Generator is Gone

[OldDan1943]

Jeff F,
How many and what kind of batteries do you have to support your 2500 Watt inverter?
We both know without battery support, your inverter means nothing

 

[Jeff F]

Jeff F,
How many and what kind of batteries do you have to support your 2500 Watt inverter?
We both know without battery support, your inverter means nothing

I draw a distinction between being underway and anchored, and generally spend a lot of time underway.

My housebattery bank is 660ah @12v. Six golf cart LA batteries.

Underway i can use the inverter as much as I want in practice. Not continuously @2500w, but for a duty cycle like cooking the batteries make up any deficit and are recharged when the load is reduced. This doesn't require a big battery bank, given the generating capacity I have.

At anchor the house bank is good for a 3 kw discharge when fully charged. So inverter use is obviously constrained. In my case the solar covers my non-cooking needs, and I've got a couple of hours worth of microwave or stove use from the batteries before getting underway again.

This isn't going to work for extended life aboard at anchor, but if that becomes a goal for me I'll add more solar capacity before substantially bulking up on batteries.

 

[caltexflanc]

And now for something completely different... While the following is perhaps the world's ugliest website, these guys do really good work, and extremely high quality products, which I have seen first hand a few times. They were very helpful as I was contemplating putting an additional alternator on one of my Detroits to provide 24v charging to the thruster and inverter banks. I was always fascinated by the DC generator idea.

ZRD - High Output and Dual Alternators
ZRD Electric Designer OEM - Your Source for 24-Hour Power, DC Generator, Alt, ...

 

[mvweebles]

On topic of dual alternators - attached is diagram from Balmar on combining two alternators on same engine (they must be driven by same engine due to RPM). Best is a Balmar Duo regulator with two leads, but I have a MC-614 and it's acceptable to split the lead into two with one leg to each alternator.

I have a Balmar 70A and a 150A alternator. I could have run the smaller one to engine bank and the larger to the house bank. Instead, I combined the output to the house bank with a Blue Sea ACR between it and the engine start battery. Why? Let's say I was using an 1800W hotplate - that's around 125A @14.4 VDC. If the 150A Balmar were solo, it would be running at 85%. Combined, they run at 55% and heat is distributed across two alternators.

Peter

 

[Turtle Blues]

You have diesel already so my 2 cents worth is look at a well insulated marine generator. I see a number of smaller gas cruisers installing a diesel tank and genset for reliability and noise reduction.
My start sequence is Generator, Port Engine, Starboard Engiine. Whenever I start calculating the actual hours of crusing and use and all the secondary systems, multiple ac units, galley use etc. I know that the diesel genset is the most long term cost effective power. Not inexpensive, just plenty of it when you want it.

 

[Sharkey]

Consider this portable inverter generator also
Generac gp3000i, 3KW and less money than the Honda 2000. I use one to power an 18,000 BTU AC on a boat, and when necessary I use it to power the AC unit in my travel trailer. It weighs just a little more than the Honda 2000.

 

[Sharpseadog]

Below are my recommendations based upon NO science at all, just my gut feelings and experience.

Buy and install a new generator, returning the electrical system to 'normal'.
IF you use A/C you will need a generator.
Buy and install a larger alternator.
Buy and install a larger charger.
Buy and install a larger inverter separate from the charger. One craps out, you still want the other to work.
Buy and install a fuel cell system to recharge the batteries if you insist on running without a generator and charger.
You will not be able to use the A/C nor much of a heater without a generator.

If you have a 1200 watt microwave, you will suck down the batteries quickly (less than a minute) while on the inverter.

Put a separate AMP meter in the galley so you can pick and choose what to run w/o tripping the breakers. Since I put in the AMP meter in my galley, I have tripped the breaker one time, when I forgot I was using the washer. SMIRK

Hot water heater is the first thing I shut off while cooking (watching the amp meter). Check and see if your main engine will heat the water while underway.

Solar power .... as much as you can do.

Question: No one ever told you to replace all the batteries at one time? Especially of you intend to parallel them?

Excellent advice. Spend more than a day on the hook and a generator to run electric hot water heater and recharge batteries is a must. I have a NextGen 3.5 kw generator, a 3500 watt charger/inverter, a 165 Amp auxiliary alternator with an external smart regulator. My house battery bank is 4 group 32 AGM's. Works very well for me. The NextGen is quiet even without enclosure. And it was priced much less than competition. Has a 12 Hp Kubota engine. You don't want to be running you main engine for long with very light loads. ??

 

[Lollygag1]

Generac also has a 2500 which weighs the same as the Honda at 1/2 the price and got good reviews. It will also store nicely under the dinette.

Think I am going to try this out, really just need for battery recharge, coffee and micro in the morning. We have propane stove so we are good.

 

[rslifkin]

It will also store nicely under the dinette.

Whatever you do, DO NOT store a portable gas generator anywhere within the hull volume. That means not in the cabin, not in the lazarette, etc. Only if you've got a locker with vents / drains at the bottom like a propane locker and it's sealed off from the rest of the boat. You do not want the thing to potentially leak gas fumes into the bilge.

 

[OldDan1943]

Generac also has a 2500 which weighs the same as the Honda at 1/2 the price and got good reviews. It will also store nicely under the dinette.

Think I am going to try this out, really just need for battery recharge, coffee and micro in the morning. We have propane stove so we are good.

Propane stove?? Use either a percolator or heat water for a "french press" one or two cup coffee maker.

 

[Lollygag1]

Good point, we rarely use the stove. Mostly grill which is my preferred method of cooking.

 

[jeremy.st]

Hi Greg,

There was a video from Pacific Yacht Systems that discussed his use of solar and an EFOY fuel cell on his boat in the PNW. Basically solar to charge in the summer and EFOY in the off season.

https://youtu.be/QjmuiQ6eVI0?t=120

He also estimates in the PNW in the summer you will get approximately 25 Ah of out of 100 watts of solar.

https://youtu.be/6fuc0Z2CL1A

I think solar and no genset will work for but plan for the off-season and smoky or cloudy days in the summer. The off-season when you need heat will be the most challenging if you anchor for more than a day.

 

[FlyWright]

I added a Honda 2000 to my genset-less boat many years ago. I store it and its gasoline on the well-vented FB, never the laz or ER. I run it secured and vibration isolated on the FB and it's done very well.

Stbd engine has a Balmar 120A to house bank and port engine a 60A alternator to start battery. House bank is 6xGC Lead Acid for 660AH and start is a Group 31. I use a Yandina 160A Combiner to share the 55A shore charger or solar house bank charge with the start battery as needed.

Added 400W of solar last summer that can deliver up to 20A on a sunny day and about 100-130AH per day. It doesn't eliminate the need for the Honda but cuts its use down to dinner cooking (when using electric) and hot water heating only. Boat has propane but I don't trust my old oven so I don't use it. I use a propane grill in the cockpit. I also have a small 1000W inverter to power my 2nd fridge and microwave or electric skillet.

Hot water from 110V or stbd engine or a new solar shower bag I decided to try next summer for kicks.

I like having options but to make it work, it's a constant "30 amp dance" to stay within limits and and to best utilize what's available.

All lighting is LED and no AC onboard or needed. The solar's mounted and adjustable on the fwd rails.

 

[skipgundlach]

For a while, a few years back, the little Hondas were pretty popular. They run pretty quiet until you have to listen to one for a few hours, especially on a neighbors boat at anchor.

I guess they are OK for an emergency but your neighbors will not like them.

pete

Among full time cruisers I know, they dominate by orders of magnitude.

I had to replace mine recently; apparently the new EU2200i has a different exhaust system, as mine purrs by comparison to my relatively low hours prior 2000...

 

[skipgundlach]

Two solar panels will give you over 150 AH @ 12v per day - the equivalent of adding two batteries into your system.

clip...

Peter

I wanna know which two panels you got and where you're located.

I have 2x360 SunPower panels (nominal efficiency in the mid-20s) on my arch, and am in relatively tropical (27N) waters.

There are times when I get over 25A.

But I've probably (dunno for absolute certainty as I only recently upgraded to a recording solar controller) only had 150AH in a day in full sun in summer in the Bahamas. This from a system which hypothetically could make 60A...

But in the winter, my Honda (I took out my genset, for similar reasons, and also my AC, the only reason for having it) gets a lot of work, keeping my 12V 870AH 4xL16H-AC Trojan FLAs happy). It's running right now...

Just in case you wondered, I *have* (on one occasion, only, though I don't sit and watch the meter full time; see above about recording controllers) seen 50A for a few minutes one day in the early spring when brand new...

So, what system do you have which reliably delivers 150AH from two panels?

Pictures: Flying Pig 2015-2018 Shake-and-Break-Down/Electrical Upgrade

 

[catalinajack]

Eight golf cart batteries in one single bank serving as both house and start batteries fed by two 100 amp Balmar alternators tamed by a Balmar Centerfielder. Generators? Two, a 12.5kw and a 7.7kw. No shortage of juice on this boat. Load balancing rarely required, in fact, never now that I think about it.

 

[rslifkin]

I wanna know which two panels you got and where you're located.

I have 2x360 SunPower panels (nominal efficiency in the mid-20s) on my arch, and am in relatively tropical (27N) waters.

There are times when I get over 25A.

But I've probably (dunno for absolute certainty as I only recently upgraded to a recording solar controller) only had 150AH in a day in full sun in summer in the Bahamas. This from a system which hypothetically could make 60A...

But in the winter, my Honda (I took out my genset, for similar reasons, and also my AC, the only reason for having it) gets a lot of work, keeping my 12V 870AH 4xL16H-AC Trojan FLAs happy). It's running right now...

Just in case you wondered, I *have* (on one occasion, only, though I don't sit and watch the meter full time; see above about recording controllers) seen 50A for a few minutes one day in the early spring when brand new...

So, what system do you have which reliably delivers 150AH from two panels?

Pictures: Flying Pig 2015-2018 Shake-and-Break-Down/Electrical Upgrade

If you're getting that little power out of 720 watts of panels, then either your batteries aren't low enough (and you're not drawing enough other power) to actually see full output from the system, or the panels are getting shaded at times, or the solar controller you're using just sucks. I'd expect 200ah (at 12 volts) out of that setup on a good, sunny day, assuming there's somewhere for that much power to go.

 

[skipgundlach]

I just had a look (in Vero Beach FL, home of the daily thunderstorm), and I had, in the last week, two days with 128 and 158, respectively, kwh, and the one in between at about 940.

Otherwise, it's been low hundred whs generation; typical start for solar generation is about 8AM, and my typical AH deficit is usually in the low to mid hundreds at that time...

However, I do run the Honda relatively frequently as I attempt to enhance my SGR on my batteries, and it could be that the inverter-charger (Xantrex 2000XC) throttles the solar controller via its input...

However, I also force equalization in the panels, to raise the voltage, and if the genset isn't running, occasionally see 8-12A in that mode...

But seriously, given that most estimates/studies (not necessarily in summer angles of presentation of the panels) allow for at most 6 hours of useful gain, and some very small portion of best-case output over the day, to AVERAGE 25A suggests 2 sizeable panels...

 

[rslifkin]

Most general rules of thumb indicate that for panels laying flat on a boat, you can figure you'll get somewhere around equivalent to 4 hours of full output. A lot of actual results I've seen posted come close, with some variance for location and time of year. So with 720 watts, calculating based on 14 volts (as an average between absorb and float voltage), that comes up to 205 amp hours. I'd expect less in the winter up north and possibly more in the summer.

 

[mvweebles]

I wanna know which two panels you got and where you're located.

I have 2x360 SunPower panels (nominal efficiency in the mid-20s) on my arch, and am in relatively tropical (27N) waters.

There are times when I get over 25A.

But I've probably (dunno for absolute certainty as I only recently upgraded to a recording solar controller) only had 150AH in a day in full sun in summer in the Bahamas. This from a system which hypothetically could make 60A...

But in the winter, my Honda (I took out my genset, for similar reasons, and also my AC, the only reason for having it) gets a lot of work, keeping my 12V 870AH 4xL16H-AC Trojan FLAs happy). It's running right now...

Just in case you wondered, I *have* (on one occasion, only, though I don't sit and watch the meter full time; see above about recording controllers) seen 50A for a few minutes one day in the early spring when brand new...

So, what system do you have which reliably delivers 150AH from two panels?

Pictures: Flying Pig 2015-2018 Shake-and-Break-Down/Electrical Upgrade

You really should be seeing a lot more than you're getting.

I've installed two prior solar systems, one on a condo on Mexico where the panels are flat just as they are on most trawler hard tops. I see a consistent average of 4x rated watts per day - twice as high in summer than winter. You're seeing around 2.5x.....in the summer when you should be well above.

Are your two panels co-planer with one another, and are they on the same MPPT controller or two?

Peter

 

[skipgundlach]

Hi, Peter,

These are relatively flat (~10 degrees for self-cleaning), and paralleled into a Victron 100-50.

At this time of year, we're ~40 degrees below overhead sun at best, and there's an abominable cloud level, leading to little output, comparatively to higher sun angles (~4 degrees end of June), with the accompanying much-more sun.

You can see the installation here:
Pictures: Flying Pig 2015-2018 Shake-and-Break-Down/Electrical Upgrade/Solar

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. s. (OP). While you've been presented with a plethora of options, ONE hasn't yet been mentioned. Why not simply buy another boat? Remember all the fun you had finding your current boat?

 

[mvweebles]

Paralleled with a 100/50 will cap your output at 50 amps. You may want to try series. Also, depending on distance from your panels to the MPPT, you may want to check your wire size. Running in parallel at 50A is a pretty hefty current. You could easily be losing 10% there if you're running 10 awg wire. Attached is a wire gauge chart.

Nice arch by the way.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

Hi, Peter,

These are relatively flat (~10 degrees for self-cleaning), and paralleled into a Victron 100-50.

At this time of year, we're ~40 degrees below overhead sun at best, and there's an abominable cloud level, leading to little output, comparatively to higher sun angles (~4 degrees end of June), with the accompanying much-more sun.

You can see the installation here:
Pictures: Flying Pig 2015-2018 Shake-and-Break-Down/Electrical Upgrade/Solar

BTW - if running a second set of cables is possible, I'd opt for a second MPPT. The Victron 100/50 is around $300. Not chump change, but given what you've probably got into that beautiful arch, probably not a deal breaker. Will eliminate any contention from partial shading of one panel.

 

[rslifkin]

Series or parallel will give capped output with the 100/50 controller, as it can only put out 50 amps to the batteries regardless of input voltage. And those panels are already high enough voltage to get an early start in the morning without needing to be in series.

 

[mvweebles]

Series or parallel will give capped output with the 100/50 controller, as it can only put out 50 amps to the batteries regardless of input voltage. And those panels are already high enough voltage to get an early start in the morning without needing to be in series.

Parallel the panels have potential for almost 60A. Series the potential drops to 30A, well within the range of the Victron 100/50 (FYI for others reading - 100/50 means max of 100v and 50A).

 

[skipgundlach]

Series or parallel will give capped output with the 100/50 controller, as it can only put out 50 amps to the batteries regardless of input voltage. And those panels are already high enough voltage to get an early start in the morning without needing to be in series.

Following this and another comment above for expansion:

First correction of a misconception:

50 or more amps is the output, not the input. O/C amps from my current panels is ~6.5A, making a total max of 13-ish amps down to the controller. So an earlier comment about wire size isn't 'real'...

The originals were 12V 120W Kyoceras in series, so the installer used #6 wire to a BlueSky 60A controller. I was cautioned by the Blue Sky rep against doing series for my upgrade because of the total voltage; they top out at close to 70V, and 140 was the top of that one.

With the higher voltages (and accompanying lower amps), that line is ample.

I'm aware that the most output I'd see from the Victron will be 50A. That alone is unique (I've never seen over mid-40s since that single shot of the topped - not pegged - reading; it wobbled very slightly over and under that displayed 50A as I was shooting the pic) analog meter.

Research and contacts told me that excess capacity (small - not, say, 100A) would just be electronically ignored in the output, and could handle - I think I recall - a 15% overage routinely.

Cabling out to the battery is VERY (mabye 3-4 feet) short, and #4 cable...

When I was swamped, the original controller was toasted, literally, as it tried to catch fire due to salt water contamination. It was the Victron which replaced it. I like the ability to electronically look in on it over bluetooth

 

[mvweebles]

Looks like you're leaving 30%-40% of watts on the table somewhere. You may want to ping CruisersForum with your panel specs, cable size, cable length, etc. There are some total solar geeks over there that will give a very informed opinion.

Peter

 

[Insequent]

I have 6 x 345W SunPower panels, and occasionally have seen 160A.

Seasonal conditions, mostly sun angle in the sky, has an impact. In the attached graph, although the Great Barrier Reef (GBR) daily totals were from when I was closer to the equator, summer further south of the equator gave better output on average.

 

[HopCar]

You guys sound like a bunch of blow boaters with all this talk of solar panels and fuel cells. Next you’ll be adding wind mills and towed generators. Real men use internal combustion engines.