Pi model 4 that runs mine on-board.

This acts as a name lookup arbiter and logger. You can not only block things, but you can examine the lookups to see if there's any unexpected/unwanted activity from your devices. You just set the DNS info on your onboard devices to point to the pi-hole server's IP. This way they're filtered and logged, and can be easily blacklisted to prevent any further lookups.

 

[JWellington]

Ben, please change your message from ''is here'' to, what you amitted.....'is supposed to be coming soon''. It's a very big difference. We have been hearing such bold claims year after year, and lately the hype about Tesla or Amazon satellite service, etc.

 

[ben2go]

Ben, please change your message from ''is here'' to, what you amitted.....'is supposed to be coming soon''. It's a very big difference. We have been hearing such bold claims year after year, and lately the hype about Tesla or Amazon satellite service, etc.

I can't change it. I have no access to do that after a certain time has passed. Only an admin or mod can do it and I'm ok with that.

 

[JWellington]

OK, at least we all know that it is NOT here.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Well, it IS here, and has been for some time, just at a price point that many find distasteful for the Geo providers. Count me among those who have paid their deposit for Starlink and will be opting for the mobile hardware when it's available. Even before then, where I currently live, I pay almost as much per month for last mile wireless access with speeds in the teens and so will be replacing that as well

 

[JWellington]

Well, it IS here, and has been for some time, just at a price point that many find distasteful for the Geo providers. Count me among those who have paid their deposit for Starlink and will be opting for the mobile hardware when it's available. Even before then, where I currently live, I pay almost as much per month for last mile wireless access with speeds in the teens and so will be replacing that as well

You saw his quote, "is supposed to be coming soon".

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Yes, cheap worldwide internet is coming soon. Worldwide internet is already here for those who can pay for it.

 

[MRRiley]

https://findstarlink.com/

With the recent launches and the latency getting them positioned correctly, I'd think "is here getting activated" would be correct. If I recall, I read today that the FCC is being petitioned to slow Starlink down so competitors can try to catch up. At 100 a month and a 500 dollar buy in, I'll sure consider it.

Not sure why the link isn't working but cut and paste to see the current distribution.

 

[bowball]

Any updates on this as I look at solutions for data in coastal British Columbia?

Cell phone plans?
Starlink?

 

[Alaskaflyer]

No to Starlink as a reasonable alternative, yet. Allegedly hundreds of thousands like me who have paid initial deposit and are waiting in line, but beta period has been extended and mobile antenna has only been hinted at so far.

 

[man-o-war]

Found this thread when researching the KVH V3ip that came with new to us boat, looking to sell it. Works fine, modem/cable already sold, looking to get $2500 for the dome. We will be US/Bahamas mostly with no need for data. Safe boating!

 

[pjtemplin]

One thing to remember is that there's more to life than just bandwidth (number of bits per second) and price (cost per bit): latency. Light might be fast, but the time it takes to send your web request or voice packet up to a geostationary satellite, back down to the ground station, (then over the Internet to the server in question, process the response, and send it back to the ground station), up to the satellite, and back down your boat is massively higher than it is for a LEO satellite. That can easily push 700ms; VoIP expects to see <200ms as higher latency is too slow for normal conversation. Latency also affects the effective bandwidth of any one "packet flow" (e.g. one file transfer, one image download, etc.). Web pages are generally multiple flows, which is good, but movies, large digital images, and so forth are apt to perform much slower than published specs for the dome/dish.


There's actually a network between Chicago and NYC that intentionally still uses microwave towards rather than fiber, as fiber is rarely as straight-line as microwave can be. Financial transactions can end up with microsecond advantages, and the microwave network gives its customers an advantage. That's how seriously some communications take latency.

 

[draakken]

There's actually a network between Chicago and NYC that intentionally still uses microwave towards rather than fiber

There are also NY/NJ links using HF radio (< 30 Mhz), as RF is speed of light, and direct, no hops, no routers etc. in high frequency trading, time is everything, milliseconds matter.


I'm on the list for starlink for home, I can't wait for something better than 35 Mbit and 350ms ping times.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

I'm not sure if its late to chime in here and must first admit that my knowledge is poor. Last Comms I did at sea was via Porters Head Radio Bristol, once every 2 months to check on my Mum.

However - we have been looking for some good lower cost bandwidth to allow work when traveling. Spreadsheets, web work and the odd Zoom. Existing Satellite system (Like Irridium) seem to me like regressing to the 90's ashore. Great for voice but sluggish. Looked at Starlink available now (Q2 2022)but the price for a true marine version ....ouch. Then OnerWeb came on the radar with their arial system similar to Starlink (small flat). Seems more economical at just over $1K per month plus a big chunk for the hardware available early 2023 (I'll avoid figures as they seem to change so much). Economics aside, does anyone have experience of trying these now low orbit satellite based systems? Cheers.

 

[dannc]

...Looked at Starlink available now (Q2 2022)but the price for a true marine version ....ouch. ...

Starlink's Maritime version does not seem to be aimed at the private boat market but at oil/gas rigs, ships, cruise ships, and super yachts. The Maritime version has two dishes and higher bandwidth which would not be needed by the fast majority of boat owners.

There are plenty of people using the Starlink's RV service on their boats and it works. The big issue is lack of access 12ish miles offshore and use in other countries which seems to be mostly a regulatory issues. As more and more Starlink satellites contain the laser communication links there does not seem to be a technical reason for Starlink to prohibit service to small boats.

There is some debate on this but time will tell.

Later,
Dan

 

[Nick F]

Portishead (not Porters Head) !

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Portishead (not Porters Head) !

You are exactly correct! To add insult to injury, for many years I used to think it was Port Said, as in Egypt, could not understand why it all went through an Egyptian local. Ignorance knows no bounds with my simple mind.

Cheers,
Chris