Fun New West Marine Policy

[Bmarler]

WM made the decision easy for me to shop elsewhere when they sent me a letter regarding my CG Auxiliary Port Supply account. The letter said while they value my service to the boating public and country, blah, blah they were closing the account. If they truly valued my service to the boating public and country they would not have closed my Port Supply account. They were still making money on the purchases I made through Port Supply but apparently not enough money to value my service. I had the account for over 15 years so there wasn’t any new setup costs involved, just not making as much money on my purchases as they wanted. Now they make no money off me. Maybe if they had not said how much they valued my service and just said they were closing the account I wouldn’t have been so pissed at WM.

i'm a port supply customer as well. i wonder why they closed your account? i haven't used them nearly as much as i used to for some time now. i've moved most of my purchasing through fisheries supply. the convenience of the west marine store being so close is nice, but if i didn't get my port supply pricing i would only go there in an emergency.

 

[AlaskaProf]

If your West Marine purchase does not meet your needs or expectations, package your unused item in its original packaging with proof of purchase.


You're supposed to determine whether a pump works or not by just taking it out of the box and staring at it???


--Peggie

This is where it gets tricky: without "installing" it, I touched the leads to my 12v jumper pack, pressed the test button ( a nice feature the salesperson was eager to point out) and it whirred merrily along. Never occurred to me to look to see if the impeller was keeping up with the motor. ...until I did the forbidden and installed it.

 

[Comodave]

i'm a port supply customer as well. i wonder why they closed your account? i haven't used them nearly as much as i used to for some time now. i've moved most of my purchasing through fisheries supply. the convenience of the west marine store being so close is nice, but if i didn't get my port supply pricing i would only go there in an emergency.

The letter did not give a reason for closing the account. Just that they valued my service, which obviously wasn’t true.

 

[Peter B]

Last week (actually five days ago) I bought a replacement bilge pump at the West Anacortes store. Hooked it to temporary 12v source and pressed the test; ran fine. Installed, it buzzed but pumped no water. Impeller rotated freely on the drive shaft...or vice versa.

So I returned it to the Tacoma store today and they made the refund very grudgingly. I was advised that they no longer give ANY warranty for any product they sell.

"This policy is clearly stated on our website."

Sorry, I haven't looked at all the posts on this, as it runs to 5 pages, but under Australian legislation, a seller is not allowed by law to negate a warranty no matter where or how they say they can. Any product sold must be fit for purpose. I am a bit surprised that similar legislation is not the norm in the US.

 

[STB]

Sorry, I haven't looked at all the posts on this, as it runs to 5 pages, but under Australian legislation, a seller is not allowed by law to negate a warranty no matter where or how they say they can. Any product sold must be for for purpose. I am a bit surprised that similar legislation is not the norm in the US.

They aren't really negating the warranty. The warranty is provided by the manufacturer who will provide repair or replacement, but it may take time.

West Marine had previously arranged with vendors to be able to replace many warranty items on location for their customers. It is this practice, that many of us had grown accustomed to and expected, that they have stopped. But it was never, to my memory, their promise or policy. Just something they did.

But, there were reportedly a greater than fair share of bad apple customers taking advantage of this to exchange used things for new ones and the biggest part of the cost fell to the vendors rather than West Marine.

In a world that is increasingly price vs service competitive, West Marine apparently used their buying power to get or maintain lower wholesale prices -- sacrificing the ability to do these types of "courtesy" exchanges in the process. Or, so I was told.

 

[BandB]

They aren't really negating the warranty. The warranty is provided by the manufacturer who will provide repair or replacement, but it may take time.

West Marine had previously arranged with vendors to be able to replace many warranty items on location for their customers. It is this practice, that many of us had grown accustomed to and expected, that they have stopped. But it was never, to my memory, their promise or policy. Just something they did.

But, there were reportedly a greater than fair share of bad apple customers taking advantage of this to exchange used things for new ones and the biggest part of the cost fell to the vendors rather than West Marine.

In a world that is increasingly price vs service competitive, West Marine apparently used their buying power to get or maintain lower wholesale prices -- sacrificing the ability to do these types of "courtesy" exchanges in the process. Or, so I was told.

We need to keep in mind that is exactly what West Marine did in this case, provided a refund. They whined, said it wasn't policy, said they didn't have to, but did it. Would they do the same next time? I don't know.

 

[BandB]

Sorry, I haven't looked at all the posts on this, as it runs to 5 pages, but under Australian legislation, a seller is not allowed by law to negate a warranty no matter where or how they say they can. Any product sold must be fit for purpose. I am a bit surprised that similar legislation is not the norm in the US.

As I responded earlier:

Our Aussie friend asks about statutory warranty. In the US, the Uniform Commercial Code includes an "implied warranty of merchantability". However, there are many ways that can be altered or excluded. West Marine alters it by including 8 exceptions including anything that has been installed and directing you to the manufacturer.

 

[STB]

We need to keep in mind that is exactly what West Marine did in this case, provided a refund. They whined, said it wasn't policy, said they didn't have to, but did it. Would they do the same next time? I don't know.

In someone else's case, yes. In the case of my AC pumps, nope. They told me to call the vendor.

And the vendo, SeaFlo, never did get me replacements. After significant effort, I gave up before managing to extract them. Although, with more effort I probably could have.

 

[BandB]

In someone else's case, yes. In the case of my AC pumps, nope. They told me to call the vendor.

And the vendo, SeaFlo, never did get me replacements. After significant effort, I gave up before managing to extract them. Although, with more effort I probably could have.

That would point to another problem, inconsistent application of policy. Perhaps varied by vendor but no way for customer to know.

One problem is that West has no technical employees capable of checking out products, diagnosing problems or repairing. They aren't a service center so can't do warranty repairs. I would find that as a difficult situation. We have hardware stores but they're also service centers. Still to my way of thinking, to maintain credibility, West needs to accept return or exchange and handle the issue with their vendor. Difficult situation, but they need to figure it out.

 

[mvweebles]

Still to my way of thinking, to maintain credibility, West needs to accept return or exchange and handle the issue with their vendor. Difficult situation, but they need to figure it out.

First, thanks BandB for sharing your knowledge snd experience in retail. I appreciate your balanced guidance.

West Marine had it (warranty claims) figured out. It worked well for them, worked well well their customers, and likely nudged their vendors into better manufacturing processes to reduce defects. It's the same process the vast majority of B&M stores use including the likes of Home Depot who also do not have service centers. Retailers have a catch-all term "shrinkage" to account for such. This is not a case like LL Bean where people were fishing 40 year old Maine Hunting shoes out of a Goodwill bin and returning it to LL Bean for a full refund. Or returning a Christmas tree to Costco in March because it was dead. This is the case of a wayward retailer with a 10 year (20?) track record of whiplash strategy changes trying to cut costs by reducing shrinkage.

The problem with WM market approach in last 10-20 years is their business is not the same as Leslie's Pools. The WM products are not nearly as fungible. WM management has sought to position themselves as a differentiated product source without undertaking the hard work to actually deliver on their half of the bargain and have thusly disenfranchised their core customer base.

I'd be more impressed if the new guy had come from Starbucks or Chipotle, two retail examples who are deeply committed to being a lifestyle brand, than Leslie's.

BandB - I will reiterate my appreciation for your contributions to this thread and others. I don't know what your core business is, but clearly it's retail, likely hardware-based. I have been impressed with your consistent emphasis on employee well-being and laser focus on a fair and honest dialogue with your customers. You would have fit in well with the old WM. Now? Not so much.

Peter

 

[Datenight]

BandB - I will reiterate my appreciation for your contributions to this thread and others. I don't know what your core business is, but clearly it's retail, likely hardware-based. I have been impressed with your consistent emphasis on employee well-being and laser focus on a fair and honest dialogue with your customers. You would have fit in well with the old WM. Now? Not so much.

Peter[/QUOTE]

He may be just the person they need though it will be tough to change that corporate culture.

Rob

 

[BandB]

BandB - I will reiterate my appreciation for your contributions to this thread and others. I don't know what your core business is, but clearly it's retail, likely hardware-based. I have been impressed with your consistent emphasis on employee well-being and laser focus on a fair and honest dialogue with your customers. You would have fit in well with the old WM. Now? Not so much.

Peter

He may be just the person they need though it will be tough to change that corporate culture.

Rob[/QUOTE]

Well, one of the points being that they need a dramatic change. Whether their new owners will make that or not remains to be seen. They likely haven't implemented any true changes yet.

There is a tendency for new management to tread softly at first. In my opinion, that's well intentioned, but almost always wrong. You made the acquisition for a reason and likely anticipating you could make improvements.

Actually until the last 9 years my experience was manufacturing, not retail, but since we've been heavily involved in retail and now 70% retail. When acquiring hardware stores, and I use this example since it's as close as we come to West Marine, we've typically done four things within the first two weeks of ownership. 1-added employees. 2-added inventory (which includes rearranging store). 3-cleaned up yards, paved, etc. 4-planned a huge sales event. (Huge sales event is based on which vendors will participate with special deals). Also, a fifth thing sometimes, enlarged the store. How and why so quickly? How is easy as we had the numbers in advance. Of course, on top of that implemented all our policies and practices.

I imagine L Catterton had a vision for what they see happening to West. However, I can't speak as to how good of a plan they have yet. I also suspect they plan to do it too slowly thinking that's easier, but it never is.

Funny, in today's world how much easier it is too. All the data there. As to visuals, can have video of every inch of a store just by having someone wearing a camera walk around it. Outside is easily available even on Google Earth. Reviews are readily available.

Just for my personal entertainment, I decided to randomly pick a West Marine store and make initial observations. I chose 20th Street in Tacoma, Washington.

1-Lousy retail location. Just off I-5 but in wrong direction. Low traffic count. Only shoppers they'd ever get are those looking for them, no drive by, no recognition. Even 1/2 mile away on Pacific Hwy would be far better, near Granger or NAPA or around fast food or somewhere closer to the water. Also, lousy in that there can be no outside promotion, no tent sale, no items out front to get attention, nothing. Boating is outdoors, even in Tacoma.

2-No visibility, just one sign on building, nothing on street, nothing to attract you and reflective windows so you can't even see in. A passerby would have no idea what is there.

3-If you were going to be in that location, look for opportunity to expand to right side in adjacent space and potential for more signage. Store too small for products to be carried and promoted. See, I have no problem with paddleboards or the display of jackets but if you're going to devote space to them, you need more space.

4-No room for extra storage, parking of trailer for event or anything.

5-Walk in store and it's confusing. Paddleboards jump out and one side devoted to clothing. Displays of outboard motors and battery hook ups and as far as boat items, nothing professional. Empty shelves in some areas. Nothing indicating a sale of any type. Now I know the photos aren't current, but should always be a sale of something. Get manufacturer promotions. Garmin event this month and Yeti. You need events to draw new customers and to get old ones to stop by. I have no feel on the photos for what the business really is but then I don't think West knows. Items tossed in corner.

6-No signs or posters on front windows. Should be at least three or four products highlighted.

7-Short hours, 9 to 6. Ties in with not being in retail area. A marine supplier would open earlier and a retailer stay open later.

8-Overall reviews are good and speak well for employees. Just one called rude. Prices mentioned and criticized by some. Comment of looks being deceiving, a lot more inside than you'd expect. But overall impression is that employees of that store are pleasant and helpful.

9-Website still says they'll match Amazon but Amazon only, not third party sellers, which often confuses people and any retailers published prices within 50 miles.

10-I searched to find what was on sale. A Simrad sale. Not bad but I shouldn't have to search. Should be a huge sign on store and front page on web. And men's gaiters. That's it? Sure not going to get people flocking in.

Conclusion on store. Lousy location. No marketing. Lousy merchandising. Good employees. Recommendations. Consider moving. Signage and posters. Better displays. Monthly sales flyers and events sent to all former customers and advantage members. There is absolutely nothing to draw anyone to that store and it's not a store of convenience either.

That's one store, without ever actually going there or having an employee go there. However, still very telling. And only took 15 minutes. Very much what I'd expect from a dormant retailer.

Sort of reminds me of a small group of hardware stores we bought. They were previously operated by a good owner but far outside the company's normal area and got little attention. Not in areas of high population so not promoted heavily. Didn't participate in monthly sales events. Needed infusion of energy. Were profitable before but only marginally so. I'm sure West is much the same. Increase sales 20% and you'd likely increase profits 50%.

Basics of acquisitions. Stores worth more to buyer than to seller as buyer believes they can make more profitable. Doesn't happen without action. Cutting back is self defeating action. Must be aggressive action forward.

Now, for what is important. Dinner is ready.

 

[hmason]

If your West Marine purchase does not meet your needs or expectations, package your unused item in its original packaging with proof of purchase. West Advantage Rewards Members purchases do not require a receipt for refund or replacement

From the WM website. “Unused??”

 

[Comodave]

We need to keep in mind that is exactly what West Marine did in this case, provided a refund. They whined, said it wasn't policy, said they didn't have to, but did it. Would they do the same next time? I don't know.

But here is one of the problems. They did the right thing but they pissed off the customer in the process. So they lost on that interaction. They need to do the right thing graciously. Then they win with the customer. One happy customer may tell someone but an unhappy customer will tell everyone. And this thread is proof. An unhappy customer telling everyone.

 

[Russell Clifton]

For some reason when you walk into their stores they don't want you to know what's on sale. They change the price sticker on the shelf to reflect the sale price. No shelf talker of any kind. No way to see how much you are saving over the regular price. Nothing on the shelf that says it's on sale. So why discount the price, make a smaller profit margin, and not even let the customer know he is getting a deal? Definitely not retail people running that place. By the way, in my case the sale price was still higher than the regular price at Fisheries Supply.

 

[STB]

For the curious, copies of the 2016 and 2019 refund policies, captured from the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine, are attached here.

See the difference between then (either 2016 or 2019) and now? I could have captured policies earlier ir in between and, to my memory, they would have been essentially the same.

Forgive me for, in 2020, not noticing an unannounced policy change on their Web site -- from inside their store.

 

[BandB]

For the curious, copies of the 2016 and 2019 refund policies, captured from the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine, are attached here.

See the difference between then (either 2016 or 2019) and now? I could have captured policies earlier ir in between and, to my memory, they would have been essentially the same.

Forgive me for, in 2020, not noticing an unannounced policy change on their Web site -- from inside their store.

That was really a lousy policy before, opening them up to everything. Didn't even say original packaging or anything. Just you want to return it, you can. Now, their policy takes advantage of every possible exception so is very restrictive. They sure went from one extreme to another.

Here's what I wonder. They put the policy on shelves. I wonder how many stores you can walk around and find the old policy still on a shelf.

 

[STB]

Here is another one for you. They still serve up this page. It isn't from an archive. But, I don't think it is linked into their site anywhere.

This is the policy I remember seeing plastered all over the stores, but not recently.

And, yes, BandB, their old policy was very liberal, which is why, when mixed with some selfish people, some people treated them like a library and constantly exchanged stuff -- and why vendors reportesly lashed out at them for the highest RTV and NPF rates in the industry. For this, among other reasons, we now are where we are.

 

[SoWhat]

West Marine Observation - short version:
Jabsco 37038-1012 Solenoid Pricing

Amazon - $125.39. (Free shipping)
Defender - $139.99 + $8.50 Shipping
West Marine - $209.99 (Free shipping over $99)

Why would anyone in their right mind shop at West Marine? I can't think of anything I need instantly. I can wait for 2 day delivery. Return Policies? Location? Service? Advertising? Way down on the list of priorities if they can't get me in the store.

 

[SteveK]

2015-12 stores in Canada close.
https://boatingindustry.ca/index.ph...dian-store-closures-probable-future-web-focus

2017-This is what changed
https://www.stockwinners.com/blog/2017/06/29/west-marine-sold-for-338-million/

2021- Then this
https://www.macroaxis.com/invest/ratio/WMAR/Probability_Of_Bankruptcy

 

[backinblue]

My 2 cents is that it's not totally unusual for stores to not warranty electrical items (not like appliances or entertainment, but replacement items/components) because they can be damaged by the installer/user. Some auto part stores for instance are like that. But refusing to warranty ANYTHING is unheard of. West Marine is the next Blockbuster in my opinion. It's a shame, because they don't have a lot of competition, but my local store seems to have less inventory every time I need to go there. I think they know the end is near.

 

[hmason]

Fewer marine equipment items but more clothing and marine knick knacks.

 

[Seevee]

Wow, just read this thread, and unfortunately agree with most.


I'm one example of an "old" WM customer, and when they came out with their price matching deal, I was ready to give them my business. ONLY once did they honestly match a price and very rapidly changed their policy. They make it hard to do business, but really hope they get their act together and survive. Get back to boating and service.... and just come close to matching the price. I'd pay a premium for the service and convenience.



However, now I can get most of my boat parts from Amazon in less than 3 days no shipping costs and very easy return. I also use a few local small mom and pop suppliers that understand the retail business with good service reasonable prices an stock.


BandB,


Really appreciate your insights on the retail business models. Tell ya what.... why don't you by WM, steer it in the right direction and you'd have the whole TF group as starters!

 

[CaptTom]

I was wondering today whether the WM executives really know what their customers experience.

I had a part I needed (for a Jabsco manual head) and had time to go out of my way to where there's a West Marine. I'd already done some research, so I know there are a number of different repair kits. Plus, there are three generations of pump model, so you need to get the right version. WM wasn't very busy early on a Sunday, so an associate helped me right away.

He said they'd just organized the shelf where the Jabsco pump parts are kept, and of the dozens of options, only two were available. Neither was what I wanted. He went to a computer and, after a while, was able to confirm that the part I wanted could be ordered, and be there in a week or so.

I went home, ordered it on Amazon for about $10 less, and it'll be here tomorrow. Plus, I don't have to drive out of my way to WM's inconvenient location.

It got me thinking. What if WM had a way to track what each customer asked for, and whether or not they got what they came in for? There's an old saying in management; you get what you measure. I wonder what metrics WM is tracking.

 

[BandB]

BandB,


Really appreciate your insights on the retail business models. Tell ya what.... why don't you by WM, steer it in the right direction and you'd have the whole TF group as starters!

No thanks. I don't buy national companies. Was just FL but now into four states. Also, the cost of saving them is now huge and every month delayed only increases it. In fact, I'm not convinced the West Marine name is salvageable. I'd likely start by renaming, rebranding, starting it all over. I think the last group to buy it had a window of opportunity. I think L Catterton will somehow keep it going, but it won't grow and prosper.

I was wondering today whether the WM executives really know what their customers experience.

What if WM had a way to track what each customer asked for, and whether or not they got what they came in for? There's an old saying in management; you get what you measure. I wonder what metrics WM is tracking.

They likely know very little and need to do a lot of market research. All companies know far less than they think. The most difficult information to measure is the sale you don't get and I assure you that WM doesn't track customers who come in and don't buy in any detail at all.

 

[CaptTom]

They likely know very little and need to do a lot of market research. All companies know far less than they think. The most difficult information to measure is the sale you don't get and I assure you that WM doesn't track customers who come in and don't buy in any detail at all.

Which is what got me thinking.

The associates in many stores already carry phones or tablets. In WM, there are a number of computer terminals around the store.

What if there was an app which tracked some very simple metrics, like what the customer asked for and what (if anything) they ended up buying?

Of course it sounds simpler than it is. Staff would have to be motivated to use it, and use it honestly. Management would have to actually care, and approach the data with an open mind.

But maybe, just maybe, they'd figure out that people aren't flocking to WM to buy the latest outdoor fashion or the most expensive Yeti cooler, but looking for the stupid little parts that we need to maintain our boats.

 

[HTurner]

Which is what got me thinking.

The associates in many stores already carry phones or tablets. In WM, there are a number of computer terminals around the store.

What if there was an app which tracked some very simple metrics, like what the customer asked for and what (if anything) they ended up buying?

Of course it sounds simpler than it is. Staff would have to be motivated to use it, and use it honestly. Management would have to actually care, and approach the data with an open mind.

But maybe, just maybe, they'd figure out that people aren't flocking to WM to buy the latest outdoor fashion or the most expensive Yeti cooler, but looking for the stupid little parts that we need to maintain our boats.

Do you know of any retails stores that do this?

 

[BandB]

Do you know of any retails stores that do this?

I don't know of any nor would I consider it in a formal fashion as the last thing one wants is to divert attention from serving customers. However, our managers do ask the questions regularly of staff and make notes which they include in their reports. The two basic questions are what are customers looking for that we don't have and why are customers not buying when we do have.

However, you must be very careful not to ask customers too many questions. There is nothing more bothersome than to tell a sales person you're just looking and then be harassed. Also, if a customer chooses not to buy they don't want to be subjected to an inquisition. You even must be careful on cancellations and returns. Gather information volunteered but don't put customers on the witness stand.

Also, give primary attention to customer, not your tablet or phone.

 

[Shrew]

I haven't seen it mentioned, so apologize if this has already been discussed.

The 'Return Policy' being discussed is specifically around 'malfunctioning' products. WM will still take just about any return provided it's in the original packaging, and is not damaged or has clearly not been installed (e.g. not covered in 3M 4200 or appearing as though it has been in active service).

They take returns for items that are the wrong size, orientation, or if you simply bought too many. What we're talking about is an item that requires it be replaced under the 'manufacturers warranty'. West Marine is NOT the 'manufacturer' in most cases. They're not even the manufacturer for the items under the West Marine brand.

West Marine is now sending you directly to the manufacturer to handle warranty issues. This is the same 'official' policy as Defender, Home Depot, Lowe's, and many other large retail distributors.

The issue isn't West Marine. The issue is the various manufacturers honoring the warranty with West Marine. Their issue is they are left in the middle. They do want to provide customer service and want to see their customer's happy, so they accept the return. Then the manufacturer (usually the manufacturers rep.) won't honor the pile of returns.

If you owned a business and were in this situation, how you would you proceed?

Do you keep taking the returns and loosing the money?

Do you stop selling many manufacturer's products?

Do you simply accept the returns for items that can be re-shelved and re-sold and send the customer's to the manufactured to have the warranty honored??

The common sentiment is this is a huge corporation who can afford to take a few losses for the little guy. But then again, Sears was a giant. Before them Woolworth was on every Main Street.

 

[STB]

Shrew,

One of my concerns is that I paid extra for a part expecting that convenience, then they changed their policy without telling me and didn't change their price. I didn't get the service I expected as part of the package.

My second concern is that the stores' shelves seem to be bear, so it is increasingly not worth even looking to see if they have it. I could drive for an hour round trip plus time in the store and have a maybe 33% chance of finding what I am looking for and paying 10-25% (and sometimes 50% or more) more money to have it today. Or, I can order it from Defender and have it UPS Next Day, usually for less including shipping, without wasting the time. Or, I can save some money and get it in ~2 days by Amazon Prime or more money from Defender via ground shipping.

My third concern is that their average employee seems to have no time on the water in any time of boat and no time working on any type of boat. And, many are recent enough hires they can't even pass along what they've heard from other customers. So, I have little reason to go becuase I have a problem to see what they recommend or if they have any ideas or just to talk through it with someone.

Ultimately, easy warranty service was one of my last real reasons to go for things that aren't inexpensive convenience items as I happen to be passing by, anyway.