Internet access or lack thereof

[stevemitchell]

I read your blog and looked at the Pepwave MAX Transit Router With Cat 12 LTE Advanced Pro Modem - $899

5G store also has a Pepwave MAX BR1 Mini with Cat 6 LTE Advanced Modem for $399

What's the difference between the two?

I don't use marina WiFi since it's slow or too many users. We don't stream video on boat. I have a WeBoost 4GX with their marine outdoor antenna. All I want to do is rebroadcast the cellular signal from the booster throughout a 40' boat via WiFi. We use 2 Samsung tablets to surf and emai.

The tablets needs to be close to the indoor antenna to get good connections. We want to be able to connect from anywhere on the boat.

We boat Puget Sound and BC and the carrier is Verizon.

The most important difference is that the MAX Transit has BOTH 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz while the BR1 Mini has only 2.4GHz.

I would not recommend purchasing a router that does not have 5Ghz. Per my article further up in the thread about why Marina WiFi is hard, that extends to inside the boat - 2.4Ghz WiFi definitely "reaches" further, but it can be impossible to get reliable signals even inside the boat. 5Ghz is what most modern stuff uses now, so having that is important.

The other differences include a single WiFi radio vs two (of course), more LTE band support, and a faster processor. There are also some smaller features missing, but those are the big ones.

If you get an LTE router, stick it close to the booster and you'll be good. That's what I do when I need the booster. That way both the router and other devices can take advantage of it.

However, and I think I mentioned this in several of the articles, boosters are rarely effective in metro areas. In fact, they slow things down. I find better results about 95% of the time connecting an outdoor marine LTE antenna directly to the antenna port of an LTE router. No booster. When in metro areas, it gives amazing performance. Urban areas even like the San Juans, and it provides really good performance. Out in the middle of nowhere it still works, and this is where the booster would make it much better, but I would rather enjoy the water

Verizon can be picky about adding LTE routers to plans. If you can get just a month to month unlimited or X GB per month plan, they seem to care less. If not, be prepared to need to escalate to a 2nd or 3rd level support person to get it working correctly.

 

[Pau Hana]

The Nighthawk is a great unit, used by a lot of RV'ers. I have one and it is a great unit as long as you have a good outdoor antenna if you care about getting signal in remote areas.

What Verizon plan are you going for that is $60/month unlimited? They had one a year and a half ago, and they discontinued it. I still have the plan and it is amazing - completely unlimited and unthrottled, whereas the other 4 plans I have are "unlimited" but slow down at some point....

I'm going with OTR Mobile for the plan.

 

[stevemitchell]

I'm going with OTR Mobile for the plan.

Ah they have a good $60/month unlimited plan using AT&T's service. I tested their stuff earlier in 2019 and really liked it - similar to the Verizon unthrottled plan I have. Unfortunately, no roaming, just like Verizon, so so it is at least limited to US-only use for me....

 

[syjos]

Thanks Steve,

What about the Netgear LB1120-100NAS that you recommend on your blog for less money?

How about placing the Netgear antenna near the WeBoost inside antenna and connect the Netgear LB1120 to a 2.4/5.0 WiFi router?

As I mentioned, I never connect to marina WiFi.

 

[syjos]

Another one is the NETGEAR Nighthawk M1 Mobile Hotspot 4G LTE Router Mr1100

It has ports for two Celluar antennas and built in WiFi 2.4 and 5.0

If I place the WeBoost inside antenna next to the Nighthawk, won't this allow me to eliminate one component - a separate WiFi router?

 

[stevemitchell]

Thanks Steve,

What about the Netgear LB1120-100NAS that you recommend on your blog for less money?

How about placing the Netgear antenna near the WeBoost inside antenna and connect the Netgear LB1120 to a 2.4/5.0 WiFi router?

As I mentioned, I never connect to marina WiFi.

That would be a good solution for sure. You probably wouldn't need the external Netgear antenna, if that is what you're talking about. Those Netgear routers are really excellent, and I know a bunch of folks who are running them and love how simple and reliable they are.

Another one is the NETGEAR Nighthawk M1 Mobile Hotspot 4G LTE Router Mr1100

It has ports for two Celluar antennas and built in WiFi 2.4 and 5.0

If I place the WeBoost inside antenna next to the Nighthawk, won't this allow me to eliminate one component - a separate WiFi router?

This is what was mentioned by Pau Hana above and is a great router as well. Extremely popular in the RV crowd, and definitely would eliminate the multiple devices. You could set it next to your booster and get great results.

It gets hard trying to write articles about this stuff because everyone wants something a little different - all-in-one or multiple pieces, etc. etc.

 

[AdmiralS]

Thanks Steve,

What about the Netgear LB1120-100NAS that you recommend on your blog for less money?

How about placing the Netgear antenna near the WeBoost inside antenna and connect the Netgear LB1120 to a 2.4/5.0 WiFi router?

As I mentioned, I never connect to marina WiFi.

Excellent device. We have the Mikrotik Groove 52AC plugged into the Netgear LB1120, which is then plugged into a Ubiquiti Amplifi Cube that serves up wifi to all the devices.

Provides seamless connectivity for our devices. As soon as we pull out of the marina it fails over to cellular data and everything is up and running. Once we get to our destination we connect the Groove to the Marina wifi or often a wifi hotspot from the cable company and we stream HD TV without issue.

Traveled up and down the east coast this summer and it worked spectacularly!

 

[syjos]

That would be a good solution for sure. You probably wouldn't need the external Netgear antenna, if that is what you're talking about. Those Netgear routers are really excellent, and I know a bunch of folks who are running them and love how simple and reliable they are.



This is what was mentioned by Pau Hana above and is a great router as well. Extremely popular in the RV crowd, and definitely would eliminate the multiple devices. You could set it next to your booster and get great results.

It gets hard trying to write articles about this stuff because everyone wants something a little different - all-in-one or multiple pieces, etc. etc.

You're doing an excellent job! Thanks.

Have read all your blogs pertaining to internet and they are very informative.

We use the WeBoost in remote areas away from cell towers.

I was thinking of the Netgear and antenna only when in metropolitan areas since the WeBoost modulates power when close to towers.

 

[ksanders]

I do not use marina WIFI, preferring to use cellular data, which is faster and more reliable.

I have a Cradlepoint AER 1600 Router, with two LTE modems. One has a sim card from a local carrier, and one uses AT&T.

The router provides a priority system for the WAN connection so that I can choose the connection I want, and fail over to the second and even a third connection.

Last resort is satellite. We get 2mbps anywhere on the planet, but at $0.50 per MB it’s an expensive last resort.

This is all automatic, even isolating devices like the Apple TV from the satellite link to reduce costs

 

[ranger58sb]

I mentioned these, in another forum:

https://www.radiolabs.com/wireless/wifi-cards/high-power-usb-wifi/802-11ac-usb-wifi-card/

We've been using a RadioLabs USB-powered external WiFi connected to a single laptop for maybe 10 years or so... original being only 2.4 gHz and this current one having both bands. No external mounting issues, and it works well enough inside our saloon. Decent enough results to expect their other products are likely OK... if they say they do what you want.

And then:

https://www.radiolabs.com/wireless/...ess-points/802-11ac-high-power-router-1-watt/

We don't have that one. Note in the Wave Stealth info they suggest as a companion to the router... so maybe that means the router isn't a stand-alone solution to "marina access + your WLAN."

Anyway, not a lot of money for the pair, if useful...

-Chris

 

[twistedtree]

Do they load a custom firmware on the MikroTik as they used to on the Bullet, or is it just a bundle with updated mounting hardware and remote tech support?

I've been waiting for someone to produce a custom, streamlined firmware for the MikroTik, but it is a huge undertaking, and no one seems to have done it yet...

Yea, the Mikrotik firmware and configuration is not for the faint of heart. I consider myself to be pretty technical, and it leaves me scratching my head more often than not. But it works and is very reliable. So far their products are the only ones I have found that will run indefinitely without seizing up and requiring some sort of manual intervention to reboot. I have a number of locations, including the boat, where they need to run unattended for long stretches - months at a minimum. Mikrotik works.

 

[Simi 60]

I'm still not getting it.
Why go all this extra drama and cost to get internet onboard when a hotspot works and costs $0
What am I missing?

 

[Woodland Hills]

I'm still not getting it.
Why go all this extra drama and cost to get internet onboard when a hotspot works and costs $0
What am I missing?

Data limits is why. We stream a couple of hours of TV every evening after dinner in addition to web surfing and last month we used over 100gb of data. Even an “unlimited” plan throttles your hotspot down to dialup speeds after 15gb. You can still hard wire to your TV to get it up on the bigger screen, but after 20gb they slow you down so much you cannot stream even on your tiny phone.
Now we have Island WiFi for a truly unlimited plan that lets us hook up 6 devices and never slows down.

 

[stevemitchell]

I'm still not getting it.
Why go all this extra drama and cost to get internet onboard when a hotspot works and costs $0
What am I missing?

Hotspots are great for some folks, but don't work for everyone. Not only are they limited to the device you're using and its antenna, but as others have mentioned, there are data and device limits on hotspot devices.

The biggest challenge I see is signal strength with a hotspot device. You could put it next to a booster, which would help, but ultimately if you are in low signal areas, a proper router and antenna are far better.

The data and device limits are complex here in the US as well. Multiple providers limit the number of devices you can connect to a hotspot, and also limit the amount of data you can stream through the hotspot for those connected devices. On typical 20-30GB plans per month for a phone/hotspot, you only get 1-2GB of "connected device" data, which is very low.

I know plenty of people who love using their hotspots or even dedicated MiFi/routers from providers, and they have no issues with signal strength or data caps because they do limited streaming and other high bandwidth. Some folks want to go further out away from signals, and stream 4K episodes of Netflix, which requires a whole new way of dealing with things

 

[Beaverlake]

We have the Magenta 55+ unlimited plan from T-Mobile (probably the best carrier in the San Juan Islands). $90/mo total with taxes for two phones. Coverage in US, Canada, and Mexico. 20gb 4g lte hotspot in the US and 5gb 4g in Canada. For each phone. They also have Three different modems that we could use (with somewaht questionable reviews). I haven’t decided whether or not to put data on the boat as a non-tethered service but if I do I’ll take this route. There is a data charge for the modem but I think it’s only about $20/mo. Oh yeah - we also get Netflix for free so our actual net cost for two unlimited Mobile lines is about $75 here in WA state.

 

[Simi 60]

Data limits is why. We stream a couple of hours of TV every evening after dinner in addition to web surfing and last month we used over 100gb of data. Even an “unlimited” plan throttles your hotspot down to dialup speeds after 15gb. You can still hard wire to your TV to get it up on the bigger screen, but after 20gb they slow you down so much you cannot stream even on your tiny phone.
Now we have Island WiFi for a truly unlimited plan that lets us hook up 6 devices and never slows down.

No problem's in Australia
Full tits on our 80gb plus unlimited calls and text for $41/mth until we run out.

 

[tozz]

I am looking for something to replace the cable modem. This device should plug into the routers WAN port and accept its internet input from the marina wifi.

Our setup is a Wave Rogue dual band connected to a Pepwave MAX BR1 router. The Pepwave is the wifi access point for the boat network and all devices connect to that for local and Internet service including printer and our Vesper XB-8000 AIS transponder. The Pepwave also accepts up to two cellular sim cards so I have an ATT SIM in there.

When at marina I use wifi and when cruising move cellular to highest priority. The pepwave user interface is very intuitive and easy to navigate.

-tozz

 

[AnnapolisJoy]

Wave here also

Our setup is a Wave Rogue dual band connected to a Pepwave MAX BR1 router. The Pepwave is the wifi access point for the boat network and all devices connect to that for local and Internet service including printer and our Vesper XB-8000 AIS transponder. The Pepwave also accepts up to two cellular sim cards so I have an ATT SIM in there.

When at marina I use wifi and when cruising move cellular to highest priority. The pepwave user interface is very intuitive and easy to navigate.

-tozz

I also employ a WAVE. It is connected to a Nighthawk router which broadcasts to an AppleTV, three iPads, two iPhones and a smart TV.

Connections when at a marina or on a mooring near a marina is fair. Throughput is determined by the marina network and the distance from the mainland wifi hot spot.

We download Netflix, AmazonVideo and iTunes content to watch when out of range. We also have a Mac Mini server loaded with over 400 movies and TV shows. This is in addition to the DirecTV satellite receiver for the salon TV.

When away from shore we use our cellular coverage on the iPhones and iPad. We have unlimited plans and do not worry about data limits.

When in the Bahamas or in Canada we get the Island mifi and sign up for a local plan while visiting.

It isn't optimum as we still have to plan ahead and download before leaving coverage.

The worst times are when offshore out of cell coverage and realizing we neglected to make a marina reservation!

 

[hpogue123]

I didn't see anyone mention Alfa Wifi Camper Pro 2 <$140(Rokland) or less. I've had one on my trawler for a copule years now. Runs on 12V and with a Paraboic antenna ($60 Amazon) instead of Omni directional on the mast, I get internet over 5 miles offshore.

 

[tozz]

Connections when at a marina or on a mooring near a marina is fair.

Agreed. In fact I’m of the opinion that unless I’m home port with known good Wi-Fi, it’s not worth the effort and focus on robust cellular connectivity.

-tozz

 

[Scottwb96]

I work in telecom, so take this for whatever it's worth...

First off, you are going to have different experiences based on the carrier. For instance, Tmobile will allow you to tether via USB directly into a device/router. "unlimited" data, until they throttle you. May Also only be 3G.
Sprint you cant tether, but you you can buy 100G and get full 4G then throttled to 3G after the 100G.
Hotspots were designed to be placed next to the device being used, not great for distances or for penetrating walls. Some also have limits to how many devices you can actually connect to the hotspot at any given time.
For me personally, I am a veteran, so I get a pretty great discount through Sprint ($30 for an additional line w/ 100G hotspot).
My setup includes turning the phone into a hotspot, but having the signal bridged to a router. This gives me the same ease and functionality as well as great coverage across and through my boat (Linksys - Max-Stream AC2200 Tri-Band Wi-Fi Router (EA8300).
I have a full Sonos system that runs 15 speakers/devices. 4x 5MP HD cams for various locations, running off a POW switch. Raymarine devices synced for auto updates. 3x Roku's. Stream my music (pandora/youtube/Spotify, etc) stream Amazon, Netflix, ZERO issues or buffering...
I have ran multiple conference calls through work and led demos w/ full screen share capabilities.
So, the short answer, look into what your carrier offers and how it connects and get yourself a decent router. if the one you have at your dock is a modem/router combo, get rid of that and get yourself 2 devices. Done correctly, you should be able to set them both up. Router will pull connection from dock when available, switch to cell when not...

FYI, feel free to PM if you have any questions!

 

[stevemitchell]

My setup includes turning the phone into a hotspot, but having the signal bridged to a router. This gives me the same ease and functionality as well as great coverage across and through my boat (Linksys - Max-Stream AC2200 Tri-Band Wi-Fi Router (EA8300).

How exactly are you bridging your phone to the router? Using the Linksys bridging feature? Doesn't that kill one whole band on-boat - i.e. you have to choose 2.4 or 5Ghz to lose on the Linksys so it can use that to connect to your phone?

 

[Scottwb96]

I would have to get into the router settings to look specifically. But basically you are telling the router to look/connect to a specific outputted signal (hotspot). I still have both bands available to connect TO the router.

 

[sledge]

The beauty of using either a phone or something like a nighthawk is absolute simplicity. The consensus seems to be marina wifi tends to not be competitive with cellular and that a hotspot works pretty well for most people.
We once toured a Nordhavn for sale at a boat show for fun, walked up to the pilot house and there was a laptop, various pieces of hardware (likely modems, etc) and miles of wire strewn all over the place. I couldn't believe the mess I was seeing and the owner thought he could sell it with this mess all over the helm, but I guess some people don't mind this as much.
I'm getting ready to spend a bit more time aboard in 2020 so also wanting to tackle the connectivity dilemma. But i think we'll just start out trying the hotspot method for a while and see how it goes before we add a whole bunch of hardware.
Some hotspots like the Jetpack include external antenna ports so you could run it to an outside antenna up on a mast if necessary but still not having to get much more in the way of hardware.
5G is not yet ready for primetime but it is still changing the playing field and all the components will be evolving rapidly in the next 2 years, so it should be interesting to watch.....

 

[rslifkin]

Some marina wifi is good, some is pretty terrible. So unless you have more data available than you could ever use (or unlimited), IMO, it's worth having a way to make good use of marina wifi when there happens to be a good one available. But not being reliant on it is good as well.

 

[stevemitchell]

Some hotspots like the Jetpack include external antenna ports so you could run it to an outside antenna up on a mast if necessary but still not having to get much more in the way of hardware

This is the approach that the majority of my customers end up choosing for their first system. The Nighthawk M1 or something similar plus a couple of these adapters https://amzn.to/2QMwE8M along with a good outdoor antenna and cable make a great system.

The only big limit, as discussed before, are the # of devices you can connect to the device. That usually is what drives folks to look at bigger or more modular hardware.

 

[DonScatt]

As another option, we have an Aigean WiFi client - https://aigean.com/ It will connect time either a marina WiFi or to a wireless card. We use a Verizon card for those times we’re out of WiFi range. The Aigean client transfers seamlessly to the best signal and we rarely have to look at it unless we’re connecting in a new marina. I have many devices including a wireless printer and it all works great.

 

[twistedtree]

This is the approach that the majority of my customers end up choosing for their first system. The Nighthawk M1 or something similar plus a couple of these adapters https://amzn.to/2QMwE8M along with a good outdoor antenna and cable make a great system.



The only big limit, as discussed before, are the # of devices you can connect to the device. That usually is what drives folks to look at bigger or more modular hardware.

This is where I have gotten the most use of my WiFi extender most recently. Instead of connecting to shore WiFi which seldom works acceptably, I use it to connect to whatever hotspot device is in fashion at them moment. It might be an ATT mifi device, or a phone acting as a hot spot. Whatever the device, it extends it to the whole boat’s network, yet still appears as a single device.

 

[ksanders]

Yea, the Mikrotik firmware and configuration is not for the faint of heart. I consider myself to be pretty technical, and it leaves me scratching my head more often than not. But it works and is very reliable. So far their products are the only ones I have found that will run indefinitely without seizing up and requiring some sort of manual intervention to reboot. I have a number of locations, including the boat, where they need to run unattended for long stretches - months at a minimum. Mikrotik works.

The cradlepont stuff runs very well, and they have a remote access feature even for non routable ip addresses. The remote service runs through their servers and costs in the $80 per year range.

 

[otnot]

It's sounding possible that we may have cheap internet anywhere in the world if SpaceX plan for 10,000 satellites comes about.
https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-satellite-internet-service-2020.html