Help! Sea Trial Findings- hard decision to make

[jointcustody]

Hi there,

I recently took out a bayliner 4087 for a sea trial- the seller has recently poured over 200k into it in the last three years. The 6bta engines, transmissions, props etc was all rebuilt or replaced.

We took it for a proper sea trial- WOT, fully exposed engines, laser gun temp readings, 35+ year marine mechanic looking it over. etc. we saw 18-19knots WOT without the trim tabs working, and WOT rpm of roughly 2750 but tachs weren't in awesome condition. 22x21 4 blade props brand new. We really liked the boat, but;
Here were the findings;

Per our mechanic;
Port engine #5 cylinder leaking diesel from injector, smoking fuel on exhaust manifold. Making mess under engine and bilge. Likely o-ring or seal.
--THIS HAS SINCE BEEN FIXED--

Port engine reduction gear output shaft seal leaking tranny oil

Dripless shafts on both need major adjustment and/or likely replacement but… My mechanic believes there may be an alignment issue with the shafts, or bent shafts? But likely alignment given recent engine change. There seems to be a borderline shake to both engines, worse on the port side. Maybe the boat was slung on the shafts by accident? possibly causing the dripless seals to fail prematurely and the output seal on the port engine’s reduction gear to fail. They definitely should not be failing with 250 hours on them, and to have the dripless seals leaking (we know per receipts they were already adjusted before) at only 250 hours, and output seal on transmission failing, it suggests a bigger issue. A warranty repair? Likely needs hauling out.

Trim tabs not working from upper helm, or at all but did not get opportunity to confirm. Really didn’t get to see the boat perform properly because of that.

Questions for the forum;
Do you think that the engines should need realignment after 250 hours of run time? is that common when engines are replaced? Like retorquing the lug nuts on your tires?

I have heard from several different mechanics that these PSS seals are a Pain in the ___. Is this true? but why would the rear output shaft seal also be leaking on the transmission at the same time with only 250 hours?

The seller has agreed to knock $2500 off the purchase price, but if its not alignment and the shafts are bent, could be much more than that. Wasnt able to have shafts checked. Seller is firm at $2500 or will keep boat.

I love the boat otherwise. just hoping we dont get stung with bent shafts- the engines had a very slight shake but I would not say terrible- like a C+ if I was to grade it, almost imperceivable actually and only when up on plane.

Thanks

 

[READY]

Suggestion: Estimate the cost to fix any issues you or the boat cannot live with. Add that to the sales price and decide if you would be comfortable with that deal. If repairs turn out to be a lot less then even better.

It did not sound like a horrible survey and if so much work was completed and assuming it was done properly that should reduce or postpone your future repair/replacement costs.

BTW unless you have deep pockets I doubt you will often run at those speeds. Sounds like it performed fairly well with no overheating or smoking.

 

[SteveK]

Questions for the forum;
Do you think that the engines should need realignment after 250 hours of run time? is that common when engines are replaced? Like retorquing the lug nuts on your tires?

Need it, maybe not. But to replace an engine means it was removed. How hard would it have been to do the alignment on assembly. Yes, I would have wanted to know all was correct.
Some of your thoughts may be correct as well. Sling in wrong place. same or different engine, what about mounts, new or old.

$200K spent, talk about a hole in the water. you know what was done and you suspect what may need to be done. What price will make a sale.

 

[lwarden]

What version of 6BTA? WOT is low for a 370hp and tachs should tested against a digital one on the crank. If it is a 370hp version it should turn over 3K loaded. Look over the color of the compressor side of the turbos, if the paint has gone dark tan, then they may have been overloaded and you should proceed with caution.

The PSS are indeed a pain, but they just may need adjustment or new bellows. I have one on my port side that likes to leak, and this is after bellows replacement and countless adjustments to the engine alignment, checking the prop and shaft for straightness, etc. They just kind of suck for higher shaft speeds IMO. So, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on them leaking. The shafts and seals should be monitored under way to see if there is excessive runout which could explain the vibration and leaks. If there is excessive runout then it could be bent shaft, or engine out of alignment to some extent. Vibration could be many things, including serious engine issues, a fouled injector, prop imbalance, etc. Too many possibilities here.

The leaking output seal shouldn't be a major issue and can likely be replaced in the boat if there is good access and depending on the model.

In any case, I would want to have the mechanic look at the running gear underway (I'm surprised he didn't).

$2,500 isn't going to get you very far sorting all this out so it all depends on how much you are willing to risk the unknowns...

 

[tiltrider1]

I am going only by your statements. Red flag, engines and transmissions rebuilt for $200k and things are still not right. Seller has dumped money he can’t recoup but is willing to walk away!

A 4087 is not old enough to need this kind of work. Was it a sinking? A grounding shouldn’t have toasted the engines. If you have given me accurate facts then I am running away.

Is the boat for sale for half price of market?

Your mechanic appears to be scratching his head about possible engine alignment/bent shaft but has it occurred to anyone to check the strut for proper positioning? Again, this boat sounds like there is a possible major problem.

I would start quizzing the broker on why so much work has been done and why the boat is still in need of so much work

If you are looking for a DIY project maybe you can get it cheap. If you are looking to buy a boat for boating I would probably pass on this boat.

 

[RedRascal]

The output shaft leak is a bit of a red flag for me. If it was repaired properly it shouldn't leak. So maybe the seal was damaged during a rebuild which may or may not speak to the quality of rebuild. Was this a slap it together rebuild or just an honest mistake. Okay let's say it was assembled correctly but now is failing. That tells me something is out of spec and wore out the seal. So were things checked for in or out of spec with the rebuild or was slapping a new seal on just a quick short term fix to an oil leak when the root cause is a bigger issue.

Here is one in my neck of the woods for $99k(USD) 1997 Bayliner 4087 Cockpit Diesel Motor Yacht 41.5' - boats - by owner - marine sale - craigslist I scratch my head with $200k going into a $100k boat. It seems like the boat has had some major problems to require $200k of work regardless of it being USD or CAD dollars. I'd be cautious about moving forward on it, you may not be seeing all the short cuts that were taken with the rebuild.

 

[mvweebles]

I am going only by your statements. Red flag, engines and transmissions rebuilt for $200k and things are still not right. .......

I have to agree here. Sounds like owner has gotten caught in a spiral of costs and hasn't found bottom yet.

Boat failed sea trial. Extent of repairs is unknown and could be costly (likely). In this market it's much easier to buy a boat than sell one. Objectively, consider politely withdrawing your offer (I know, you really like the boat which tosses objectivity). This places a ton of pressure on the owner to complete repairs or face an unsellable boat.

The seller has offered a $2500 credit. Doesn't even buy two days of time for a solid mechanic let alone gets the boat out of the water and in a yard. In effect, the seller is asking you to increase your offer and accept the risk to complete repairs he started. My strong recommendation is not to accept the financial risk. Imagine what will go through sellers mind for future sales - behooves him to get this right for you now.

Good luck. Sorry it didn't go better. Very disappointing.

Peter

 

[O C Diver]

As far as the transmission leak, it will depend on the manufacturer and model. Some (such as a ZF gear) require the case to be opened (into two halfs) to replace the seal. It's not like an automotive transmission where you pull the old one out and tap in a new one. I would want an estimate based on the make and model.

I've had two boats with PSS seals. I installed them and serviced each based on years in service. Like anything else, if you can't do it yourself, find a competent yard.

Typically with a boat sitting in the water, a competent mechanic can loosen the propeller shaft flange from the transmission flange and measure with feeler gauges whether the shaft is in alignment with the engine.

I would want to know what will likely be required and the estimated cost before going forward. It seems to me that he may have invested the money, but his choice of boatyards with competent mechanics wasn't good.

Ted

 

[jointcustody]

Thank you for all your input. Much appreciated. We pick the boat up tomorrow and we are confident the shafts are fine and can adjust/ clean dripless shaft seals to remove the leaks.

We had two other mechanics take a look at it and they do not think shafts are bent. Also had a diver check the condition of the bottom/shafts/ props and all appeared in good condition.

The engines were 250 hp 6bta's but when rebuilt had heavier camshafts put in and the mechanic believes them to be around 280 hp now. 2600 WOT rpm, so we think it is underpropped by an acceptable amount for these engines, but appreciate your input on that- we found them to hit 2750rpm. This was with full fuel tanks and the ab dinghy hanging off the back. Clean bottom

 

[mvweebles]

Congratulations! Please post pictures with smiles.

Peter

 

[lwarden]

Good deal, sounds like you have a good platform to work with. Keep us posted on the progress and have fun with your new toy!

 

[twistedtree]

Keep us posted on how repairs go. Hopefully all can be easily corrected.

 

[Comodave]

In a well built boat an aluminum tank, if properly installed, should go more than 20 years. I would carefully inspect the tank(s) and see how they are installed and if any corrosion is visible. Also look at where they are installed and see how the tank can be removed and a new one installed just in case. If the tank is buried then that can be a concern. But generally diesel tanks can be cut up in place to get it out and maybe several snaller tanks installed. It will still be pricey but doable.

 

[rslifkin]

In a well built boat an aluminum tank, if properly installed, should go more than 20 years. I would carefully inspect the tank(s) and see how they are installed and if any corrosion is visible. Also look at where they are installed and see how the tank can be removed and a new one installed just in case. If the tank is buried then that can be a concern. But generally diesel tanks can be cut up in place to get it out and maybe several snaller tanks installed. It will still be pricey but doable.

If you're thinking fuel tanks, a well built and installed aluminum tank that's kept dry (inside and out) should last a lot more than 20 years. Mine are still in good condition after 38 years. They're mounted on wood slats with rubber strips on top so they get air circulation under the tanks to avoid corrosion from a buildup of condensation and they're well away from bilge water and have nothing that can drip on top of them either.

 

[DavidM]

Maybe this was suggested above (I didn’t read it all), check the shafts for straightness with a dial indicator. If Ok then the $2,500 price adjustment should cover all the rest except for wot rpm’s.

Calibrate the tach with a photo tach and make any adjustments. If that is made then a 6BT should hit 2,800 and the 6BTA should hit 3,000. If not, squeeze another couple grand out of the seller to cover repitching to make these numbers.

David

 

[ksanders]

Congrats on the new Bayliner!