Have boat manufacturers gone NUTS ?

[BandB]

Why do people rag on power-boaters? Realistically, I wouldn’t be surprised if one oil fired power plant puts out the same amount of pollution as the entire earth’s recreational boats.

Perhaps someone here has hard statistics to show the impact that boats have on the environment.

I fully admit to a negative impact on the environment with my boating. However, I also have done a tremendous amount of reduction of pollutants and energy conservation in my businesses. We all have areas in which we do more than in other areas. However, our businesses use about 30% as much energy as they would have 10 years ago. Our home uses less than half the electricity it used under the previous owners. We recycle huge amounts of cardboard, but also all the water bottles used by us and our employees and we transport all of our goods in reusable containers all made from recycled plastics and recyclable themselves.

However, we do use a lot of diesel fuel on our boats. It's fine if one wants to call us selfish in seeking our own gratification. We're not perfect, but I'm comfortable with the balance we've achieved. We're always open to the future with similar performance from better energy forms.

 

[boatpoker]

Recently spent a week on the Colorado River at Parker, California and watched dozens of supposedly go-fasts scream up and down the 6-7 miles stretch.
Wanna go fast, fine but for gods sake buy some freakin mufflers.

 

[Woodland Hills]

I worked out at the engine test site between Parker and Quartzite for a year and had a place on the Parker Strip. That’s where I bought my first trailer boat: a Bayliner with a Force outboard. We were doing power and fuel qualifications on the Pratt&Whitney engines for the C-17. The test site was built by Rolls Royce to certify the RB 211 for the 747.

It was quite a party town back then!

 

[boatpoker]

I worked out at the engine test site between Parker and Quartzite for a year and had a place on the Parker Strip. That’s where I bought my first trailer boat: a Bayliner with a Force outboard. We were doing power and fuel qualifications on the Pratt&Whitney engines for the C-17. The test site was built by Rolls Royce to certify the RB 211 for the 747.

It was quite a party town back then!

After a long career designing ships screws in Scotland and England my Dad ended his career designing turbine blades for Pratt & Whitney.

 

[localboy]

I presume that’s sarcasm. That’s ok, my conscience is relatively clear because of those things. I just don’t like wasteful people. I think they’re trash.

Careful... the air is thin up there, on your high horse. One could pass out and fall...

 

[Beaverlake]

I presume that’s sarcasm. That’s ok, my conscience is relatively clear because of those things. I just don’t like wasteful people. I think they’re trash.

At the risk of feeding...

So which boat do you have, the C&C sailboat or the Bluewater 40 as indicated in your profile? Or both?

How do you define wasteful people? Do you have enough insight into the lives of others that supports any generalizations you might make about who or what is wasteful? I think I resent the potential for being “trash” if I don’t meet your criteria for being non-wasteful. (As if I really care about your hyperbolic generalization and opinion.). Am I just another in the basket of deplorables whose presence you have to somehow tolerate? Puh-lease.

My turn - you list Seattle as your home port. ‘Nuff said if generalizations are acceptable.

Back to the OPs point - just what the Hell is driving the design and propulsion systems of new boats? I’m at a loss. In the PacNW speed is dicey given the constant threat of deadheads etc and the risk of colliding with said floating hazards. Outboards have certainly increased in efficiency and using them frees up space that could result in smaller boats packing a big punch. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be the case with the possible exception of some of the newer Aspen, Ranger, and similar PacNW boats.

Bottom line for me Mr/Ms KingBuffalo is you should focus your judgemental comments about personal behavior on the editorial page of The Seattle Times or your Facebook account. This thread and this forum is about slow boating.

 

[KingBuffalo]

Some of you need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills. I am being misrepresented even though my post about which you are so angry is pasted just above and on the same post as your angry and guilty rants that misrepresent me. Surely the folks that take offense to my saying wasteful people are trash are the same people of whom I speak. Do any of you have the confidence to give me a reasonable explanation of why my comment about wasteful trash is incorrect? Maybe the word that I used to describe them the thorn. Is being wasteful and careless destroyer of the environment a desirable or forgivable attribute to some of you?
To BandB specifically, just curious here, are your reduced energy usage figures a product of using taxpayer subsidized solar power? Kudos to you for doing it, but if it was paid for by taxpayers I’m not so sure that it’s gloatworthy. And seriously, plastic bottles? You’re bragging about using plastic bottles and recycling them? Really? Being a responsible person in one area doesn’t give you slack to be wasteful in another. If you aren’t trying to conserve in every aspect of life then you should rethink your approach.
And to beaverlake, my definition of a wasteful person is one who uses much more than that person needs. I didn’t think that definition would be necessary, but there it is. It’s very simple. I don’t need to know anything about a person other than how they’re behaving to make that judgement. If you have a family of four, you don’t need a 60 foot pleasure yacht that uses 50 gallons per hour on step. That’s wasteful. You don’t need a 10,000 square foot house that needs to be fed energy and resources. That’s wasteful. You don’t need a car with 600 hp because... can you guess? It’s wasteful. Why is it even necessary for me to explain this? I guess common sense isn’t so common, as the saying goes.
We only have this one planet to work with and the petty fancies of a lot of people are helping to ruin it. I didn’t anticipate the venom with which some of you responded. It certainly is telling.
BTW, I have a C&C 38 sailboat (30 hp) and a Bluewater Pilothouse trawler (130 combined hp)The sailboat will be sold or rented out when I move onto the trawler, but in the meantime I have both. Let the flaming begin.

 

[BruceK]

 

[Beaverlake]

No flaming necessary. Nor worthwhile. Enjoy the Salish Sea and what is clearly a love of what attracts us all to the water. Now if we can get back to the OPs original question and opining about what drives current boat design . . .

 

[KingBuffalo]

Yes. Please.

 

[BandB]

Some of you need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills. I am being misrepresented even though my post about which you are so angry is pasted just above and on the same post as your angry and guilty rants that misrepresent me. Surely the folks that take offense to my saying wasteful people are trash are the same people of whom I speak. Do any of you have the confidence to give me a reasonable explanation of why my comment about wasteful trash is incorrect? Maybe the word that I used to describe them the thorn. Is being wasteful and careless destroyer of the environment a desirable or forgivable attribute to some of you?

I take offense to your derogatory judgment and I take it personally. However, frankly my dear, I don't give a darn what you think.

To BandB specifically, just curious here, are your reduced energy usage figures a product of using taxpayer subsidized solar power? Kudos to you for doing it, but if it was paid for by taxpayers I’m not so sure that it’s gloatworthy. And seriously, plastic bottles? You’re bragging about using plastic bottles and recycling them? Really? Being a responsible person in one area doesn’t give you slack to be wasteful in another. If you aren’t trying to conserve in every aspect of life then you should rethink your approach.
And to beaverlake, my definition of a wasteful person is one who uses much more than that person needs.

What insulting self aggrandizing judging of others, and so ignorant in so doing. No, none of our savings are government subsidized in any way. Further we don't have solar because for our purposes it's saving just isn't there and we can accomplish similar by purchasing renewable energy through FPL. You don't dare tell me what I need to do with my approach to my life and by your definition then you are horribly wasteful. You don't need a boat. You definitely don't need two boats. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander. As to plastic bottles, it again shows your ignorance on a subject you judge. I drink 99% nothing but water and the tab water in our area and much of nearby areas isn't fit for that level of consumption, if any consumption. The bottles are recycled plastic to start with and 100% recyclable. Tell me how many things you use meet that level? Do you get paper or plastic or styrofoam cups and trays when out and just toss them in the trash? We went to special effort to recycle our bottles. We have separate containers and use a separate waste handler. I'm not going to drink local water as I drink 8 glasses or more per day and so does my wife and so do other members of our family and employees. We encourage water drinking versus other drinks like soda and heavy sugar juices.

I didn’t think that definition would be necessary, but there it is. It’s very simple. I don’t need to know anything about a person other than how they’re behaving to make that judgement. If you have a family of four, you don’t need a 60 foot pleasure yacht that uses 50 gallons per hour on step. That’s wasteful. You don’t need a 10,000 square foot house that needs to be fed energy and resources. That’s wasteful. You don’t need a car with 600 hp because... can you guess? It’s wasteful. Why is it even necessary for me to explain this? I guess common sense isn’t so common, as the saying goes.
We only have this one planet to work with and the petty fancies of a lot of people are helping to ruin it. I didn’t anticipate the venom with which some of you responded. It certainly is telling.
BTW, I have a C&C 38 sailboat (30 hp) and a Bluewater Pilothouse trawler (130 combined hp)The sailboat will be sold or rented out when I move onto the trawler, but in the meantime I have both. Let the flaming begin.

I'll guarantee you your house or boat is bigger than needed, your cars have more power than needed and two boats are not needed, not even one is.

I have boats that use far more than 50 gallons an hour at cruise. My right and, if you don't like it, go pass a law banning it. But that's part of my recreation and my wife and I deserve our pleasure. Our house surely is a size you are so offended by but I'll put our energy usage against others. It's less by far than we used in a 2 story, 2400 sq ft home in NC. Yes, our cars are wasteful. Even having cars we average 4000 miles a year in is. When we retired we rewarded ourselves. Both of us have cars in the hp range you mention. Both now almost 8 years old and in pristine condition.

If you think you can call people trash and you don't anticipate venom, then you're far less intelligent than I figured you were.

As far as ruining the planet, even getting out on the water in a boat is negative. However, I started looking at the environment and taking conservation and protecting it seriously when I was very young and I've done so since and I'm proud of what I've done and not going to be shamed by you or anyone else.

Now, I hope throughout the Covid 19 crisis and the approaching depression you're going to feel as passionate about helping your fellow man as you are about the environment. If so, I applaud you. Just curious.....in your opinion, was it wasteful for us to pay all the people we did today for not working? Don't answer please. This isn't about who is better or who does what, it's only about calling others trash because they don't do things as you think they should.

 

[smitty477]

Some of you need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills. I am being misrepresented even though my post about which you are so angry is pasted just above and on the same post as your angry and guilty rants that misrepresent me. Surely the folks that take offense to my saying wasteful people are trash are the same people of whom I speak. Do any of you have the confidence to give me a reasonable explanation of why my comment about wasteful trash is incorrect? Maybe the word that I used to describe them the thorn. Is being wasteful and careless destroyer of the environment a desirable or forgivable attribute to some of you?
To BandB specifically, just curious here, are your reduced energy usage figures a product of using taxpayer subsidized solar power? Kudos to you for doing it, but if it was paid for by taxpayers I’m not so sure that it’s gloatworthy. And seriously, plastic bottles? You’re bragging about using plastic bottles and recycling them? Really? Being a responsible person in one area doesn’t give you slack to be wasteful in another. If you aren’t trying to conserve in every aspect of life then you should rethink your approach.
And to beaverlake, my definition of a wasteful person is one who uses much more than that person needs. I didn’t think that definition would be necessary, but there it is. It’s very simple. I don’t need to know anything about a person other than how they’re behaving to make that judgement. If you have a family of four, you don’t need a 60 foot pleasure yacht that uses 50 gallons per hour on step. That’s wasteful. You don’t need a 10,000 square foot house that needs to be fed energy and resources. That’s wasteful. You don’t need a car with 600 hp because... can you guess? It’s wasteful. Why is it even necessary for me to explain this? I guess common sense isn’t so common, as the saying goes.
We only have this one planet to work with and the petty fancies of a lot of people are helping to ruin it. I didn’t anticipate the venom with which some of you responded. It certainly is telling.
BTW, I have a C&C 38 sailboat (30 hp) and a Bluewater Pilothouse trawler (130 combined hp)The sailboat will be sold or rented out when I move onto the trawler, but in the meantime I have both. Let the flaming begin.

"Surely the folks that take offense to my saying wasteful people are trash are the same people of whom I speak."
You have made a number of personal judgements and jumped to a number of conclusions with little information.

"Some of you need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills"
Rather then make another snap judgement perhaps reread the posts for facts that were presented rather than what you assumed and/or wanted tp hear.

"It’s very simple. I don’t need to know anything about a person other than how they’re behaving to make that judgement"
Rather crystal clear here … I would reassess that a bit.

 

[FF]

Our free market society demands that folks have different opinions of their self worth.


Otherwise we would all have Yugos instead of Porsches, Rolls and pedal bikes.

 

[sunchaser]

Life is frustrating for those that know the world has a virtually unlimited supply of cost effective fossil fuels. It is even more frustrating for those that know earth's CO2 levels naturally vary by 3 to 4 fold with today's levels at the near 300 million year low point.

A better and more logical position IMHO would include lower NOXs, lower PM 10s, less diesel soot, cleaner inshore waters, a return to nuclear power and improved CO2 sequestering.

This is sure a more fun topic than disease and viruses, which man has seemingly little control over and has proven to be the mightiest of bugaboos eternally facing human kind.

 

[skipperguy]

speed

[emoji106]just think what some think about going 2-5kn and only if/when the wind blows????

my best friend is a blow-boater (sailor) and jokes about "trawler races".
i would never criticize a go-boat owner but i treasure "time on the water" and at 10 kts, i get a boatload !

 

[Captain Max]

Reality

Addressed to KING BUFFALO: As much as I personally like to use the tortoise as an example of how to live a long life, by not moving far from home, if one looks up in the sky you see these things called airplanes. If you use the ap Flightradar24 you can see them in real time, and as much as flights are down from last week- LOOK how many are up there right now.
If one is concerned about their carbon footprint on the world from their personal lifestyle choices, I recommend you commit suicide in the hog trough, because in reality no matter how many big boats, fast cars, you own- in your WHOLE life you will not burn as much fuel as just the jets waiting to take off from JFK in just in any given hour. I’m not talking the actual flights to their worldwide destinations, I mean just the moving up a couple hundred feet, running their generator, waiting to take off. Out both sides of the windows as far back as you can see, there’s jumbo jets creeping up-for hours. Then the throttles are hammered.
Then imagine Heathrow, LAX, Ohara, Beijing, Calcutta, Sydney, Capetown, Rome.
So relax fool. Smoke another joint or whatever you hippies do now, we’re all just on a spinning rock hurdling through space into the unknown. You know dust in the wind.

Speaking of planes. Right now there’s a LOT of private jets in the air all heading to South Florida from NY.

 

[KingBuffalo]

Damn, bandb, you are exactly the type of person I was talking about, and you have exactly the mentality that goes with being that way. You reinforced my suspicions beautifully. You got me dead wrong though. Is it really that hard for you to imagine somebody not being as selfish as yourself? Reading comprehension; it’s important. Just saying...

 

[BandB]

Damn, bandb, you are exactly the type of person I was talking about, and you have exactly the mentality that goes with being that way. You reinforced my suspicions beautifully. You got me dead wrong though. Is it really that hard for you to imagine somebody not being as selfish as yourself? Reading comprehension; it’s important. Just saying...

Wifey B: Yes, we're so selfish. That's us. You got it. That's why we're paying all our employees who aren't working. That's why we have our own foundation, have a school we fund, have an orphanage we fund. And here is what I say to you. You can go to and can Meanwhile I'm out cruising today but in a slow boat, only 20 knots, only 100 gph although right now just puttering along looking at all around us and 11 knots, 27 gph.

Thank god you find us to be trash. I'd really be worried if you had a better opinion of us. No, none of us have you wrong. What's the word I'm looking for......oh rhymes with this.

 

[KingBuffalo]

Still no explanation of why I’m wrong when I say that wasteful people are trash. Just weak justification based on perceived benevolence.

 

[hollywood8118]

Still no explanation of why I’m wrong when I say that wasteful people are trash. Just weak justification based on perceived benevolence.

Because its YOUR opinion.


Your wrong to think everybody needs to agree with you.


What you want only matters to you, or like minded individuals.. and there are few of those types here.


Go to a hybrid or EV forum and rant away about us evil powerboaters..


Just dont come here and piss in our pool and expect us to just sit around and like it
HOLLYWOOD

 

[JLD]

Still no explanation of why I’m wrong when I say that wasteful people are trash. Just weak justification based on perceived benevolence.

My retirement boat may end up being a sailboat. I understand and even agree with a few of your lifestyle choices.

However, it seems that you are just making insulting comments that are intended to get a rise out of folks.

Respectfully, you are acting like a dick!

Jim

 

[KingBuffalo]

I made a comment about a certain type of person. It wasn’t aimed at anyone in particular. Some if you were offended by it. If the shoe fits, as they say. But since so many are offended by my remarks, I’ll pose this question in a different way: Can any of you give me ANY reasonable justification for using way more than you need? I’m not trolling, this is a legitimate question.

 

[KingBuffalo]

BTW, “I deserve it” is not a reasonable justification. Nobody deserves it.

 

[Beaverlake]

So Since KingBuffalo lays claim to being from Seattle maybe this is the best characterization (Fremont Bridge Troll for non-locals) given his/her inclination to stir the pot:



If, however, KBs comments are genuine they reflect a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, condescending, politically correct attitude so typical of Seattle cancel-culture progressives. In that case then this might be more appropriate:


Sorry mods - couldn’t resist

In any case - can we please get back to the “chicken or egg” question? Given both styling and power train choices being made by so many builders and the costs of a new boat in the, say, 36 foot+ range traditional designs must have fallen out of favor. So did buyers demand something different or did builders decide they needed to shake up the market?

Trends I have appreciated are improved galleys, storage, and visibility in many of the new designs. And there are boats like Greenline that in the 33-39 foot range could easily manage our PacNW daily cruise range under electric power alone (e.g., under 16nm). If we had the $ for a brand new boat I could answer the OPs question very positively with Greenline (design being a personal preference decision).

 

[KingBuffalo]

There’s nothing political about what I’m saying. If there’s an argument against it I’d like to hear it. So far, after me asking three times, there has been no answer.

 

[Woodland Hills]

So Since KingBuffalo lays claim to being from Seattle maybe this is the best characterization (Fremont Bridge Troll for non-locals) given his/her inclination to stir the pot:

View attachment 100554

If, however, KBs comments are genuine they reflect a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, condescending, politically correct attitude so typical of Seattle cancel-culture progressives. In that case then this might be more appropriate:

View attachment 100555
Sorry mods - couldn’t resist

In any case - can we please get back to the “chicken or egg” question? Given both styling and power train choices being made by so many builders and the costs of a new boat in the, say, 36 foot+ range traditional designs must have fallen out of favor. So did buyers demand something different or did builders decide they needed to shake up the market?

Trends I have appreciated are improved galleys, storage, and visibility in many of the new designs. And there are boats like Greenline that in the 33-39 foot range could easily manage our PacNW daily cruise range under electric power alone (e.g., under 16nm). If we had the $ for a brand new boat I could answer the OPs question very positively with Greenline (design being a personal preference decision).

To answer your boating question: styles change and what the old people liked is not what the young people like. The same thing will happen when they are old. As long as the olds are buying new stuff then the market will supply what it takes to get their money. But as soon as they slow their spending and a young generation begins to replace them in the market then old styles morph into new styles. You see it in in clothing in much faster cycles, cars in slower but still fast cycles and in boats and homes in slower cycles.

 

[Insequent]

Life is frustrating for those that know the world has a virtually unlimited supply of cost effective fossil fuels. It is even more frustrating for those that know earth's CO2 levels naturally vary by 3 to 4 fold with today's levels at the near 300 million year low point.

A better and more logical position IMHO would include lower NOXs, lower PM 10s, less diesel soot, cleaner inshore waters, a return to nuclear power and improved CO2 sequestering.

This is sure a more fun topic than disease and viruses, which man has seemingly little control over and has proven to be the mightiest of bugaboos eternally facing human kind.

A pity that truth is stranger than fiction. It just doesn't get the same attention.

 

[psneeld]

Having been though several military survival schools....we are all using more than we need.

If there is an upper limit of luxuries we dont need....is there a lower limit we should attain?

And if we dont .....are we all trash still?

 

[smitty477]

Still no explanation of why I’m wrong when I say that wasteful people are trash. Just weak justification based on perceived benevolence.

Your posts are very unclear.
Please post exactly what 'wasteful' is , exactly what 'selfish' is.
Use clear metrics and also use clear categories.
How much of XXX (gals, BTU's , food, etc) and per what (person, household, etc).

Please let us see how you would view the world.

 

[smitty477]

I made a comment about a certain type of person. It wasn’t aimed at anyone in particular. Some if you were offended by it. If the shoe fits, as they say. But since so many are offended by my remarks, I’ll pose this question in a different way: Can any of you give me ANY reasonable justification for using way more than you need? I’m not trolling, this is a legitimate question.

"It wasn’t aimed at anyone in particular."
false - one was aimed at my post.

"If the shoe fits, as they say."
You also posted you do not need to know anything about the person to say that.

"Can any of you give me ANY reasonable justification for using way more than you need?"
Your posts are very unclear.
Please post exactly what 'wasteful' is , exactly what 'selfish' is.
Use clear metrics and also use clear categories.
How much of XXX (gals, BTU's , food, etc) and per what (person, household, etc).

Please let us see how you would view the world.