How seaworthy are early 80's trawler yachts

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Lars Kessel

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
11
Location
South Africa
Vessel Name
First Lady
Vessel Make
Beneteau First 345
I am thinking of buying an early/mid 80's trawler such as a Marine Trader 38 or 44 for cruising in the Caribbean. Taking her from Florida to the Bahamas seems to be doable (have seen it on Youtube by Tula's endless summer) but can I go further? How do the Taiwanese production trawlers handle a blow and heavier seas? Currently I am sailing a 34 ft Beneteau sailing yacht but the liveable space of a trawler yacht appeals to me.

I am grateful for any comments.

Cheers Lars
 
Greetings,
Mr. LK. Welcome aboard, if I've missed you. As has been mentioned many, many times, any vessel will usually take more than the crew. That being said, "seaworthy" is a very vague term. Watch the weather, pick your time for making passages and enjoy the Caribbean. As a general statement I think I can say that sailing vessels are better suited for snotty weather than power vessels simply by virtue of their design but as you note, "stinkpots" have more livable space. Apples and oranges...
 
If the seaworthyness is very important I'd be think'in about sailboats.
So much more easily driven than trawlers they get by w much smaller engines. When I repowered the 36hp Perkins that I took out got sold to a man w a 40' sailboat.
And sailboats having sail have built in stabilizers. Sure the boat heels but dosn't roll. Should be much more comfortable. And there's the built in "get home" ... sails.
I think someone said there are many many more sailboats down there and the above is some of the reasons.
 
You'll do fine if you pick your weather windows although I'd go with the 44'. The Caribbean can be a pain in the winter because of the prevailing wind and sea direction. That's one of the reasons you don't see many power boats less than 50' in relation to the number of sailboats.
 
I agree sail boats are generally more stable than power. Keel, rig, hull form and sails reduce reaction to sea surface . Wind in sails adds greatly to feeling of stability.
 
Just like sailboats, there are trawlers that are blue water boats and there are boats that are coastal cruisers. Most of the Taiwanese Tubs of the 80's are coastal cruisers.
 
Best to confine a boat to waters it's designed for. Best to confine a crew similarly. That opined, you should not resist the opportunity to stretch your experience and skill set.

Pay attention to the differences in appearance between serious ocean-going craft and recreational boats. Glass area and size are good clues. Freeing ports (larger scuppers, some with doors) are too.

Of course, the most important element is the crew. Some folks get away with anything that floats and go anywhere. But folks are much more likely to succeed w/o undue adventure and enjoy the trip if they choose their passages and their weather, and have their craft in good shape.
 
Storm cover can help with the big TT windows , but the scantlings are far below ocean rated vessels.

Look for a Euro A rated boat and you will have a better start,

although some folks with super care have gone offshore in a TT.

The built for offshore boat is about 300% more expensive than the usual lakes and bays boat and carries many handy caps for coastal work.

Bigger tanks tighter spaces , but the US dollar is still fairly high /.

If you can find a stranded boat , a Euro A in the USA that is still untouched , the hard to use in the US , Euro 240v electric system , you might find a deal.

I would look in the "dreams over" places like Panama or Trinidad.
 
I come from a sailing background and I have to say that my TT is not something I would be comfortable taking in the open ocean for a long passage. When I take a wave head on, I have a lot of fun. But with a following or beam sea, the fun stops. They have a high centre of gravity and are just not meant to take a beating like sailboats are. But then again, some people will cross the Atlantic on a row boat...
 
Been there, done that

Previous comments seem relevent. My wife and I spent 15 years living aboard 2 sailboats in all parts of the Caribbean. Then 6 years ago we found our aging bodies wanted more comfort and space so we bought a 44 ft Marine Trader Sundeck, built in1985, in Jacksonville. A wonderful coastal boat for Florida waters but we wanted to return to the windward/leeward islands. St Martin and Martinique being out favorite haunts. Spending months at a time at anchor and not travelling a great deal. We took a year to fit Paradox ll out for such living. Solar panels, wind generator, large house battery bank, 90 lb. Rocna anchor, 220 ft 3/8 ths chain, led lighting, gutters around sundeck top for a rain catch, added foot pumps to sinks, had fuel tanks cleaned, painted out some exterior varnish work, removed teak decks from main deck, sunshades around after deck, fabricated and mounted a dinghy lift at transom and some other things I may have forgotten.
We had made the voyage from Panama to Florida along Central America and twice from Florida to the Windward/leewards on our sailboats. Now it was time for a trawler and we faithfully followed the advice in Passages South. We patiently waited for weather windows including a month at Rum Cay and a month at Luperon in the DR. Took our time through Puerto Rico, Culebra, U.S. and British Virgin Islands. Roughly 15 months to St. Martin.
This is our 5th year now in the islands. Several times back and forth to the Grenadines and St Martin. Just now arrived in Martinique from the summer in Grenada.
So, to answer the question, yes it can be done safely if you watch the weather, have time and patience. Is it always comfortable, no! The tradewinds and swell tend to be abeam when transiting between the islands down here, and that is not helpful. If you want to move between islands regularly a sailboat is a better choice. The other option is a trawler with stabilizers. Either fins or trawls. We have done the travelling and have been happy staying in our favorite anchorages. Here in Ste Anne are 100+ boats and only 2 of us are trawlers! Think of us as floating condos! Spacious, comfortable, and moveable. But tender!
Can you move in less than desireable weather? Yes, but it will be uncomfortable. You can reduce speed and change course, sometimes crabbing across open water, letting her make a lot of leeway, at a slow speed, drifting towards your destination.
Final comment... I saw a 44ft Defever with stabilizers for sale. A good choice, but she had some other less desireable features and was more expensive. There is a 42 ft trawler with added trawls they said made a great difference, down here. If you can afford a real Passagemaker it is a better choice.
We have been happy with Paradox ll as she has done what we have wanted to do. After 21 years in the islands though, we are ready to move ashore and she is for sale. (Apollo Duck and Yachtworld) Hope our experiences and opinions are of help to anyone wanting this lifestyle.
 
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Capt. Steve said:
Previous comments seem relevent. My wife and I spent 15 years living aboard 2 sailboats in all parts of the Caribbean. Then 6 years ago we found our aging bodies wanted more comfort and space so we bought a 44 ft Marine Trader Sundeck, built in1985, in Jacksonville. A wonderful coastal boat for Florida waters but we wanted to return to the windward/leeward islands. St Martin and Martinique being out favorite haunts. Spending months at a time at anchor and not travelling a great deal. We took a year to fit Paradox ll out for such living. Solar panels, wind generator, large house battery bank, 90 lb. Rocna anchor, 220 ft 3/8 ths chain, led lighting, gutters around sundeck top for a rain catch, added foot pumps to sinks, had fuel tanks cleaned, painted out some exterior varnish work, removed teak decks from main deck, sunshades around after deck, fabricated and mounted a dinghy lift at transom and some other things I may have forgotten.

We had made the voyage from Panama to Florida along Central America and twice from Florida to the Windward/leewards on our sailboats. Now it was time for a trawler and we faithfully followed the advice in Passages South. We patiently waited for weather windows including a month at Rum Cay and a month at Luperon in the DR. Took our time through Puerto Rico, Culebra, U.S. and British Virgin Islands. Roughly 15 months to St. Martin.

This is our 5th year now in the islands. Several times back and forth to the Grenadines and St Martin. Just now arrived in Martinique from the summer in Grenada.

So, to answer the question, yes it can be done safely if you watch the weather, have time and patience. Is it always comfortable, no! The tradewinds and swell tend to be abeam when transiting between the islands down here, and that is not helpful. If you want to move between islands regularly a sailboat is a better choice. The other option is a trawler with stabilizers. Either fins or trawls. We have done the travelling and have been happy staying in our favorite anchorages. Here in Ste Anne are 100+ boats and only 2 of us are trawlers! Think of us as floating condos! Spacious, comfortable, and moveable. But tender!

Can you move in less than desireable weather? Yes, but it will be uncomfortable. You can reduce speed and change course, sometimes crabbing across open water, letting her make a lot of leeway, at a slow speed, drifting towards your destination.

Final comment... I saw a 44ft Defever with stabilizers for sale. A good choice, but she had some other less desireable features and was more expensive. There is a 42 ft trawler with added trawls they said made a great difference, down here. If you can afford a real Passagemaker it is a better choice.

We have been happy with Paradox ll as she has done what we have wanted to do. After 21 years in the islands though, we are ready to move ashore and she is for sale. (Apollo Duck and Yachtworld) Hope our experiences and opinions are of help to anyone wanting this lifestyle.
Click to expand...


This is a great first hand explanation of how the Caribbean can be done on an older TT. I see that question asked often on TF, but it seems very few have actually tried it in a TT (excluding the Krogen 42, but that’s a different boat altogether IMO).

However, I note that Capt Steve seems to be a very experienced Caribbean sailor who knew what to expect, and he outfitted the boat extensively for the journey. That’s a lot different that someone like me casting off to the Caribbean in an old TT.
 
Capt. Steve said:
We have been happy with Paradox ll as she has done what we have wanted to do. After 21 years in the islands though, we are ready to move ashore and she is for sale. (Apollo Duck and Yachtworld) Hope our experiences and opinions are of help to anyone wanting this lifestyle.
Click to expand...

Just to let you know, for some reason, Yachtworld is not permitting reviewing your boat.
 
Very nice boat. As for being tender, if I read the owner’s description correctly, I wonder if that could be related to displacement? I don’t see displacement listed for this craft but other Marine Trader 44s of this era seem to be about 23,000 lbs. That seems a bit light to me for a displacement hull. By comparison, a Defever 44 of similar age is 44,000 lbs dry and I would not describe ours as tender. Not saying one boat is better; just trying to understand the “tender” comment and whether greater displacement would make a difference.
 
angus99 said:
Very nice boat. As for being tender, if I read the owner’s description correctly, I wonder if that could be related to displacement? I don’t see displacement listed for this craft but other Marine Trader 44s of this era seem to be about 23,000 lbs. That seems a bit light to me for a displacement hull. By comparison, a Defever 44 of similar age is 44,000 lbs dry and I would not describe ours as tender. Not saying one boat is better; just trying to understand the “tender” comment and whether greater displacement would make a difference.
Click to expand...

My C&L 44 comes from the same hull. My exhaust ports exit just a above the waterline, as do the exhausts on the Paradox II. My Swimgrid is the same distance above the water. I doubt there is much difference in weight from my 44,000 lb, as reported from the Travellift scales.
 
Ref "Tender" in Paradox ll post

For anyone looking back at this post, Paradox ll did register around 40,000 lbs in the travellift. Note that she was the sundeck model with a substantial "deck" over the sundeck. Also a sturdy Bimini frame and rugged cover with isinglass all around. 4 solar panels and a wind generator up there also. 2 propane bottles and various equipment, lines and spare parts were stowed in the various flybridge compartments. To counter all that high weight were, of course, the twin engines, 2 - 250 gal fuel tanks, generator, 3 starting batteries and a full bank of house batteries for the solar system, numerous tools, engine fluids, a spare anchor and chain, and spare parts. All in the engine compartment. 220 gal of water in 2 tanks were under the aft cabin Bunk. Several hundred lbs of parts were stowed in the main cabin lockers. A small European style washing machine was located at the upper part of the main cabin hatch. The 10 ft inflatable was off the stern hung on a davit and the 15 hp engine laid down on the sundeck for any passages between islands. Certainly other models and configurations, and efforts at lowering the center of gravity would have a different outcome.

The result was a somewhat tender vessel that liked to roll with a sea anywhere on the beam. Full fuel and water tanks were much better than low ones. Cruising along the windward leeward island chain north/south with easterly tradewinds required picking favorable weather days, but was quite doable. Fortunately there are good weather forecasting services available. Going easterly or westerly along the northern or southern Caribbean usually meant wind and seas more on the bow or stern. We never felt unsafe or anxious.

Our pleasure was spending a lot of time at anchorages off the grid without any need to run engines or generators. To that end we could often go 30 days without moving to get water, and without having to start an engine or the generator.

This was a lifestyle preference of two older people, in their 70s, after many years of sailboats. We thoroughly enjoyed it and were very comfortable, on a very liveable boat. Obviously it was a special situation and tailored to our particular desires. I hope this clarifies any questions of the previous posts.
 
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A marine trader is not an open ocean boat.

Look for a Kadey-Krogan 44 or 48 which have a full displacement hull. They are a few dollars more than what you are looking at, but is cheap when the sea and wind kicks up.
 
fgarriso said:
A marine trader is not an open ocean boat.
Click to expand...

Why? It's often said that a boat will take more than it's occupants. How is a Marine Trader not up to the task? What will happen? I met a couple on a Hershine 37 who cruised from California to Florida.

Peter
 
Catamarans, Marine Traders, Ocean Passages

Good idea. There are great, new, cats with Walk-around bunks. Very liveable and comfortable. Cost a lot of money. No relative inexpensive used ones with easily accessible bunks for two persons. Crawl out the end or climb over each other in the middle of the night to use the head. Sails and rigging or a power cat. Just not the space and easy comfort of a trawler. Money will buy you what you require, but if you don't have the money then compromise is necessary.

We are talking Marine Traders and similar coastal trawlers here. They are not built as Ocean going vessels, however some have made Ocean passages. It is not something I would do.

50 years ago I asked an experienced cruising sailor what he thought the best size sailboat was for extended cruising. His answer has always stuck with me. "As large as you can afford." There you have it.

No doubt, for the money, if you are not wealthy, a seaworthy sailboat is the better bet for ocean passages. If you want liveaboard comfort and have unlimited time and patience, making short one or two day passages, you can do that safely with a Marine Trader or similar.
 
Whether or not a Taiwanese Trawler (or any asian built) is ocean capable really depends on the "design" and the "builder".
There are plenty of full displacement, solid fiberglass, asian built trawlers out there that are extremely capable. May not be easy to find, but they exist
 
Marine Traders, many models, builders

You are asking about "Marine Traders" and there are many models, configurations, builders and in various conditions. There is no one answer,

Some came over on their own bottoms from the far east. Some have crossed to Europe.

Find one that looks good, have it competently and thoroughly surveyed. Fit her out for your intended voyage and purpose. Don't go anywhere beyond your competence, experience and capabilities.
 
6-months ago or so, TF members KSanders aboard his Bayliner 4788 and AKDoug aboard his Willard 30 departed Alaska bound for La Paz MX, something like 3500nms away. Neither boat would be considered by many an offshore boat. Know what? They had a great trip mostly day-tripping their way down the coast. BTW - the Pacific Coast, which has few harbors of refuge, is considered a pretty rough stretch of coast. Granted, headed south is the 'right' direction, but still, with a little patience, a very safe passage.

Marine Traders suffer from being 50-year old boats - teak decks leak and rust-out tanks. Windows need re-bedding and leak in heavy spray conditions. But trawler-design has decent hull forms for coastal cruising including open water with an eye towards weather, a good idea anyway especially if you have a spouse you'd like to have join you for the journey.

If there is a weakness on most non-full keel boats for coastal work is risk of picking-up a stray net or hawser. Not probable but possible to tear-out the running gear and sinking the boat in minutes. It's rare, but happens. A Kelly Peterson 44 sailboat was recently hit by a whale crossing the the Marquesas that tore-out the skeg-hung rudder. They spent 10-hours in their liferaft before being picked-up by fellow cruisers. Although my full-keel displacement trawler is well protected, I consider this risk miniscule and not much of a benefit - my point is most trawler-style and larger motoryacht boats can accomplish amazing trips with comfort.

So why buy an expensive boat like a Nordhavn or KK? They are good designs and very well built. Examples including engine room vents are well protected from spray. Fuel fills are embedded in vertical walls instead of deck-fills. Ports, windows, and hatches are well-built and resistant to leaks. Ground tackle is well designed including molded-in wells in the foredeck to channel away much. You get the idea.

Peter
 
Capt. Steve said:
Not a go anywhere. Anytime boat.
Click to expand...
I think a lot of folks who aspire to cruising but haven't yet ventured far haven't quite figured out there are many ways to mitigate risk, and how unlikely encountering even Force 7 conditions are if you respect seasons and possess even a modicum of weather skills. Many seemingly modest boats are well suited.

But if the use-case is to ignore seasons, ignore pilot charts, and ignore weather forecasts, then I suggest your best chance at survival is a barrel adapted for Niagara Falls.

Peter Screenshot_20230320_071807_DuckDuckGo.jpg
 
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